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Swords Club League suspended

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    #32
    Mycroft H
    Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    Lumen wrote: »
    What you've quoted isn't fact, it's one persons account of another persons account.

    Which is as good as your "understanding", I never claimed it to be fact.


    @kenmc

    perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, but from what I'm reading from Beasty's first post and the text in bold but does it not say that the marshall would only let the guard proceed when he produced his ID.


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    #33
    kenmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    I read it as "look, here's my Id, I'm a guard. move"


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    #34
    Dermot Illogical
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭Dermot Illogical


    BX 19 wrote: »
    Which is as good as your "understanding", I never claimed it to be fact.


    @kenmc

    perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, but from what I'm reading from Beasty's first post and the text in bold but does it not say that the marshall would only let the guard proceed when he produced his ID.

    I've read the email and it's clear that the individual in question produced an ID card of his own volition. He wasn't asked for it by the marshall.


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    #35
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,308 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    kenmc wrote: »
    I read it as "look, here's my Id, I'm a guard. move"
    That was how it was intended to be read - sorry for anyone that took it any other way

    However it does not change the legal position - marshalls are not permitted to stop traffic - the one in question had no power to do what he/she did - I presume posters accept this. That's not really an issue that is worth debating further imo. This thread is really about the technical issues/legal position and what is required to run a cycle race in Ireland


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    #36
    dooverylittle
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭dooverylittle


    I have the contact details for one of the garda club guys who regularly takes part in the swords league. Would some one at the club like to contact him?


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    #37
    wav1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,903 ✭✭✭wav1


    Similar problems have arisen in the past,but these problems came from local authorities who have control of our public roads.Basically as i understand it,nobody has the right to halt racing on the highway as we are deemed to be public road users like everybody else once ''the rules of the road are abided by''.At some events you will see pot holes ete freshly filled in as the local authorities would be afraid of leaving themselves open.Also i believe that marshalls have no legal right at any time to direct traffic,but merely direct and warn riders,and would be dependent at all times on the goodwill of the motorist.Having said all that its good to keep on the right side of the local gardastation as they could make things ''awkward'' for any road race promoter


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    #38
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    BX 19 wrote: »
    Which is as good as your "understanding", I never claimed it to be fact.

    It possibly wasn't obvious from my use of the definite article, but I was referring to the general case of a marshall stopping traffic, not what happened in this case.

    We have no idea of the facts of this case, there is even dispute over the interpretation of Beasty's account of the guards account of the alleged facts. :pac:
    Beasty wrote: »
    However it does not change the legal position - marshalls are not permitted to stop traffic - the one in question had no power to do what he/she did - I presume posters accept this

    I absolutely do not accept this. You seem to be taking the allegations stated in the complaint as truth, whereas it's just one person's account.

    The letter makes references to previous *personal* inconveniences the guard has experienced with cycle races. I'm not going to quote it here, but maybe you should re-read the letter with a more open mind.

    For all we know the guard might be going through some kind of personal crisis triggered by post-traumatic stress. Or he might be the most upstanding, balanced person in the world. We actually know nothing at all of the facts, except that various allegations and threats have been made which have resulted in the league being suspended.


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    #39
    kenmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    lumen are you disputing the assertion that marshalls have no right to stop traffic?


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    #40
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    kenmc wrote: »
    lumen are you disputing the assertion that marshalls have no right to stop traffic?

    No, I read it that he was disputing the assumption that the guard's version of events was what really happened.


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    #41
    kenmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    fair enough, just checking. wanted to prove him wrong for once :D


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    #42
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    No, I read it that he was disputing the assumption that the guard's version of events was what really happened.

    Exactly.

    There is a proximity problem with discussing the general case in the same thread as the specific one. The two things get mixed up and it inevitably lends credence to an allegation which might be completely fabricated for all we know.


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    #43
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    If I was a club in Dublin, I would make it my business to invite the Garda CC into my club league.


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    #44
    greenmat
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭greenmat


    ROK ON wrote: »
    If I was a club in Dublin, I would make it my business to invite the Garda CC into my club league.

    We have a few GDA CC riders in the league, don't think they'll be too impressed with the suspension of the league. The one positive aspect of this, is that we are suspending the league ourself's and not because of an investigation into a serious accident/injury or worse.


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    #45
    English Bob
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭English Bob


    I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league. Ok the complaint came from an individual who happens to work as a Garda but he was off duty. I reckon the attention this is receiving is only going to make matters worse. This should be dealt with in comittee and until any decision has been made the races should continue as normal.
    Any more attention is just not beneficial to road racing for all of Irish cycling clubs.


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    #46
    greenmat
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭greenmat


    English Bob wrote: »
    I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league. Ok the complaint came from an individual who happens to work as a Garda but he was off duty. I reckon the attention this is receiving is only going to make matters worse. This should be dealt with in comittee and until any decision has been made the races should continue as normal.
    Any more attention is just not beneficial to road racing for all of Irish cycling clubs.

    Maybe we should contact Garda concerned and get him to investigate this more serious matter.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056687126


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    #47
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    English Bob wrote: »
    I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league QUOTE]
    The league should continue the next race is not in the same area and at the end of the day no charges have been brought nor are their likely to be,other than causing an inconvenience to this this individual the league is run to a hi standard and to suspend it in this manner is a total over reaction


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    #48
    Lusk Doyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭Lusk Doyle


    killalanerr wrote: »
    English Bob wrote: »
    I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league QUOTE]
    The league should continue the next race is not in the same area and at the end of the day no charges have been brought nor are their likely to be,other than causing an inconvenience to this this individual the league is run to a hi standard and to suspend it in this manner is a total over reaction

    Indeed. Isn't the potential suspension of the league really a justification for an EGM in which the committee and members openly discuss the issue?


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    #49
    alexanderomahon
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭alexanderomahon


    Is there any potential impact on Sunday's sportive?


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    #50
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,215 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    alexanderomahon wrote: »
    Is there any potential impact on Sunday's sportive?

    No


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    #51
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    The commmittee are an experienced and intelligent group. They are acting in the best interests of the club and cycling and I for one support them 100%.


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    #52
    Vizzy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    Lads there are legal procedures/regulations to be followed to close roads
    If you bear with me I will try to outline the legal provisions that are used(BTW I am not a solicitor but I have some involvement in the field).I will use the National Championships last weekend as my example cos all the vagaries of the law are/were used.

    To formally close the road,Notice is required in a local paper to state that you intend to close the road(s).You need to give time for objections etc ,then publish another notice to say that you have decided to close the road.
    This whole process is done by the local authority and takes about a month to complete.This was what was done to close the roads for the TT and the closing of centre of the town of Clonmel for the Nat Champs.

    The "rolling closure" that was used for the rest of the Nat Champs(i.e outside the centre of Clonmel) is tecnically an emergency road closure which is done under the auspices of an Garda Siochana.
    This is the procedure that we are all familiar with for club races etc.
    Now to the matter at hand;
    From reading the thread and Beasty's initial post it would appear that a marshall was out of line and acting as if he had power to close the road-he/she has no such legal power but under most circumstances the Gardai "allow" you to excercise a sort of power to ask motorists to obey your request to stop at a junction etc.
    Bottom line here lads is we are relying on the good will of the Gardai to "allow" us to marshall races.Key to it all is to make sure the Gardai are in the loop at all times
    Maybe the marshall was acting the pr**k or maybe he just met an over zealous Garda but strictly speaking the Garda was correct in that unless the correct procedures were followed,then the racing is illegal.


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    #53
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    @Vizzy, which law says that racing bicycles on open roads is illegal?


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    #54
    Hungrycol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,246 ✭✭✭Hungrycol


    If the Garda is correct in his version of events, as we assume he is, then the Marshall was incorrect to say the road was closed. The road is never closed in a league race. Never was. So road closure protocol does not apply.


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    #55
    Actual Paramedic
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭Actual Paramedic


    RobFowl wrote: »
    The commmittee are an experienced and intelligent group. They are acting in the best interests of the club and cycling and I for one support them 100%.

    We elected the committee and let them act in our interests as they always have. Discussing the finer aspects of the case here may not be right, a general discussion on club leagues on public roads is grand. You never know who is watching this.


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    #56
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,308 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Lumen wrote: »
    I absolutely do not accept this. You seem to be taking the allegations stated in the complaint as truth, whereas it's just one person's account.
    We only have the guard's version of events. I don't know who the marshall in question was (and have no particular desire to know), but I would accept the guard's version of events in the absence of any contrary information/evidence. I would prefer to focus on what the law allows/requires if his version is accurate rather than ponder what may or may not have happened further


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    #57
    Lusk Doyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭Lusk Doyle


    Actual Paramedic wrote: »
    You never know who is watching this.

    Oh no!!! We had better be careful so!!!


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    #58
    Vizzy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    Lumen,
    If rhe correct procedures are not followed under section 74 of the Roads Act 1993,then permission cannot be given to hold a road race and by implication the race is illegal.
    Again tecnically,the Gardai should/could arrive at the race and immediately prohibit it.
    It doesn't happen though unless there are particular problems being caused.


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    #59
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Beasty wrote: »
    We only have the guard's version of events

    Not on this thread we don't. We only have your interpretation of that version.
    Beasty wrote: »
    I would accept the guard's version of events in the absence of any contrary information/evidence

    Of course you would.


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    #60
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    It seems like perhaps some overzealous marshalling has been coupled with some overzealous policing.

    Although marshalling is obviously fairly simple in concept, I had never marshalled prior to this season, I was just given a flag and a Hi-Vis jacket and sent to a corner. I think it would be a good idea to circulate an email with the do's and dont's of marshalling to all members prior to the race season so people know the limits etc. and we can avoid this sort of occurance.


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    #61
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Vizzy wrote: »
    Lumen,
    If rhe correct procedures are not followed under section 74 of the Roads Act 1993,then permission cannot be given to hold a road race and by implication the race is illegal.
    Again tecnically,the Gardai should/could arrive at the race and immediately prohibit it.
    It doesn't happen though unless there are particular problems being caused.

    Thanks. Here is that section:

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/print.html#sec74

    "In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals."


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