Swords Club League suspended

Beasty

A number of you who are members of Swords will already be aware that a note was circulated earlier today advising us that the Club League is suspended until further notice.

The background is the club has received notification from a guard that there are a number of issues the club needs to address before further racing can take place.

I am not proposing to reproduce the note, but the gist of it is that the guard in question (and I have no idea of his rank) has witnessed problems on one particular circuit. Basically his vehicle was stopped by a marshall, and was only allowed to proceed when he showed the marshall his ID. There were further comments concerning the behaviour of marshalls and accompanying motor vehicles and the way they may have been acting strictly outside the law on occasions. Additional points were raised that the guard believed that illegal road closures had taken place; he stated that racing was illegal; that cyclists were “taking over the road”; that no formal road closures were in place; that no Gardai were directing traffic.

Having seen the note, I have little doubt the guard had some valid points. In light of the issues raised the club has taken the decision to immediately suspend races until a workable solution is found.

Clearly this has potentially far-reaching consequences for all club racing in Ireland, and we do not wish to stifle discussion here. However we would equally not wish to inflame the situation, and hence would ask that all posters seek to contribute to this discussion in a constructive manner. I don’t think there is anything to be gained from publishing the full note here at this time. It is in essence a private letter to the club, which the club has seen fit to circulate to its members.

I know there have been issues in Northern Ireland with the PSNI restricting the way in which racing takes place. Maybe similar restrictions are appropriate here. From my perspective, although I see mainly safe racing, I have witnessed inappropriate cycling which can sometimes make things difficult for the organisers and marshalls.

Hopefully the club will be able to reach an agreement with An Garda Siochana and racing can recommence at the earliest opportunity.

RobFowl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4

chakattack

Hopefully this gets sorted. Rider behaviour in the league is generally very good, certainly better than some open races.

Maybe the Garda Cycling Club can help negotiations?

Inquitus

I have a few points / questions on this issue:

1) I presume the position taken by this particular Guard could be applied to all racing currently held in Ireland with the exception of bigger events such as the Rás ,the national Championships etc. ?
2) Is this the Guards personal professional opinion? or is he acting with the backing of the local Garda Superintendent. Clearly it would be remiss of him to act unilaterally, rather he should get a senior figure from the local Gardai to approach the club in formal discussion with an aim to resolve the issue in a satisfactory way for both parties if possible.
3) He certainly did raise some valid issues, but his tone is poor and his missive is poorly written and confrontational rather then engaging.

Bunnyhopper

There's an interesting post on this general topic here:

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.ie/2010/04/road-racing-in-england.html

He's referring to the UK, but I think this general point is valid:

It is an important democratic prinicple that the police are there to enforce the law not to enact it. Giving the police a blanket discretion effectively to prevent a road race is clearly a matter in need of urgent review.

The best thing would seem to be for clear and consistent regulations be agreed between, for example, Cycling Ireland and the Gardaí. The Garda in this case may have valid points, but having to shut down an entire club league on the basis of what sounds like a somewhat intemperate letter from an individual member of the force is not a desirable situation for cycling to be in.

Another telling point from that post is this:

For many years, whilst road racing thrived on the continent, it was illegal here. While the classics developed in France, Belgium and Holland racing in the UK was a clandestine underground affair frowned upon even by cycling organisations (who no doubt feared a backlash if the motoring public were even slightly inconvenienced.)

Something like this has the potential to do enormous damage to the sport of cycling (and by extension to cycling in general) in this country. If it can't be resolved at a local level then it will be in all our interests to push for a wider resolution.

Lusk Doyle

Would a celebration of victory in the league be presumptuous on my part at this time!?!

Edit: Seriously though, it's a shame, unfortunate but very important and serious all the same.

Beasty

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Would a celebration of victory in the league be presumptuous on my part at this time!?!

TT's may be OK, in which case I'm going to spend the next 2 months exclusively practising on Ardgillan in the hope of thwarting your dastardly plan.

Come to think of it, there was something of "your style" in the note circulated by the club...

doozerie

Beasty wrote:

Additional points were raised that the guard believed that illegal road closures had taken place;

I'd be very interested to know what the garda in question, or the gardai generally in fact, consider a "road closure". In the league I participate in we stop traffic only for as long at is takes the riders to clear a junction (or severe bend where necessary), and I would assume it's the very same for other leagues too. This means stopping traffic for probably no more than 1 or 2 minutes for each bunch, and typically the bunches are spaced a few minutes apart. That to me would not constitute a road closure as such, but if the gardai take a different view then it's hard to see how any race could be safely run (i.e. with marshals at danger points) on open roads without falling foul of the formal and tricky requirements that this garda seems to be saying are necessary. That wouldn't bode well, I think.

Lumen

Beasty wrote: »

I am not proposing to reproduce the note...Having seen the note, I have little doubt the guard had some valid points....we do not wish to stifle discussion here. However we would equally not wish to inflame the situation, and hence would ask that all posters seek to contribute to this discussion in a constructive manner. I don’t think there is anything to be gained from publishing the full note here at this time. It is in essence a private letter to the club, which the club has seen fit to circulate to its members.

With respect, this is a total balls of a thread starter. You cannot adopt a public position based on your reading of a private note and then ban discussion of the note itself.

I've read the note. I would take issue with several aspects of it, but there's no point attempting to have that discussion without posting the detail, and I agree that would be a bad idea.

May as well just make the announcement and close the thread.

Lusk Doyle

doozerie wrote: »

Beasty wrote:

Additional points were raised that the guard believed that illegal road closures had taken place;

I'd be very interested to know what the garda in question, or the gardai generally in fact, consider a "road closure". In the league I participate in we stop traffic only for as long at is takes the riders to clear a junction (or severe bend where necessary), and I would assume it's the very same for other leagues too. This means stopping traffic for probably no more than 1 or 2 minutes for each bunch, and typically the bunches are spaced a few minutes apart. That to me would not constitute a road closure as such, but if the gardai take a different view then it's hard to see how any race could be safely run (i.e. with marshals at danger points) on open roads without falling foul of the formal and tricky requirements that this garda seems to be saying are necessary. That wouldn't bode well, I think.

My thoughts exactly. I'm sure that consultation will answer that and any other queries very soon.

Beasty

Lumen wrote: »

With respect, this is a total balls of a thread starter. You cannot adopt a public position based on your reading of a private note and then ban discussion of the note itself.

I've read the note. I would take issue with several aspects of it, but there's no point attempting to have that discussion without posting the detail, and I agree that would be a bad idea.

May as well just make the announcement and close the thread.

Completely valid points Lumen, but given the potential wider implications I thought it appropriate to allow some discussion. Let's at least see how it goes for a while, as there are some aspects of it I think we could validly discuss (which are probably the areas I tried to identify in the OP)

Idleater

doozerie wrote: »

In the league I participate in we stop traffic only for as long at is takes the riders to clear a junction (or severe bend where necessary), and I would assume it's the very same for other leagues too.

In our league I was under the impression that the clubs had notified the local garda stations, and that marshalls can indicate to road users a possible danger but under no circumstances is it law. Any road user may ignore (and several do) a marshall on a corner and proceed under the law.

In an unfortunate incident where a motorist ignored the warning given by a marshall and a cyclist was involved in an incident either by hitting or not being able to stop in a safe manner in which to avoid an accident then the matter would be dealt with in the same way as any other road accident. The rules that we all subscribe to in the club league and open racing is to obey the rules of the road.

My understanding of the role of marshalls is to reduce the potential for incident should a rider lose control on a bend, not to allow them to take a nice wide line exiting the corner.

Beasty

On the "road closure" point I am assuming the guard took the view that stopping traffic is effectively closing the road, albeit for a short time. However as we have discussed here previoulsy marshalls have absolutely no power to stop traffic, and are there, at least in theory, to direct the racers and perhaps act as a warning to other traffic

I guess my position is when marshalling I will hold up the flag in the hope traffic will stop (and so far it has not failed), but if someone is going to be insistent I guess I would at least attempt to warn them of the potential risks involved in proceeding

Beasty

One question I have is that if, as the guard indicates, "racing is illegal", what under Irish law makes it legal? I presume there is no licensing process, and is the implication that it's only "legal" on closed roads?

Lumen

Beasty wrote: »

One question I have is that if, as the guard indicates, "racing is illegal", what under Irish law makes it legal? I presume there is no licensing process, and is the implication that it's only "legal" on closed roads?

Eh, stuff is legal by default!

Lusk Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

One question I have is that if, as the guard indicates, "racing is illegal", what under Irish law makes it legal? I presume there is no licensing process, and is the implication that it's only "legal" on closed roads?

I would ask rather what under Irish law makes it illegal?

killalanerr

wow so are the view of one garda is to take preference over the right of the many riders that take enjoyment from taking part in this event,no that cant be right,if laws have being broken then lets deal with it in the courts but not allow our right as individuals to take to the roads be taken away in this manner
Will we still behaving a group ride on wednesday evenings i will go

C3PO

Excuse my ignorance but I assumed that any club that held races on public roads would have obtained a permit/permission to do so? Is this not the case?

goldencleric

Beasty

Please note that posts simply attacking the guard in question can expect to result in a swift closure of this thread or other sanctions.

Having said that, given my connection with the club, I have asked the other mods to keep an eye on this thread and take any mod actions required (I'll still ban anyone trying to spam in it though;))

doozerie

Idleater wrote: »

In our league I was under the impression that the clubs had notified the local garda stations, and that marshalls can indicate to road users a possible danger but under no circumstances is it law. Any road user may ignore (and several do) a marshall on a corner and proceed under the law.

In an unfortunate incident where a motorist ignored the warning given by a marshall and a cyclist was involved in an incident either by hitting or not being able to stop in a safe manner in which to avoid an accident then the matter would be dealt with in the same way as any other road accident. The rules that we all subscribe to in the club league and open racing is to obey the rules of the road.

My understanding of the role of marshalls is to reduce the potential for incident should a rider lose control on a bend, not to allow them to take a nice wide line exiting the corner.

It's my understanding too that the marshal is requesting traffic to stop but that drivers are within their legal rights to opt not to stop. It's a very "flexible" type of arrangement that relies on common sense on the part of both marshals and drivers (and riders of course) and seems to work out fine for the most part. It looks like the garda here is trying to make it far more formal/rigid which seems like it might impact badly on everyone concerned - introducing extra hurdles and probably costs for clubs, cause more delays for motorists if sections of road are well and truly closed off for chunks of time, etc.

The positioning of marshals to minimise the risk of accidents if riders swing wide on a corner is another aspect of the casual nature of the arrangement - riders shouldn't end up on that side of the road but the reality is that with the best will in the world on the part of all riders it can happen i.e. it can be the result of a brief moment of poor judgement or poor bike control rather than being a conscious decision by a reckless rider. If the gardai were to take a hard line approach then they could dictate that a race where this happened would be stopped on safety grounds, for example. Right now having marshals stopping or just warning drivers approaching such junctions/bends seems like a reasonable approach to minimise risk but one which the gardai may take issue with. Basically, once things start to get formalised it can make managing something as fluid as a race extremely difficult.

Lumen

doozerie wrote: »

It's my understanding too that the marshal is requesting traffic to stop

It is my understanding that the marshal is *advising* traffic to stop based on there being a hazard ahead, in the same way that you might put a warning triangle some distance behind a broken down car to keep other road users safe.

The whole purpose is to keep everyone safe, not to demand special treatment for a bunch of crazed lunatics (which is probably what a bike race looks like to someone who isn't familiar with bike racing). This is why it's important for marshalls to act with particular civility when dealing with anyone, even when those people are total gob****es.

ROK ON

C3PO wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but I assumed that any club that held races on public roads would have obtained a permit/permission to do so? Is this not the case?

I was involved in organising a race last year, and this was also my understanding.
Let me rephrase. I do not think that a permit is reqd, but it was my impression that contact should be made with the relevant local Gardai to advise them that a race will take place and do they have any objection etc etc.

greenmat

So dissapointed to hear this. I agree with Beasty about the implications for all racing in Ireland so we need to get a clear picture of whats expected and required by us from the Gardai and Cycling Ireland.

It's funny the different reactions you will get from different members of the Gardai. At the last Garristown Race the local Gardai gave traffic cones to one of the marshalls to close off one side of the Main St to parking to make it safer to race.

Hungrycol

Just read the note. Thanks for bringing it to our attention on here. Have lots to say on the matter but not on here. Wife already got an earful of WTF's, FFS's, etc on this!

Hungrycol

greenmat wrote: »

It's funny the different reactions you will get from different members of the Gardai. At the last Garristown Race the local Gardai gave traffic cones to one of the marshalls to close off one side of the Main St to parking to make it safer to race.

Even had a garda lead out jeep one evening on the same course. Think he was a cyclist as he seemed very chatty to a few of the riders.

Mycroft H

Lumen wrote: »

It is my understanding that the marshal is *advising* traffic to stop based on there being a hazard ahead, in the same way that you might put a warning triangle some distance behind a broken down car to keep other road users safe.

I am not proposing to reproduce the note, but the gist of it is that the guard in question (and I have no idea of his rank) has witnessed problems on one particular circuit. Basically his vehicle was stopped by a marshall, and was only allowed to proceed when he showed the marshall his ID.

Ahhh here, there is advising and there is taking it a bit too far. The above is taking the piss. Anyone other then a member of AGS or Customs stopping me and asking me for ID and refusing to let me move until I produce the ID is going to be told swiftly where to go.

There is only a handful of people that can control traffic, the Gardai in all circumstances, and a handful of others in specific circumstances and the marshall is not one of them. He can't stop traffic, nor close roads under their own judgement.

While I accept that they should act as a advisory role as a warning to groups of cyclists on the road, they cannot overstep that mark.

GlennaMaddy

ROK ON wrote: »

C3PO wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but I assumed that any club that held races on public roads would have obtained a permit/permission to do so? Is this not the case?

I was involved in organising a race last year, and this was also my understanding.
Let me rephrase. I do not think that a permit is reqd, but it was my impression that contact should be made with the relevant local Gardai to advise them that a race will take place and do they have any objection etc etc.

Maybe this is the relavent legislation?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0074.html#sec74

kenmc

BX 19 wrote: »

Ahhh here, there is advising and there is taking it a bit too far. The above is taking the piss. Anyone other then a member of AGS or Customs stopping me and asking me for ID and refusing to let me move until I produce the ID is going to be told swiftly where to go.

There is only a handful of people that can control traffic, the Gardai in all circumstances, and a handful of others in specific circumstances and the marshall is not one of them. He can't stop traffic, nor close roads under their own judgement.

While I accept that they should act as a advisory role as a warning to groups of cyclists on the road, they cannot overstep that mark.

where did it say that the guard was asked for id? he may have produced it himself. alternatively, if he said to the marshall that he was a guard, then the marshall had every right to ask for proof, otherwise everyone would go around claiming to be guards

Lumen

BX 19 wrote: »

Ahhh here, there is advising and there is taking it a bit too far. The above is taking the piss. Anyone other then a member of AGS or Customs stopping me and asking me for ID and refusing to let me move until I produce the ID is going to be told swiftly where to go.

What you've quoted isn't fact, it's one persons account of another persons account.

manwithaplan

GlennaMaddy wrote: »

Maybe this is the relavent legislation?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0074.html#sec74

As a youngfella, I was involved in producing that legislation and I have a feeling that section was never commenced. I will check the commencement orders and come back.

Edit - Checked it and it wasn't commenced straight away but was picked up in a commencement order taking effect from 1 January 1995.

Mycroft H

Lumen wrote: »

What you've quoted isn't fact, it's one persons account of another persons account.

Which is as good as your "understanding", I never claimed it to be fact.


@kenmc

perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, but from what I'm reading from Beasty's first post and the text in bold but does it not say that the marshall would only let the guard proceed when he produced his ID.

kenmc

I read it as "look, here's my Id, I'm a guard. move"

Dermot Illogical

BX 19 wrote: »

Which is as good as your "understanding", I never claimed it to be fact.


@kenmc

perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, but from what I'm reading from Beasty's first post and the text in bold but does it not say that the marshall would only let the guard proceed when he produced his ID.

I've read the email and it's clear that the individual in question produced an ID card of his own volition. He wasn't asked for it by the marshall.

Beasty

kenmc wrote: »

I read it as "look, here's my Id, I'm a guard. move"

That was how it was intended to be read - sorry for anyone that took it any other way

However it does not change the legal position - marshalls are not permitted to stop traffic - the one in question had no power to do what he/she did - I presume posters accept this. That's not really an issue that is worth debating further imo. This thread is really about the technical issues/legal position and what is required to run a cycle race in Ireland

dooverylittle

I have the contact details for one of the garda club guys who regularly takes part in the swords league. Would some one at the club like to contact him?

wav1

Similar problems have arisen in the past,but these problems came from local authorities who have control of our public roads.Basically as i understand it,nobody has the right to halt racing on the highway as we are deemed to be public road users like everybody else once ''the rules of the road are abided by''.At some events you will see pot holes ete freshly filled in as the local authorities would be afraid of leaving themselves open.Also i believe that marshalls have no legal right at any time to direct traffic,but merely direct and warn riders,and would be dependent at all times on the goodwill of the motorist.Having said all that its good to keep on the right side of the local gardastation as they could make things ''awkward'' for any road race promoter

Lumen

BX 19 wrote: »

Which is as good as your "understanding", I never claimed it to be fact.

It possibly wasn't obvious from my use of the definite article, but I was referring to the general case of a marshall stopping traffic, not what happened in this case.

We have no idea of the facts of this case, there is even dispute over the interpretation of Beasty's account of the guards account of the alleged facts. :pac:

Beasty wrote: »

However it does not change the legal position - marshalls are not permitted to stop traffic - the one in question had no power to do what he/she did - I presume posters accept this

I absolutely do not accept this. You seem to be taking the allegations stated in the complaint as truth, whereas it's just one person's account.

The letter makes references to previous *personal* inconveniences the guard has experienced with cycle races. I'm not going to quote it here, but maybe you should re-read the letter with a more open mind.

For all we know the guard might be going through some kind of personal crisis triggered by post-traumatic stress. Or he might be the most upstanding, balanced person in the world. We actually know nothing at all of the facts, except that various allegations and threats have been made which have resulted in the league being suspended.

kenmc

lumen are you disputing the assertion that marshalls have no right to stop traffic?

Chips Lovell

kenmc wrote: »

lumen are you disputing the assertion that marshalls have no right to stop traffic?

No, I read it that he was disputing the assumption that the guard's version of events was what really happened.

kenmc

fair enough, just checking. wanted to prove him wrong for once

Lumen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

No, I read it that he was disputing the assumption that the guard's version of events was what really happened.

Exactly.

There is a proximity problem with discussing the general case in the same thread as the specific one. The two things get mixed up and it inevitably lends credence to an allegation which might be completely fabricated for all we know.

ROK ON

If I was a club in Dublin, I would make it my business to invite the Garda CC into my club league.

greenmat

ROK ON wrote: »

If I was a club in Dublin, I would make it my business to invite the Garda CC into my club league.

We have a few GDA CC riders in the league, don't think they'll be too impressed with the suspension of the league. The one positive aspect of this, is that we are suspending the league ourself's and not because of an investigation into a serious accident/injury or worse.

English Bob

I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league. Ok the complaint came from an individual who happens to work as a Garda but he was off duty. I reckon the attention this is receiving is only going to make matters worse. This should be dealt with in comittee and until any decision has been made the races should continue as normal.
Any more attention is just not beneficial to road racing for all of Irish cycling clubs.

greenmat

English Bob wrote: »

I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league. Ok the complaint came from an individual who happens to work as a Garda but he was off duty. I reckon the attention this is receiving is only going to make matters worse. This should be dealt with in comittee and until any decision has been made the races should continue as normal.
Any more attention is just not beneficial to road racing for all of Irish cycling clubs.

Maybe we should contact Garda concerned and get him to investigate this more serious matter.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056687126

killalanerr

English Bob wrote: »

I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league QUOTE]
The league should continue the next race is not in the same area and at the end of the day no charges have been brought nor are their likely to be,other than causing an inconvenience to this this individual the league is run to a hi standard and to suspend it in this manner is a total over reaction

Lusk Doyle

killalanerr wrote: »

English Bob wrote: »

I don't understand why this complaint is having such a dramatic effect to club league QUOTE]
The league should continue the next race is not in the same area and at the end of the day no charges have been brought nor are their likely to be,other than causing an inconvenience to this this individual the league is run to a hi standard and to suspend it in this manner is a total over reaction

Indeed. Isn't the potential suspension of the league really a justification for an EGM in which the committee and members openly discuss the issue?

alexanderomahon

Is there any potential impact on Sunday's sportive?

07Lapierre

alexanderomahon wrote: »

Is there any potential impact on Sunday's sportive?

No

RobFowl

The commmittee are an experienced and intelligent group. They are acting in the best interests of the club and cycling and I for one support them 100%.