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Gardai carrying Guns

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    #452
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    monument wrote: »

    Police do not aim to wound, they aim to kill.

    No they don't. Police are trained to aim for the largest target on the body, the torso. Its not a question of shooting to injure or kill. If they were aiming to kill, they would shoot for the head, but they don't, there is too much risk of missing.


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    #453
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    dorkacle wrote: »
    I never said they do turn into murders? :confused:

    I never said you did, you stated it was a lack of faith in the Gardai that propagates the idea of the Gardai turning into murderers, I said it wasn't a lack of faith it was ignorance of firearms and how murders are committed.


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    #454
    dorkacle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭dorkacle


    Blay wrote: »
    I never said you did, you stated it was a lack of faith in the Gardai that propagates the idea of the Gardai turning into murderers, I said it wasn't a lack of faith it was ignorance of firearms and how murders are committed.

    Well the term 'murderer' is a bit of an extreme term, but if you suggests that it propagates the idea gardai killing people, well then yes that is true.

    And all it takes is one mistaken identity, or one innocent killed by a guard in an accident and the argument against armed guards is justified IMO.
    And to be honest, like many I suspect, I wouldn't be particularly keen to test it.

    Sure just google 'mistaken police killings in america' and you get a list of them.

    And even if it is an ignorance of firearms, so what? Nobody NEEDS a firearm IMO, so ignorance is irrelevant I would say...?


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    #455
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Blay wrote: »
    You can't really compare driving a car to using a firearm, with a gun you only have to move the first joint of your index finger and you have potentially taken someone's life, while driving a car is dangerous, it requires more than a slip of the index finger for something to go wrong.

    32,885 = number of road deaths in the US in 2010
    14,159 = number of gun deaths in the US in 2010

    240 = number of road deaths in Ireland in 2009
    58 = number of gun deaths in Ireland in 2009



    MarkMc wrote: »
    No they don't. Police are trained to aim for the largest target on the body, the torso. Its not a question of shooting to injure or kill. If they were aiming to kill, they would shoot for the head, but they don't, there is too much risk of missing.

    Fair enough.

    But if somebody aims around a scumbag's vital organs, the scumbag is going to try to kill them.


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    #456
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    monument wrote: »
    32,885 = number of road deaths in the US in 2010
    14,159 = number of gun deaths in the US in 2010

    240 = number of road deaths in Ireland in 2009
    58 = number of gun deaths in Ireland in 2009

    I'm not getting into a car vs. gun debate with you:rolleyes: The guards will get the proper training.


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    #457
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Blay wrote: »
    I'm not getting into a car vs. gun debate with you:rolleyes: The guards will get the proper training.

    If you say so.

    It must be the same way they all have gotten proper training for driving. :rolleyes:


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    #458
    freddiek
    Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭freddiek


    arming thick gombeen Gardai is a recipe for disaster and it wouldnt be too long before an innocent bystander got in the way of one of their bullets


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    #459
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    freddiek wrote: »
    arming thick gombeen Gardai is a recipe for disaster and it wouldnt be too long before an innocent bystander got in the way of one of their bullets

    Good to finally see reasoned debate on the thread:pac:


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    #460
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    monument wrote: »
    If you say so.

    It must be the same way they all have gotten proper training for driving. :rolleyes:

    Funny how the force managed to provide training in how to use a stick(ASP) and a can of pepper spray...but sure a stick is more dangerous than a gun:pac:


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    #461
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Blay wrote: »
    Funny how the force managed to provide training in how to use a stick(ASP) and a can of pepper spray...but sure a stick is more dangerous than a gun:pac:

    Sad how they have not been all trained how to drive cars at high speed in urban areas which is also a little more dangerous than pepper spray or a stick. :rolleyes:


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    #462
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    monument wrote: »
    Sad how they have not been all trained how to drive cars at high speed in urban areas which is also a little more dangerous than pepper spray or a stick. :rolleyes:

    Yes, an intelligent and relevant addition to this debate. If people like you called the shots the Gardai would only have a whistle.

    They were driving without licences...so what? They're now being shot at....should we let Gardai be murdered in the streets because some of them didn't hold a driving licence?

    You're clearly of the opinion that they won't get the training and that they'll just be handed a pistol...you're entitled to that opinion but the training given along with ASP and the pepper spray suggest you're wrong.


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    #463
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    dorkacle wrote: »
    And even if it is an ignorance of firearms, so what? Nobody NEEDS a firearm IMO, so ignorance is irrelevant I would say...?

    People are allowing what they see in movies to colour their image of reality, they think police draw their guns and just fire everywhere, when you pull the trigger there's a lot going on inside your head that isn't seen and you don't know that until you actually fire one. The sensationalism you read on here that the Gardai will start killing people just because they have firearms is an example of people thinking a gun in your hand suddenly turns you into a killer, it doesn't but most people here don't know someone who owns a legally held firearm so it doesn't click that guns don't always make murderers out of people.

    I don't know if that makes any sense as I haven't read it back but basically the Gardai won't turn into murderers because they have guns as people on here seem to think they will.


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    #464
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,016 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Blay wrote: »
    They were driving without licences...so what? They're now being shot at....should we let Gardai be murdered in the streets because some of them didn't hold a driving licence? FFS.
    Gardaí cannot drive an official vehicle without having the relevant licence, afaik. The issue here is whether the garda driving has received the relevant training for high-speed driving. A lot of gardaí have not been provided with this training, but are allowed to drive under something called 'Chief's permission' (i.e. formal permission from their Chief Superintendent).

    I think that, if the incidence of unarmed gardaí being confronted (or shot at) by wrongdoers armed with firearms is the deciding factor in whether all gardaí should be armed or not, it will never happen, just because it happens so rarely in comparison with their involvement with wrongdoers as a whole. It didn't happen during the Troubles, and it is not going to happen now.

    Not your ornery onager



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    #465
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    yes they should carry fire arms...

    Yes its fine all the doogooders saying no they shouldnt until its them or their house or family member getting held up.

    Ireland and its so called citizens need to cop on really and see whats happening.
    I do understand some think it would be bad as to follow the US would be bad too many guns and not so many people but sure hay.

    If I have to protect me or my family it has to be done and I mean that.


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    #466
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Esel wrote: »
    Gardaí cannot drive an official vehicle without having the relevant licence, afaik. The issue here is whether the garda driving has received the relevant training for high-speed driving. A lot of gardaí have not been provided with this training, but are allowed to drive under something called 'Chief's permission' (i.e. formal permission from their Chief Superintendent).

    I've heard it differently, there was a thread a while ago on Boards somewhere about Gardai driving without their licence on a Super's permission just because they needed the cars on the road...might have been about a Garda driving on a learner permit now that I think of it. It could have been an exceptional case or I may have picked it up wrong but I don't want to make this a thread about the Gardai and their driving habits so I won't go on about it. The fact is just because they didn't have driver training doesn't mean they won't have firearms training.


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    #467
    Locust
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    So another armed robbery in Portmarnock there the other day... And a guard on a mountain bike confronts them with not much more than a bicycle pump gets shot at...??

    I think its absolutely ridiculous. Completely insane than Gardai arent routinely armed.

    That Guard should have the capability to defend himself, proportionate to whats out there today. Every week we read about criminals with firearms now in our news. Society has moved on from the auld fashioned 1960's community guards, we're now dealing with armed and organised gangs...

    I doubt that robber would have fired at Guard if the Guard was armed, if he did he more than likely the guard would have shouted warnings and returned fire and he would have been shot dead, a lawful killing. I think there would be an outcry about the killing by the papers but the majority of the public would support the Gardai. After all he was the bad guy.


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    #468
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Blay wrote: »
    Yes, an intelligent and relevant addition to this debate. If people like you called the shots the Gardai would only have a whistle.

    With this being your kind of logic, if I was calling the shots, I'd be restricting you to a whistle.

    Blay wrote: »
    They're now being shot at....

    Gardai were shot at before now, what exactly has changed that justifies changing the very nature of our police force with great expense we can't afford.

    Blay wrote: »
    You're clearly of the opinion that they won't get the training and that they'll just be handed a pistol...

    You're clearly wrong.

    Blay wrote: »
    you're entitled to that opinion but the training given along with ASP and the pepper spray suggest you're wrong.

    The lack of advanced driving training 5 years after it was heavily criticised tells a different story.

    It's not just the most basic one-off training we want for armed gardai -- it's high quality and on-going.

    Locust wrote: »
    I doubt that robber would have fired at Guard if the Guard was armed, if he did he more than likely the guard would have shouted warnings and returned fire and he would have been shot dead, a lawful killing. I think there would be an outcry about the killing by the papers but the majority of the public would support the Gardai. After all he was the bad guy.

    Can you honestly reread that and still say that you doubt that robber would shoot?


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    #469
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    Great news today, the second guy has been arrested in relation to the armed robbery in Portmarnock yesterday. Well done to the boys in blue.


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    #470
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,824 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Re: the chiefs permission. Firstly, it's gone, and has been replaced with a 1 day course. The official driving course is 2 weeks (for car only). Those driving the patrol cars now are fully licensed with at least the 1 day course done. If you don't have it, you cannot drive the cars, full stop.

    When chiefs was in, you had to have a full, clean licence before the chief would even consider you. And, no chief would put a learner driver or someone on a provisional licence into an official car. It's a massive insurance claim waiting to happen, and the chief's job would be on the line if they did so. (If i can be proven that this did happen, i will refute).

    As for the gun training, the training a Garda would receive would be well beyond what someone in the general public would receive (if guns were legalised for all). Most gun ranges teach you the basic safety and use policies, but the Gardai would receive a lot more than that, including psychological understanding, and reading of the suspect with the gun. It will also attempt to train you on what you might feel after shooting someone. You won't get that as a citizen, as citizens would not be taught to shoot someone. Also, if a Garda's aim deteriorates over time, their gun card would be taken off them.

    Any Garda trained in the use of firearms is highly trained, with a mental check-list to be completed before even considering taking out the firearm.


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    #471
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,016 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    If it can be proven that this did happen, i will refute.
    If it is proven, you couldn't refute it... :)

    Not your ornery onager



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    #472
    deRanged
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭deRanged


    thanks for the clarification on the driving, Potential-Monke. One thing that concerns me about Gardai being routinely armed is the training aspect.
    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    When chiefs was in, you had to have a full, clean licence before the chief would even consider you. And, no chief would put a learner driver or someone on a provisional licence into an official car.

    I had a vague memory of a Garda involved in a fatal crash driving on an expired provisional. Once I looked it up, it turned out that although he was on duty, he was not driving an official car. (link)

    Back in 2006, a question was asked in the Dail ((link) as to how many Gardai were driving on Chiefs. it was over 2000, which seems an awfully high number to me.

    I'd like all Gardai carrying firearms to be highly trained, with sufficient refresher courses, every 6 months or annually or whatever is required to keep a very high standard.

    I've no hope at all that this country will resource the Gardai sufficiently to allow this to happen. Chiefs is gone, and that's great, but it's been replaced with a 1 day course. That's still not the proper training no matter how you look at it.

    I don't like the idea of Gardai not being adequately trained for driving, and I really dislike the idea of inadequately trained Gardai carrying firearms.
    I'd be concerned that a solution would be found, that would lead to shorter courses or special dispensation. There's precedent for this, unfortunately.


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    #473
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,824 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    deRanged wrote: »
    I don't like the idea of Gardai not being adequately trained for driving, and I really dislike the idea of inadequately trained Gardai carrying firearms.
    I'd be concerned that a solution would be found, that would lead to shorter courses or special dispensation. There's precedent for this, unfortunately.

    There are a few points i left out about the driving which i can't go into, but sufficed to say that no Garda is driving in a manner in which they are not trained to.

    And while they may cut some corners with the driving (the 1 day course is intended as a stop gap until further full courses become available), but they would never cut a firearms course. Everyone that has a full licence would have some experience and ability to drive, whereas next to no one would have experience in shooting a pistol, so they couldn't cut the corners.


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    #474
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    There's a tad of a difference between allowing someone to operate an official car (remember, these Gardaí are trained cops and have also earned their driving licence) versus handing guns to Gardaí without proper training. It simply wouldn't be allowed to happen, and frankly to suggest otherwise, especially in a country where gun laws are already incredibly stringent, is lunacy.


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    #475
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    I think a lot of people forget, or maybe just do not know, that there are ALREADY quite a few Garda who carry guns while on duty.
    They just do not walk around waving them about for all to see, because they are discreet about it and rarely are they drawn and used, unless absolutely necessary.
    So, I presume that they HAVE been given the proper training and assesment before being let out with them on their person.
    For me its not a question of "Should the Garda be Armed?", as quite a few already are, rather that "Should the rest of them or more of them now carry guns?"


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    #476
    Locust
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    monument wrote: »
    Can you honestly reread that and still say that you doubt that robber would shoot?

    Having an armed cop is a massive deterrent

    If you were to put yourself in the shoes of a robber can you honestly say that you would shoot at a trained armed police officer? The point of using a weapon during a robbery is to put fear into the people you are robbing - when the police turn up at the scene - actually using the gun on them is either death or a lengthy sentence. When it gets to that point most people with any sense drop the gun and surrender. Its crazy that our first responders don't have that capability.

    I know we may be dealing with cracked up junkies but it must run through even the thickest skulls that pointing a gun at an armed officer will most likely get you killed.


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    #477
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Locust wrote: »
    Having an armed cop is a massive deterrent
    Doesn't seem to be a 'massive deterrent' in the USA.


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    #478
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be a 'massive deterrent' in the USA.

    What s/he said.


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    #479
    pah
    Registered Users Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭pah


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be a 'massive deterrent' in the USA.

    How so?


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    #480
    Locust
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be a 'massive deterrent' in the USA.

    Yeah lets pick the maddest country in the world... wait comparing the gun culture and numerous 'issues' the USA has to tiny Ireland is an exercise in futility. That comment doesn't hold water. The US is an abnormal society compared to ours, arguably governed by fear.

    Look at somewhere closer to home, within the EU - How many French or German cops attending the scene of an incident have been shot?


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    #481
    Locust
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    Here let me help :- A few stats German population is over 80 million people and the police fired just 85 shots for 2011. Of the 85, 49 were warnings shots, 36 were aimed shots at criminal suspects, 15 people were injured, and 6 were killed
    http://rt.com/usa/news/us-germany-85-shots-022/

    Crime in Germany
    http://www.nationmaster.com/country/gm-germany/cri-crime

    I firmly believe those stats would be worse if they were an unarmed police service


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