Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread II

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd agree with him if either of EOM or Fitz weren't injured. But they are, so I'm pretty happy to see a stop-gap covering player being signed. It's effectively an injury-cover player, along the lines of Thorn, except we're covering the second string instead of the first.

I'd assume (hope) that if EOM or Fitzy were fit then Goodman wouldn't have been signed.

Beery Eyed

While these signings can be argued as necessary for cover, etc. I don't think anyone can argue that short term cover signings merely paper over the cracks in terms of the lack of depth available to the provinces.

We have an abundance of guys playing a standard of rugby (AIL) that is not high enough to be the next tier down from provincial level. If the best of these players were regularly playing a condensed, high level of rugby with all of the fringe provincial players, we could decrease the need for these type of short term signings from abroad. However, as long as the gap remains between provincial level and the next tier down, then these signings will always be the first choice of a provincial coach who is looking for experienced backup.

totallegend

ed7890 wrote: »

Tokula was a waste, but Chambers (the Aussie guy) was a good player. He was important cover to have in the HEC group games while Earls was injured. At 23 as well, he was worth having over, if he had wanted to stay I think he would have been kept.

OK, I don't agree (and he was signed before Earls got injured), but this is the Leinster thread so...

roycon

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8923872159619284786

Blast from the recent past Christian Warner running amok...

leftleg

roycon wrote: »

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8923872159619284786

Blast from the recent past Christian Warner running amok...

lol nice conversion by d'arcy at 13!!!

GerM

Warner was an underrated player, I was always thought. He took a little flak from people unnecessarily. Very nice footballer and was quite silky from 10-13. Did well out of Leinster with 6 years as a pro rugby player here but rarely let anyone down and always got on with the task at hand. Nice video.

totallegend

GerM wrote: »

Warner was an underrated player, I was always thought. He took a little flak from people unnecessarily. Very nice footballer and was quite silky from 10-13. Did well out of Leinster with 6 years as a pro rugby player here but rarely let anyone down and always got on with the task at hand. Nice video.

Another victim of the collective Irish perception that if you can't kick goals, you can't be a #10, but yeah, he was a decent player without ever really being a superstar.

Fireball07

About the superstars or nothing wrt NIQs, I disagree. Firstly if you're signing only superstars, they're going to be on big wages... Ideally the provinces would be made up completely of IQ players and we do seem to be heading towards that way in general.

But it's more about filling voids rather than just signing top class players. For example the prop situation...Neither Du Preez nor Van Der Merwe, nor White last season could have been classified as superstars but they perform a role within the squad that Irish players couldn't.

Superbus

roycon wrote: »

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8923872159619284786

Blast from the recent past Christian Warner running amok...

Nostalgia from Google Video as well.

totallegend

Superbus wrote: »

Nostalgia from Google Video as well.

Think I'll post it on my MySpace page!

WeeBushy

I used to be friends with Cameron Jowitt on Bebo!

leftleg

WeeBushy wrote: »

I used to be friends with Cameron Jowitt on Bebo!

Bebo!! remember that

CIARAN_BOYLE

Does anyone know how often fringe and academy Leinster players actually line out in the AIL.

I'll be honest and I admit that I don't follow the AIL much. I'll occasionally check scores and see how the leagues are looking but other than that I don't bother with it.

A friend of mine told me this morning that O'Shea and Reid played around 10 games each last season for Clontarf. I know they each got a few Leinster and Leinster A caps but surely they should be playing more than AIL games a season.

Is he right about the number of games they played and are there other Leinster academy players with a similar low number of AIL games.

Podge_irl

Leinster seem to prefer their players to play less in the AIL then other provinces.

GerM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

A friend of mine told me this morning that O'Shea and Reid played around 10 games each last season for Clontarf. I know they each got a few Leinster and Leinster A caps but surely they should be playing more than AIL games a season.

I only went to 3 or 4 Tarf games but that seems about right using those games as an indicator. Reid was on the bench for a few games and came on. COS was involved more often I reckon due to him not being involved as much with Leinster. Reid played 12 or 13 times last season for Leinster between the senior and A side. He wouldn't be available to start for Clontarf on those weekends which massively reduces the games he's available for. The same would apply for a lot of the fringe and academy players.

[Jackass]

I think Goodman is just utility to cover 10 - 13, but I very much doubt he's ahead f Mad Dog for the 10 jersey and can cover 12 / 13 in case of injury, such as EOM, or if McFadden is on the wing, it leaves us thin there. Especially during 6 nations when our midfield options could be missing D'Arcy, BOD & McFadden, that leaves very little cover, as well as having no recognised back-up 10 during the internationals. Makes sense really. It's even possible Madigan could be in the 6 nations squad, leaving us with no 10, having to rely on Read (!!) or Nacewa (!).

I like to see foreign players kept to a minimum and youth trusted to the maximum, but as a bridging player I think it's fair enough for one season anyway.

Beery Eyed

With Leinster's signings now seemingly completed, I can't help but be slightly worried about their options at centre next season. Not at Rabo level, but for the Heineken cup.

I know BOD on his day is still one of the best centres in Europe, but we can't allow sentimentality to come into it and the fact is that age is now against him. He missed a large part of last season and there's no guarantee that won't happen again. He will also invariably lose some pace and there are some really impressive centres with other top teams in Europe that will cause him problems.

Even more so I would say this applies to D'Arcy. Again, he has been immense for a long time, both for Ireland and Leinster, but this past season there were times where he looked badly outclassed. In fairness to him, he also proved me wrong on many occasions when I had nearly written him off, but another season is a long time and he may be in for a tough time in the big matches next year.

The issue is similar to that of Munster's second row. For so long Leinster's centre pairing have been an area of real strength and a focal point for the team. However, with both players of a similar age and their successors not quite coming up to their high standards yet, this could now become one of the main areas of concern.

McFadden & O'Malley have both played reasonably well and 'held their own' when playing Heineken cup previously. While this is a positive for backup players, both have aspirations to be starting the big European games and I haven't seen enough to suggest that they can be game breakers at this level. Not saying they're bad players, but perhaps not the standard needed to be winning Heineken cups.

It's a tough situation to manage and I understand that. None of the current guys would be too pleased at all to see another top class centre arriving and challenging their place. Ultimately though Leinster will be looking to challenge for the Heineken cup again this season, and in some respects a top class signing at 12 would have made them an even more formidable prospect (while admittedly being harsh on D'Arcy & McFadden).

roycon

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Does anyone know how often fringe and academy Leinster players actually line out in the AIL.

I'll be honest and I admit that I don't follow the AIL much. I'll occasionally check scores and see how the leagues are looking but other than that I don't bother with it.

A friend of mine told me this morning that O'Shea and Reid played around 10 games each last season for Clontarf. I know they each got a few Leinster and Leinster A caps but surely they should be playing more than AIL games a season.

Is he right about the number of games they played and are there other Leinster academy players with a similar low number of AIL games.

There arent many games played in the AIL in a season as in say the pro 12 so 10 is quite a lot. If your playing ireland 20s then the most AIL games its possible to play is about 10. Take sam coughlan murray this year for example he played about 10 and when he wasnt there he was playing leinster and ireland 20s and 2/3 times for leinster A.

Leinster dont let players play leinster League at all. And often pull players from AIL because of slight injuries/stiffness. Theyre generally less reluctant with forwards and particularly with Props they encourage them to get as much game time as possible in the AIL. They prefer to half the younger academy and sub academy players in training with the firsts and concentrating on conditioning and getting them in the professional mindset.

It does matter to them though - for example they made Ian mcKinley move form ucd to marys because marys were playing 2 divisions ahead at the time and he had sexton/madigan etc competing with him so it would be tough to get game time even for leisnter A

profitius

Foxtrol wrote: »

I’ve heard it said before that when people say “I hear what you’re saying” it quite often means that they haven’t listened to a word the other person has said and your post is a clear example of it.

Several posters have stated why this is a necessary signing but rather than give reasons why they are wrong you just call it “ridiculous” and then compare it to a Munster signing that isn’t even similar. I’m all for giving young players as many chances as possible and I have full faith in Schmidt to do just that, especially given how cheap a wage Goodman will be coming over on.

I've said before what I think about these signings.

I'm looking at it from an Ireland point of view. I do care about the provinces being successful but I think we're putting the cart before the horse in this country. There needs to be a better balance. As well as Kidney, this is also part of the reason Ireland are hanging onto 8th in the rankings.

The super rugby teams wouldn't be allowed do what the provinces are doing. If this player is only going to play a few games then whats the point. Nacewa, Cathal Marsh etc could fill in for a few games.

It also highlights another problem. That is the lack of player movement between provinces. Scott Deasy or JJ Hanrahan could have gone on loan for a few months not to mention James McKinney who left Ulster. Theres a bunch of AIL players who could also fill in.

Podge_irl

AIL players are not professional rugby players and can't just slot in, especially not in a high level game.

Ireland are not struggling based on who Leinster's third choice outhalf is.

danthefan

Podge_irl wrote: »

AIL players are not professional rugby players and can't just slot in, especially not in a high level game.

Ireland are not struggling based on who Leinster's third choice outhalf is.

Yeah it's a ridiculous suggestion saying bring in an AIL player tbh, particularly if it's someone who has nothing to do with a province/isn't in the academy. Playing an Irish player who is patently never going to play for Ireland is no different than playing an NIQ.

There are reasons against this signing for sure but the AIL has nothing to do with it.

As for getting a player on loan for a few months - wtf is the point of that?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Did any posters here acknowledge the need for a 10/12 before the signing was announced? I think its a case of there being the spot and cash available, so Leinster brought a player in to fill a hole that might end up existing. There should be plenty of semi-pro lads in the AIL that could make the step up if needed.

danthefan wrote: »

As for getting a player on loan for a few months - wtf is the point of that?

It worked out with Brad Thorn anyway...

CIARAN_BOYLE

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Did any posters here acknowledge the need for a 10/12 before the signing was announced? I think its a case of there being the spot and cash available, so Leinster brought a player in to fill a hole that might end up existing. There should be plenty of semi-pro lads in the AIL that could make the step up if needed.

Well I said a utility back who could play 12 would be nice. Its not a necessity though.

Hagz

I certainly wasn't calling for it but it's a valid signing in my opinion. How many other clubs would be happy with the possibility of having to play a 10 and 12 who are both in the Academy and a 13 who's still young and inexperienced.
It would be like Munster playing
10. Deasy (not really a like for like comparison as Reid is still in the academy and Deasy has played a lot for Munster)
12. Hircock
13. Dineen
with a back-up from AIL.

I do agree that an alternative could have been signed from another province, but then would it be in the interest of the player?, as Leinster clearly just want a disposable utility back that will be used in one year.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Hagz wrote: »

I certainly wasn't calling for it but it's a valid signing in my opinion. How many other clubs would be happy with the possibility of having to play a 10 and 12 who are both in the Academy and a 13 who's still young and inexperienced.
It would be like Munster playing
10. Deasy (not really a like for like comparison as Reid is still in the academy and Deasy has played a lot for Munster)
12. Hircock
13. Dineen
with a back-up from AIL.

I do agree that an alternative could have been signed from another province, but then would it be in the interest of the player?, as Leinster clearly just want a disposable utility back that will be used in one year.

Replace Deasy with Quinn McDonagh maybe

Cpt_Blackbeard

Hagz wrote: »

I certainly wasn't calling for it but it's a valid signing in my opinion. How many other clubs would be happy with the possibility of having to play a 10 and 12 who are both in the Academy and a 13 who's still young and inexperienced.
It would be like Munster playing
10. Deasy (not really a like for like comparison as Reid is still in the academy and Deasy has played a lot for Munster)
12. Hircock
13. Dineen
with a back-up from AIL.

I do agree that an alternative could have been signed from another province, but then would it be in the interest of the player?, as Leinster clearly just want a disposable utility back that will be used in one year.

Assuming the unlikely situation of all of Sexton, Madigan, D'Arcy, BOD, McFadden and Fitzgerald being involved in an Irish squad. Leinster would still have Nacewa, Macken and EOM from the first team squad available to fill in at 10/12/13. That's before you begin to look at giving some gametime to academy players/playing wingers (or Boss) in the centre.

I'd gladly see Munster play the following in some dead-rubber PRO12 game:
10: Deasy/Hanrahan
12/13: Barnes/Dineen/Hanrahan/Murphy/Hurley/Smith/Hircock

Hagz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Assuming the unlikely situation of all of Sexton, Madigan, D'Arcy, BOD, McFadden and Fitzgerald being involved in an Irish squad. Leinster would still have Nacewa, Macken and EOM from the first team squad available to fill in at 10/12/13. That's before you begin to look at giving some gametime to academy players/playing wingers (or Boss) in the centre.

EOM is injured but I suppose you're right. But still, I can't see how the signing hinders anyone and I can see why it has been made. I just can't see who this fella Goodman is going to hold back..
In fact, I can see most of his games being played in the B&I cup where we are going to need an outside centre. Again, he's not going to hold back an outside centre if he plays in the B&I cup because we have no outside centre in the Academy. The whole AIL argument doesn't really makes sense to me. I mean if you're to look at things realistically, the signing of Goodman is not going to hold back some diamond in the ruff playing in the AIL.

irishbucsfan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Hagz wrote: »

I certainly wasn't calling for it but it's a valid signing in my opinion. How many other clubs would be happy with the possibility of having to play a 10 and 12 who are both in the Academy and a 13 who's still young and inexperienced.
It would be like Munster playing
10. Deasy (not really a like for like comparison as Reid is still in the academy and Deasy has played a lot for Munster)
12. Hircock
13. Dineen
with a back-up from AIL.

I do agree that an alternative could have been signed from another province, but then would it be in the interest of the player?, as Leinster clearly just want a disposable utility back that will be used in one year.

Replace Deasy with Quinn McDonagh maybe

Or Hanrahan?

Top level AIL level players are a long way off being good enough to play for Leinster.

GerM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Assuming the unlikely situation of all of Sexton, Madigan, D'Arcy, BOD, McFadden and Fitzgerald being involved in an Irish squad. Leinster would still have Nacewa, Macken and EOM from the first team squad available to fill in at 10/12/13. That's before you begin to look at giving some gametime to academy players/playing wingers (or Boss) in the centre.

EOM and Fitz are both unavailable until 2013. There are 7 games that clash with international players being restricted in 2012. None of Nacewa, Macken or EOM are inside centres (EOM and Macken both wore 12 once but were swapping to the outside channel throughout) and Nacewa has very little experience at 10 in a long, long time. We have two academy players for inside centre in Noel Reid and Collie O'Shea with a grand total of 4 starts between them. It would be great if they were ready but no academy player is going to play 5 games in a row at the start of the season when they're untested to a large degree.

There's also the idea that provinces need to use these NIQ spots. The IRFU is strengthening their position on restricting foreign signings. If provinces start operating without them when they're available to them, the IRFU will have a fairly cast iron case for further reducing the numbers when the provinces might want/need to make signings in the future.

The idea of moving wingers or Isaac Boss into the centre when there's a perfectly simple solution available is ludicrous. Regardless, Leinster are going to be short on wingers too at the moment. Conway and Carr are the only available wingers in the senior squad due to surgeries and international players sitting out.

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Top level AIL level players are a long way off being good enough to play for Leinster.

Something that really doesn't seem to click with people. AIL is amateur. These lads have full time jobs, go out on the lash during the season and a large number of them play for the joy of the game. They're used to playing a similar standard. AIL match day sides often have J1 players amongst them. The jump between the standard of player they'd face on a Saturday afternoon in UCD and in Parc y Scarlets is immeasurable. They'll have Welsh internationals in their back line who would pour through an AIL player.