Why are people so ashamed of drinking in Ireland? MOD WARNING POST 1

actuallylike

Mod note: Please read & understand the forum charter before you post in this thread. This forum is for discussion of our love of drink & is haven for drinkers. This forum is not for the discussion of the evils of drink or any related social ills. That is more suited to the Humanities forum or the like.

Simply put - Please take care not to disrespect posters who are of a pro-alcohol stance in this thread.

tHB

How do, considered posting this in AH but thought I might get a more clued in response here.

Why is it that Irish people attach so much shame to their alcohol consumption? I work in an off licence and I see it every day. Pretty much every second customer, I ask if they want a bag or not and their answer is always something along the lines of “Yes please, don’t want the neighbours seeing me” or “Yeah, don’t want anyone think I’m a dipso”. It really disheartens me as a lot of these people are only getting a bottle of wine or something, something they not only are perfectly entitled to have, but perfectly entitled to enjoy without judgement.

Another incident that raised my awareness of the Irish shame of alcohol happened a few weeks ago. A woman who lived local and who was just out of the hospital and housebound, rang the off licence and asked could I deliver a bottle of Bacardi and wine. I was just finishing my shift and so said no problem. Good old me though, got the address wrong (Manor, not Drive:o). I approached a house in my uniform and a bag with the drink in it. A girl, around 16, was standing in the front doorway with her friend when they saw me. She gave me a bit of a look and I said that I was from the local off licence and I had a delivery. She immediately called her dad in a kinda ‘get out here now’ kinda way. He came down, saw the drink in my hand and approached me pretty quick asking me what I wanted. I explained what was going on and he ushered me out of his driveway saying ‘No, no, no, you’ve got the wrong house’. I had my uniform on and everything. If I was a courier with a wrong address would he have acted so hostile?

I was over in Berlin a few months ago and their attitude amazed me. People wandering the streets with a beer in their hand without a care in the world. Saw one guy walk into the bar we were in with beer in hand, chat to the barmen, take his jacket off and start his shift! There’s no judgement there at all, nothing to judge. Then at home, sometimes I’ll be walking into town on a night out (around 40 minutes in total) and would fancy a beer, not to get drunk but because I like beer. I have to stick to the backroads because it’s illegal to drink in public (something that I’m against) but on these walks I occasionally encounter other walkers. I find myself having to hide my beer due to many occasions of them tut tutting or passing a remark. I know I shouldn’t care what they think but what is it with this attitude? This attitude of ‘How dare you. Keep your drinking behind closed doors like the rest of us’. Is it some deep rooted ‘Be ashamed of what you enjoy’ mantra in Irish culture? The same we had with sex for so many years? Is there an end to it in sight?

People need to realise that the sole reason for drinking alcohol is not to get drunk. Until this is realised, everyone with a can in their hands while outside and not having paid ~€200 for a festival ticket, will be judged negatively. Shame, cause I love a nice beer.

puffishoes

Can't say I ever came across people being ashamed much the opposite in fact.

Boasting about how much we drink and how much we spent how many days one was on a bender seems fairly common place.

BeerNut

actuallylike wrote: »

Why is it that Irish people attach so much shame to their alcohol consumption?

It's because some of us are really bad at it, and the system has been designed to try and keep it away from us has much as possible: that's why you need a licence to sell it, that's why you have to stop selling it at 10pm.

actuallylike wrote: »

A woman who lived local and who was just out of the hospital and housebound, rang the off licence and asked could I deliver a bottle of Bacardi and wine.

Maybe unrelated, but if you hadn't been paid in advance you were breaking the law.

actuallylike wrote: »

People need to realise that the sole reason for drinking alcohol is not to get drunk. Until this is realised, everyone with a can in their hands while outside and not having paid ~€200 for a festival ticket, will be judged negatively. Shame, cause I love a nice beer.

Could not agree more.

actuallylike

puffishoes wrote: »

Can't say I ever came across people being ashamed much the opposite in fact.

Boasting about how much we drink and how much we spent how many days one was on a bender seems fairly common place.

That's true but is it because we limit our drinking to where others can't see us, the reason some people drink to excess instead of just casually enjoying it without looking over their shoulder? I'm think this would be a subconscious thought process rather than 'I'm going to get locked because nobody can see me'.

actuallylike

BeerNut wrote: »

It's because some of us are really bad at it, and the system has been designed to try and keep it away from us has much as possible: that's why you need a licence to sell it, that's why you have to stop selling it at 10pm.

I don't know if I agree that a country can be bad at drinking without some social effects been an influence. If they didn't try to hide/stop it so much would we have as big a problem as now? I doubt it

BeerNut wrote: »

Maybe unrelated, but if you hadn't been paid in advance you were breaking the law.

Really . How so?

al28283

Whereabouts do you work? I worked in an off licence for years and never heard anything like that

actuallylike

al28283 wrote: »

Whereabouts do you work? I worked in an off licence for years and never heard anything like that

About what the customers say about their neighbours? I work in an off licence in South Dublin but I worked in another off licence nearby a few years ago and got the same responses from customers.

BeerNut

actuallylike wrote: »

I don't know if I agree that a country can be bad at drinking without some social effects been an influence. If they didn't try to hide/stop it so much would we have as big a problem as now? I doubt it

It's a chicken-and-egg situation. I think the strict rules came first, but they weren't introduced on health or social grounds, it was for taxation.

actuallylike wrote: »

Really . How so?

Your licence has an address on it. It is only at that address that you can sell alcohol. You can't sell cans at a stall on a street corner and what you were doing, essentially, was selling the drink on the customer's doorstep. If she'd phoned through credit card details first that would mean that the buying transaction was happening at the licensed address, so would be OK.

actuallylike

BeerNut wrote: »

Your licence has an address on it. It is only at that address that you can sell alcohol. You can't sell cans at a stall on a street corner and what you were doing, essentially, was selling the drink on the customer's doorstep. If she'd phoned through credit card details first that would mean that the buying transaction was happening at the licensed address, so would be OK.

Oh right, well...eh...she totally rang with her card details

it was just a favour for a regular customer

You could have paid for the drink yourself in your offie and she just paid you back like

celticcrash

1pm in Holland (years back) friends and I were having a drink and along came our swedish neighbour. Hello, whats the occasion? No occasion. Whos birthday is it? no ones birthday? Is it a special day back in Ireland? No.
Than why are you drinking at 1 o clock in the day? We are just having a drink. Our neighbour thought we were pulling his leg. After explaining to him that over in Ireland we drink for no reason and every reason, he just walked away shaking his head in disbelief. He could not grasp the concept that people would put alcohol into their bodys for no reason.

Overseas we are looked on as stupid drunkards.
We tolerate drunkards in Ireland, but we dont want to be called one. Irish view: Ah sure hes ok he just had a little drink.
Non Irish view: Call an ambulance, that man is a danger to himself.

rubadub

Is this all a windup?

actuallylike wrote: »

I work in an off licence and I see it every day. Pretty much every second customer, I ask if they want a bag or not and their answer is always something along the lines of “Yes please, don’t want the neighbours seeing me” or “Yeah, don’t want anyone think I’m a dipso”.

I have been in a hell of a lot of off licences in my time, queued up behind a lot of people and overheard their orders and never ONCE heard anything like this, let alone 50% of them doing it. The other off licence worker has not heard of it, has anybody else?

If I did hear that I would have thought they were joking.

actuallylike wrote: »

She immediately called her dad in a kinda ‘get out here now’ kinda way. He came down, saw the drink in my hand and approached me pretty quick asking me what I wanted. I explained what was going on and he ushered me out of his driveway saying ‘No, no, no, you’ve got the wrong house’. I had my uniform on and everything. If I was a courier with a wrong address would he have acted so hostile?

Perhaps he would have acted the same, maybe he was in a bad mood that day or something since she seemed wary of going near him too. Are you suggesting both the daughter & father were both 'against alcohol', or she was somehow predicting his response to somebody from an offlicence delivering drink -which is an extremely rare/unusual occurrence, so it seems very strange how she could predict his reaction. I have just never witnessed nor heard anything like this before, so I would never have jumped to the conclusion it was about the alcohol.

I wonder if delivery men for supermarkets come across this bizarre behaviour when delivery alcohol.

actuallylike wrote: »

I find myself having to hide my beer due to many occasions of them tut tutting or passing a remark. I know I shouldn’t care what they think but what is it with this attitude?

you are committing an illegal act, I have seen people tut if people do not clean up their dogs crap, or if people light up a cigarette in a banned area. In Germany drinking in public is legal, so they can do it "without a care in the world", smoking in pubs is legal too so I expect nobody passes remark if you light up in one.

actuallylike wrote: »

I was over in Berlin a few months ago and their attitude amazed me. People wandering the streets with a beer in their hand without a care in the world.

I was in Munich & Hamburg and their attitude amazed me. People DID NOT wander across with streets without a care in the world. Almost all of them obeyed pedestrian crossing traffic lights. I found it eerie at first, standing there with them on empty roads waiting for the green man. I did stay with them as we got dirty looks when we did break this law. Attitudes like this will just change in different countries.

While in Ireland 'jaywalking' is totally tolerated, it is freely done in front of gardai. And we DO have 'jaywalking' laws in Ireland, the law is so openly broken that many presume we have no such laws.

celticcrash wrote: »

our swedish neighbour....

After explaining to him that over in Ireland we drink for no reason and every reason, he just walked away shaking his head in disbelief. He could not grasp the concept that people would put alcohol into their bodys for no reason.

Strange, I suppose you could meet an Irish man with the same opinion. On wikipedia it suggests drinking during the week is normal there. I know homedistilling is popular in sweden too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverages_in_Sweden

Alcoholic beverages in Sweden are as common as in most of the western world. Sweden is historically part of the vodka belt, with high consumption of distilled beverages and binge drinking, but during the later half of the 20th century, habits are more harmonized with western Europe, with increasing popularity of wine and weekday drinking.

Though it does say

The temperance movement is strong in Sweden,[citation needed] especially in agricultural areas, and often connected with the "free churches" (non-conformists, that is Protestants outside the Church of Sweden). The Straight Edge movement spread among Swedish youth in the 1990s

But you would expect teetotallers to be aware many drink 'without special occasion'. And being in Holland I would have thought he had seen the Dutch doing the same.

actuallylike

rubadub wrote: »

Is this all a windup?
I have been in a hell of a lot of off licences in my time, queued up behind a lot of people and overheard their orders and never ONCE heard anything like this, let alone 50% of them doing it. The other off licence worker has not heard of it, has anybody else?

If I did hear that I would have thought they were joking.

Yes, that's right. I'm lying. I work in an off licence up to 40 hours a week, have done for years. You frequent an off licence I imagine much less. Therefore you see all the going ons that I miss. The people that say this usually say it with a little smirk but they are half serious. Also if they knew another customer was behind them they probably would just stay quiet.

rubadub wrote: »

Perhaps he would have acted the same, maybe he was in a bad mood that day or something since she seemed wary of going near him too. Are you suggesting both the daughter & father were both 'against alcohol', or she was somehow predicting his response to somebody from an offlicence delivering drink -which is an extremely rare/unusual occurrence, so it seems very strange how she could predict his reaction. I have just never witnessed nor heard anything like this before, so I would never have jumped to the conclusion it was about the alcohol.

I wonder if delivery men for supermarkets come across this bizarre behaviour when delivery alcohol.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here, sorry. Who 'he' is and 'she' is has confused me

rubadub wrote: »

you are committing an illegal act, I have seen people tut if people do not clean up their dogs crap, or if people light up a cigarette in a banned area. In Germany drinking in public is legal, so they can do it "without a care in the world", smoking in pubs is legal too so I expect nobody passes remark if you light up in one.

People tut tutting people leaving dog sh*t on the ground aren't going,'look at him, breaking the law'. They're going 'Look at him, leaving sh*t all over the place'. There's a big difference. You mention the fact that jaywalking is tolerated in Ireland even though it's against the law but enjoying a beer in public is frowned upon? Why is it frowned upon, without using the legality of it? If jaywalking is allowed, why not having a beer?

FairytaleGirl

I worked in an off licence for a few years and heard that regularly too - so I can back up the OP on that - Although I noticed it was more of the regular drinkers or 'functioning alcoholics' that had that concern.

Maybe the people who care too much genuinely have something to hide.

rubadub

actuallylike wrote: »

Yes, that's right. I'm lying. I work in an off licence up to 40 hours a week, have done for years.

This guy below has worked for years too.

al28283 wrote: »

Whereabouts do you work? I worked in an off licence for years and never heard anything like that

Going on what I have witnessed in my life, I would be more inclined to believe that off-licence worker over you. He said he NEVER heard anything like it, while you say pretty much every second person does it. Do you think he is lying?

Working it out, I must have witnessed several thousand transactions in offlicences in my life and never heard of this.

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I worked in an off licence for a few years and heard that regularly too - so I can back up the OP on that

How regular? every second person?

actuallylike wrote: »

honestly have no idea what you're talking about here, sorry. Who 'he' is and 'she' is has confused me

he=the father, she=the daughter

Does it make sense now?

actuallylike wrote: »

People tut tutting people leaving dog sh*t on the ground aren't going,'look at him, breaking the law'.

Many are, I have heard people let out a roar to clean it up, and mention its the law if challenged back or told to F off, it is good to have the law there to back up your valid complaint, I have heard scumbags use and excuse of "so what, its not illegal" while doing some unsociable act in the past. I did see some 'tutting' and bad looks in the past before cleaning up after dogs was made law, but after it was made law I notice it FAR more, before the law I saw people more shocked to see people cleaning it up, since it seemed a disgusting act in itself.

Most would be more annoyed that the noncleaner is doing 2 bad things, i.e. breaking the law and dirtying the place, he is breaking a law which they think is a perfectly sound law, a law with little reason to go unenforced or be ignored.

actuallylike wrote: »

You mention the fact that jaywalking is tolerated in Ireland even though it's against the law but enjoying a beer in public is frowned upon? Why is it frowned upon, without using the legality of it?

Where did I say enjoying a beer in public is frowned upon? I was suggesting people were possibly tutting at you for breaking a law.

If we always had the same public drinking laws as Germany I would expect you would experience less people tutting or passing remarks at you.

I am not sure if they have as much teenage "knacker drinking" going on in Germany as here. That is why it could be more frowned upon here, anybody drinking on the street is viewed as possibly anti-social, so many will hide it or not do it for fear of being labelled as such. Like how normal upstanding citizens in the UK might not buy a hoodie for fear of being associated with a 'bad element', while 20 years ago it never would cross their mind.

In my youth I did a fair bit of public drinking, we used have a few cans around the city centre before hitting pubs/clubs. We always found it amusing that if we went 'knacker drinking' outside a busy bar with customers outside standing with pints we would never get hassle from gardai, or bad looks. It seems a class thing, also an age thing. I have strolled to the pub with mates drinking a can and never have problems from gardai these days, since I am older.

If jaywalking is allowed, why not having a beer?

Jaywalking is a law which many do not view as 'perfectly sound' and not a law that should be enforced in 99.9% of cases (like the dog cleaning law). Therefore many people do not mind it not being enforced, and would be more upset to see it being enforced 100% of the time.

My point was that in Germany people would frown upon you breaking the law on and empty street, so to me they appear to be more concerned about you breaking that law, rather than the physical act you are doing. Just like some might frown upon you here solely for breaking this particular law.

Having a beer in public is tolerated by many gardai too, and rightly so. I would think it ridiculous to arrest a woman with her family out having a picnic on the beach and enjoying a glass of wine. Or arresting a man in his 50's strolling to the pub having his first can.

celticcrash

Jesus rubadub take it easy, dont take the whole thing personal.
Your jumping on everyones back. Do you think were all lying?
Ok were all lying.

I am lying everybody. I just made it up to upset rubadub.
Were all lying or else rubadub is suffering from paranoia.

actuallylike

rubadub wrote: »

This guy below has worked for years too.

Going on what I have witnessed in my life, I would be more inclined to believe that off-licence worker over you. He said he NEVER heard anything like it, while you say pretty much every second person does it. Do you think he is lying?

Working it out, I must have witnessed several thousand transactions in offlicences in my life and never heard of this.

Jesus, what the hell is wrong with you? You do realise that al28283 and me aren't the same person right? You do realise we don't work in the same off licence, correct? Just because something happens me does not mean it has to happen to him and just because something doesn't happen him, does not mean that it couldn't happen me. I think you know this though and you just seem to be trying to twist what was said to try and discredit me and make me out to be a liar.

rubadub wrote: »

he=the father, she=the daughter

Does it make sense now?

No, not at all. I think you must have misread my post. I don't know where I said anything about her 'predicting' his response.

Again, I think you're missing the point (or proving mine). For example, I got home from work yesterday and brought some beers home with me. It was a lovely afternoon and I eagerly tucked into Sierra Nevada's new Summerfest beer. A beautiful, crisp Pilsner created to be enjoyed in such nice weather. It was gorgeous and very refreshing. If I am walking down the street in weather like that I would pop into a shop and get a bottle of water or maybe a Coke to cool me down. In reality, what I'd love is to have a beer like I had yesterday, to be able to walk down the street enjoying a brilliantly crafted lager/ale. Why can't I do this? You say people will tut tut me because I'm breaking the law? are we that much a a law abiding country that we'd do this? Is it not something to do with me drinking alcohol that people have a problem with and not purely because I'm 'breaking the law'.

You mention the traffic laws in Germany. I must say I nearly fell victim to an arrest because of that. It is different to see such obedience towards traffic laws. you mention in relation to this that

rubadub wrote: »

Attitudes like this will just change in different countries.

well, why is it in Ireland our attitude to outdoor drinking is so negative?

tommy2bad

well, why is it in Ireland our attitude to outdoor drinking is so negative?

Because the people that do it havn't exactly been the type you'd want to emulate. Drinking wine sitting in a park wont get the same negative response as drinking beer sitting in the shopping center.
Why? because thats the culture, we see drink as for getting drunk not killing thirst. Wine is another thing altogether, more an accessory than a drink.

actuallylike

tommy2bad wrote: »

we see drink as for getting drunk...

It's a shame about this but you're right to a certain extent. I can tell you from figures in our off licence and the other ones near me that the trends are changing though. The same people that used to come in and get 8 cans of crappy Budweiser are now coming in and spending the same amount of money on 3 or 4 high quality beers. The change is coming, people are tasting it, not skulling it. Hopefully society sees this and adapts accordingly.

actuallylike

actuallylike wrote: »

It's a shame about this but you're right to a certain extent. I can tell you from figures in our off licence and the other ones near me that the trends are changing though. The same people that used to come in and get 8 cans of crappy Budweiser are now coming in and spending the same amount of money on 3 or 4 high quality beers. The change is coming, people are tasting it, not skulling it. Hopefully society sees this and adapts accordingly.

I see this at work as well. Our sales of bud/heineken/miller are dropping rapidly. Back in 2007/2008 we were shifting around 2 or 3 pallets of bud/miller 24 packs a week even when it was quiet. We're only selling a fraction of that now. Mainstream lagers are in decline, specialty beer sales have tripled in the last two years. They are still a fairly small % of sales where I work but they are the only beer category to show any increase. Wine sales have remained fairly constant, spirit sales are up. We never sold as much Jameson 12yo during the boom years as we have in the last year.

rubadub

celticcrash wrote: »

Jesus rubadub take it easy, dont take the whole thing personal.

I'm grand, don't worry, I'd be more worried about yourself. I just dislike the Irish self deprecation I see in many threads.

celticcrash wrote: »

JYour jumping on everyones back. Do you think were all lying?

Ok were all lying.

I am lying everybody.

Everybody's back? I'm in agreement with most people here, the 3rd offlicence worker also said it was mainly regular drinkers & alcos, I doubt this was 50% of customers.

In my first post I asked if its a windup? thats all, I honestly thought it might be as I would have taken it as sarcasm if I worked in an offy and heard it from so many customers.

The OP then went on to use the emotively charged word "lying", which I guess you have used repeatedly too as it does appear sort of confrontational. I had simply turned this term back on the OP after he used it, and asked if he thought the second worker was lying. He gave no direct answer as I expected.

actuallylike wrote: »

You do realise that al28283 and me aren't the same person right? You do realise we don't work in the same off licence, correct? Just because something happens me does not mean it has to happen to him and just because something doesn't happen him, does not mean that it couldn't happen me. I think you know this though and you just seem to be trying to twist what was said to try and discredit me and make me out to be a liar.

You discredited/dismissed my experience with this line

actuallylike wrote: »

I work in an off licence up to 40 hours a week, have done for years. You frequent an off licence I imagine much less. Therefore you see all the going ons that I miss.

I said the other guy was an offlicence worker and had NEVER seen it, let alone every second person. Then you discredit him by saying he's not you. If it happens to you so much I would think it might happen at least the odd time in other offies in the same country.

actuallylike wrote: »

I don't know where I said anything about her 'predicting' his response.

To me this bit inferred it.

She immediately called her dad in a kinda ‘get out here now’ kinda way

Like she knew/predicted there would be trouble.

actuallylike wrote: »

In reality, what I'd love is to have a beer like I had yesterday, to be able to walk down the street enjoying a brilliantly crafted lager/ale. Why can't I do this? You say people will tut tut me because I'm breaking the law?.

I said its one possibility why they would tut. You can't/shouldn't do it since its against the law. I break this law from time to time, as I said now I am older I have never had trouble walking along sober having a can/bottle.

actuallylike wrote: »

why is it in Ireland our attitude to outdoor drinking is so negative?

I already mentioned it, probably due to the "knacker drinking" culture we have. I expect many other countries, like all the UK would have similar attitudes to it as we do.

actuallylike

rubadub wrote: »

the 3rd offlicence worker also said it was mainly regular drinkers & alcos, I doubt this was 50% of customers.

Unbelievable, you're at it again . We're different people, different off licences, different experiences. How is this so hard to understand?

rubadub wrote: »

The OP then went on to use the emotively charged word "lying", which I guess you have used repeatedly too as it does appear sort of confrontational. I had simply turned this term back on the OP after he used it, and asked if he thought the second worker was lying. He gave no direct answer as I expected.

Aw sorry, did I hurt your feelings with my emotively charged word?

rubadub wrote: »

Going on what I have witnessed in my life, I would be more inclined to believe that off-licence worker over you. He said he NEVER heard anything like it, while you say pretty much every second person does it. Do you think he is lying?

That's accusing me of lying, plain and simple, not using the emotively charged scary word "lying" is neither here nor there. And I did address the issue of the other off licence worker. I said that we have different experiences. What happens me doesn't have to happen him and what happens him doesn't have to happen me so no, I have absolutely no reason to believe he's lying just like you have no reason to believe I am.

rubadub wrote: »

You discredited/dismissed my experience with this line

What experience?!? you don't work in an off licence, you just frequent them from time to time. You have no experience to discredit/dismiss

rubadub wrote: »

I said the other guy was an offlicence worker and had NEVER seen it, let alone every second person. Then you discredit him by saying he's not you. If it happens to you so much I would think it might happen at least the odd time in other offies in the same country.

I never discredited him!!!

rubadub wrote: »

Like she knew/predicted there would be trouble.

I meant that it felt like she kinda looked down on me as if I was a beggar coming to the door.

This isn't a controversial topic. I don't know why you've chosen to make it as heated as you have?

grenache

actuallylike wrote: »

How do, considered posting this in AH but thought I might get a more clued in response here.

Why is it that Irish people attach so much shame to their alcohol consumption? I work in an off licence and I see it every day. Pretty much every second customer, I ask if they want a bag or not and their answer is always something along the lines of “Yes please, don’t want the neighbours seeing me” or “Yeah, don’t want anyone think I’m a dipso”. It really disheartens me as a lot of these people are only getting a bottle of wine or something, something they not only are perfectly entitled to have, but perfectly entitled to enjoy without judgement.

I would guess they have self repsect, and look for repsect from others. As a fellow alcohol trade employee, my guess is that customers don't want to be seen conciously carrying a bottle of alcohol around with them, as they and many others (rightfully) associate it with whinos, alcholics and bingers. Whinos, alcholics and bingers are and will never be a good thing. It just shows a bit of class to cover it up.

actuallylike wrote: »

I was over in Berlin a few months ago and their attitude amazed me. People wandering the streets with a beer in their hand without a care in the world. Saw one guy walk into the bar we were in with beer in hand, chat to the barmen, take his jacket off and start his shift! There’s no judgement there at all, nothing to judge. Then at home, sometimes I’ll be walking into town on a night out (around 40 minutes in total) and would fancy a beer, not to get drunk but because I like beer. I have to stick to the backroads because it’s illegal to drink in public (something that I’m against) but on these walks I occasionally encounter other walkers. I find myself having to hide my beer due to many occasions of them tut tutting or passing a remark. I know I shouldn’t care what they think but what is it with this attitude? This attitude of ‘How dare you. Keep your drinking behind closed doors like the rest of us’. Is it some deep rooted ‘Be ashamed of what you enjoy’ mantra in Irish culture? The same we had with sex for so many years? Is there an end to it in sight?

Firstly, the Germans, like most of the other European nations have a mature cultural attitude to drink. They drink to enjoy themselves. Most Irish people i know, drink to excess and purely for the purpose of being drunk. This an abuse of alcohol and it's commonplace here. Maybe it's because we are kept away from it when we are young, that we become obsessed with it when we get near 18 years of age. The Germans, French, Italians,etc are learned to repsect alcohol when young, they are given it with their meals and develop a better resistance and tolerance towards it. Alcohol, particularly beer and wine, is associated with food in many of these countries, and not purely as something that is there to inebriate oneself.

As for the "not being allowed to enjoy ourselves" mantra, i think this is maninly down to the role the Church played in society up until recently. Anything that was at odds with Catholicism was frowned upon i.e. sex, drinking, divorce, etc. It's still there and will take many generations to remove itself from the Irish psyche.

actuallylike wrote: »

People need to realise that the sole reason for drinking alcohol is not to get drunk. Until this is realised, everyone with a can in their hands while outside and not having paid ~€200 for a festival ticket, will be judged negatively. Shame, cause I love a nice beer.

Many Irish people will never had maturity to realise this. It's the same reason we are in the financial mess we are in. We are simply not mature enough as a nation.

tommy2bad

Many Irish people will never had maturity to realise this. It's the same reason we are in the financial mess we are in. We are simply not mature enough as a nation

I call bull manure on this. We are as mature as any other nation, this kind of nonsense is why no one who did anything wrong is never brought to account, "shure we all went mad" is just shifting the blame from the guilty to some kind of its all our fault.
We are ashamed of drinking because we were taught to disrespect drink, it was used to keep us down, drunken Irish, fighting Irish, whatever.
We drank much the same as most nations but somehow we internalized the propaganda and now are stuck with the idea of us not being able to drink responsibly.
The worst part is it has become a sick sort of self fulfilling prophesy, coupled with the whole catholic guilt thing we hadn't a chance but keeping the stereotype going isn't helping.
We are self conscious about drinking and thats a historical thing not a genetic one.

grenache

tommy2bad wrote: »

I call bull manure on this. We are as mature as any other nation, this kind of nonsense is why no one who did anything wrong is never brought to account, "shure we all went mad" is just shifting the blame from the guilty to some kind of its all our fault.
We are ashamed of drinking because we were taught to disrespect drink, it was used to keep us down, drunken Irish, fighting Irish, whatever.
We drank much the same as most nations but somehow we internalized the propaganda and now are stuck with the idea of us not being able to drink responsibly.
The worst part is it has become a sick sort of self fulfilling prophesy, coupled with the whole catholic guilt thing we hadn't a chance but keeping the stereotype going isn't helping.
We are self conscious about drinking and thats a historical thing not a genetic one.

You've more or less proved my point there.

tommy2bad

grenache wrote: »

You've more or less proved my point there.

He He, posting while drunk, got me
Didn't claim we could spell or do grammar though

christmas2012

Ive realised something on my travels in a few places is that irish and english people drink way too much,they only drink with the sole purpose of getting drunk.I know theres a recent trend where there are people out there who enjoy the bottle of wine shared with a meal,but anytime i go out to the pubs now its off hours,i dont go when its packed as its always groups of idiots hanging around paraletic off thier face looking for needless drama..

Diarmuid

tommy2bad wrote: »

IWe drank much the same as most nations

No we don't. We are pretty much the top of league of alcohol consumption and binge drinking.

tommy2bad

Diarmuid wrote: »

No we don't. We are pretty much the top of league of alcohol consumption and binge drinking.

I was talking historically and we did. The current binge culture is not typical, it's a new aberration that we have in common with other countries.
Evidence here;
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/alcoholdrinkconsumptionpriceseurope.htm

Diarmuid

tommy2bad wrote: »

I was talking historically and we did. The current binge culture is not typical, it's a new aberration that we have in common with other countries.

From your link, it's two other countries, UK and Denmark.,
And here are the OECD 2009 charts. Top of the league!

tommy2bad

As I said, historically and the propaganda became a self fulfilling prophesy.
We agree?
Now what to do about it? Short of the price it out of reach solution.

actuallylike

grenache wrote: »

I would guess they have self repsect, and look for repsect from others. As a fellow alcohol trade employee, my guess is that customers don't want to be seen conciously carrying a bottle of alcohol around with them, as they and many others (rightfully) associate it with whinos, alcholics and bingers. Whinos, alcholics and bingers are and will never be a good thing. It just shows a bit of class to cover it up.

Wow, so you think it is shameful to drink? People should have some self respect? People who drink are rightfully associated with winos? It shows a bit of class to cover up your drinking? I think you're part of the problem here. You clearly see only one reason to drink and that is to get drunk, and not just drunk, embarrassingly drunk. That's quite sad to be honest, tarring all alcohol lovers as alcoholics. This is exactly what I was talking about, I want to buy a nice beer to enjoy the taste, or maybe a nice wine to share amongst friends and you will see me and judge me to be something I'm not. I just hope that societies view (which seems to be quite similar to your own) is taking a turn for the better and to be more acceptant and less judging.

The thread other than that seems to have gone a bit OT with comparisons to other countries regarding alcohol consumed. It's about the Irish shame attached to drinking. Is the shame and negative judgement (occasionally blind judgement towards someone you don't know) perhaps responsible for the higher intake of alcohol amongst us? By keeping it behind closed doors has it in fact made the consumption of alcohol in Ireland excessive? It was mentioned that European countries with less of a problem have their young experience alcohol at an early age, is this a factor? If we didn't hide it away, would there be more of an understanding of it and thus maybe a love and appreciation of it?

The Hill Billy

Mod warning added to Post 1.

tHB

Geuze

I was in Berlin last week.

You do see people walking out of shops at 9am with bottles of beer in their hands. Not sure if it was open.

At night, you do see young people on the streets / trams / trains with 33cl and 50cl bottles, happily swigging away. Though posters on the transit vehicles say it's verboten.

It does seem a more relaxed / casual attitude to beer.

In a Netto supermarket, 50cl bottles of beer were mostly less than a euro, as low as 25c.

70cl of vodka was as low as 4.99.

Geuze

I was in a basic burger takeaway with a few seat outside in Berlin.

The drinks offer was self-service - after you ordered food at the counter, you walked to a fridge, took out a bottle of beer, opened it yourself, and sat down with it.

No questions asked.

It seemed that you were free to walk back to the fridge, and get more beer, which I did.

Nobody recorded this, except that the bottles would be on your table.

Unreal compared to here, so trusting.

squonk

Geuze wrote: »

I was in a basic burger takeaway with a few seat outside in Berlin.

The drinks offer was self-service - after you ordered food at the counter, you walked to a fridge, took out a bottle of beer, opened it yourself, and sat down with it.

No questions asked.

It seemed that you were free to walk back to the fridge, and get more beer, which I did.

Nobody recorded this, except that the bottles would be on your table.

Unreal compared to here, so trusting.

In fairness they're great! I laughed reading your post. Here the fridge would be ransacked in minutes! It reminded me of arriving off a train in Vienna one Sunday morning to see newspapers hanging on bags from lamposts. You deposited your money and took a paper.... imagine how badly that system would fare here!

I think we have somewhat of a fascination with drink in this country. It's stigmatised because there's a few members of every family almost who are alcoholics. I think the fact that abuse of alcohol is so prevalent that it does tar those who enjoy their drinks in the eyes of many.

As was said, a lot of the problem is being let lose on the pub at the age of 18, though it appears many are starting to drink before then nowadays. I was a late drinker myself and din't get overly into it. Mind you, I had my mad nights out and severe hangovers but nowadays I like quality rather than quantity. A good bottle of beer at home is far preferable to downing pints of dishwater down at the local pub listening to idiots roaring at each other after binging. I don't know whether we as a nation were always like that. Certainly in the past money just wasn't there for people to hit the pub whenever they liked. Someone will have to look into that one if they have access to figures.

eaglebhoy

The original question here is an interesting one, I do feel that the Irish psyche tows a fine line, us Irish are almost as ashamed to be seen as someone who doesn't drink as we are to be seen as a dipso/alco !

Anyone Irish who has gone out with their mates swearing to all that is holy that they aren't drinking tonight for whatever reason (match/weight loss/injury/illness) has usually succumbed in the end due to peer ridicule and yes I do think that there are also plenty of us who worry about how our friends/family percieve our drinking level/frequency !

Brokentime

actuallylike wrote: »

I was over in Berlin a few months ago and their attitude amazed me. People wandering the streets with a beer in their hand without a care in the world. Saw one guy walk into the bar we were in with beer in hand, chat to the barmen, take his jacket off and start his shift! There’s no judgement there at all, nothing to judge.

I've lived in Shanghai, China, for over 2 years now. Used to live in Dublin. Over here, you can drink in public, and a lot of people do. Office workers and building workers will sit side-by-side in a park at lunchtime and have some beer. Go out for dinner, and most people, if not everyone, will have something to drink. Shops are open 24 hours and you can buy a drink if you want, and nobody will bat an eye at you. Their strongest drink over here, called bai jiu (pronounced: bye joe) can be up to 67% and you can buy it no questions asked.

A lot of the bars are open 24 hours, too, and yet you don't see people falling around the place drunk. Over here, people have a level of self-respect and 'face' so they control their actions. Drinking is not seen as a deviant or cool thing to do; it's just a normal part of life.

When I left Ireland, you were stared at if you had a beer in your hand anywhere outside a bar or restaurant. Happy hours were outlawed. Our once-happy culture of 'having a few scoops' was gone without a trace. You'd almost have to sneak into a bar sometimes, for fear of being judged.

Happier where I am now. Ireland has a lot of work to do to make it more user-friendly for anyone who likes a drink every now and then.

actuallylike

Brokentime wrote: »

I've lived in Shanghai, China, for over 2 years now. Used to live in Dublin. Over here, you can drink in public, and a lot of people do. Office workers and building workers will sit side-by-side in a park at lunchtime and have some beer. Go out for dinner, and most people, if not everyone, will have something to drink. Shops are open 24 hours and you can buy a drink if you want, and nobody will bat an eye at you. Their strongest drink over here, called bai jiu (pronounced: bye joe) can be up to 67% and you can buy it no questions asked.

A lot of the bars are open 24 hours, too, and yet you don't see people falling around the place drunk. Over here, people have a level of self-respect and 'face' so they control their actions. Drinking is not seen as a deviant or cool thing to do; it's just a normal part of life.

When I left Ireland, you were stared at if you had a beer in your hand anywhere outside a bar or restaurant. Happy hours were outlawed. Our once-happy culture of 'having a few scoops' was gone without a trace. You'd almost have to sneak into a bar sometimes, for fear of being judged.

Happier where I am now. Ireland has a lot of work to do to make it more user-friendly for anyone who likes a drink every now and then.

Yeah, it's a real catch-22 situation. If laws are relaxed you'll get people saying 'sure we're all drunks, it'll be a disaster', but I'm positive this attitude is because of the strict laws in the first place. Roll on minimum price alcohol now .

Brokentime

actuallylike wrote: »

Yeah, it's a real catch-22 situation. If laws are relaxed you'll get people saying 'sure we're all drunks, it'll be a disaster', but I'm positive this attitude is because of the strict laws in the first place. Roll on minimum price alcohol now .

The sad truth as I see it now is that if we had cut price booze, happy hours, and bars open 24 hours a day, Ireland would simply sink without a trace. Over here, when you first experience this freedom, you go a bit loopy. But then after a few weeks you mellow out and appreciate the freedoms more. But the entire country, especially in the slightly fractured and schizophrenic state it's in now, would fall apart. And it wouldn't be the quote unquote 'drinkers' who'd fall; it'd be the rest of them

grenache

actuallylike wrote: »

Wow, so you think it is shameful to drink? People should have some self respect? People who drink are rightfully associated with winos?

Firstly, stop misquoting me - i never said the highlighted bit. What i did say was people who carry drink around openly are likened to whinos. And yes, i think it's better to cover it up when walking down the street. Nothing wrong with that. There is a stigma attached to it. Call it Catholic guilt or whatever you like to call it. I didn't create it. I just know that given the choice i would put my alcohol in a bag, rather than just walk down the street with it showing. Funnily i've no problem with it being on show at home, i don't believe in locking it away from teens. Rather than, i believe they should be drip fed it from the age of 13/14 so that by the time they are 18, they'll have developed some respect for it.

actuallylike wrote: »

It shows a bit of class to cover up your drinking? I think you're part of the problem here. You clearly see only one reason to drink and that is to get drunk, and not just drunk, embarrassingly drunk. That's quite sad to be honest, tarring all alcohol lovers as alcoholics.

No i don't see only "one reason to drink", don't put words in my mouth. I believe the majority of people go out to enjoy themselves rather than to get drunk. But unfortunately, there is quite a sizeable minority in this country who feel the need to get wasted every weekend and cause trouble. Try walking down the streets of Dublin, Cork, Galway or Limerick on a Saturday night. It is quite intimidating if you're a sober person. I see fights every weekend. I go to Italy and France every year - i never see anything there like i do in Irish cities and towns.

actuallylike wrote: »

This is exactly what I was talking about, I want to buy a nice beer to enjoy the taste, or maybe a nice wine to share amongst friends and you will see me and judge me to be something I'm not. I just hope that societies view (which seems to be quite similar to your own) is taking a turn for the better and to be more acceptant and less judging.

Unfortunately there are enough people who are willing to take the pi$$ when it comes to alcohol abuse. My cousin works in A&E department in Limeick and every Saturday night, 90% of cases are alcohol related. The amount of $hit she has to endure is nothing short of a disgrace. She's been spat on, urinated on and attacked by individuals off their heads on drink/drugs. All because our nice government is in bed with the drinks industry, cosying up to it, instead of efficient regulating of it.

actuallylike wrote: »

The thread other than that seems to have gone a bit OT with comparisons to other countries regarding alcohol consumed. It's about the Irish shame attached to drinking. Is the shame and negative judgement (occasionally blind judgement towards someone you don't know) perhaps responsible for the higher intake of alcohol amongst us? By keeping it behind closed doors has it in fact made the consumption of alcohol in Ireland excessive? It was mentioned that European countries with less of a problem have their young experience alcohol at an early age, is this a factor? If we didn't hide it away, would there be more of an understanding of it and thus maybe a love and appreciation of it?

I 100% agree with you here. On the continent, especially in Spain, France and Italy, alcohol is an integral part of the dinner table, whether it be a glass of wine with lunch, a liquor to help digest the meal afterwards or a beer to have with a light snack. It's not hidden like here, and as i've mentioned above, adolescents are give a glass of wine with their meal, to develop a tolerance and respect for alcohol.

I think a lot if comes down to us Irish actually being quite shy and not all that confident in every day situations. Whether this is a specific nationalistic trait or is related to the fact we're a relatively young country, i do not yet know. What i do know is that our need for alcohol is far greater than it is in most European countries. To give us Dutch courage, things that French or Italians have in spades when sober. I'm going to dismiss the weather factor as the Scandinavian climate is not much better, yet they don't have nearly as bad endemic alcohol-related problems.

babi-hrse

Having a beer in public is tolerated by many gardai too, and rightly so. I would think it ridiculous to arrest a woman with her family out having a picnic on the beach and enjoying a glass of wine. Or arresting a man in his 50's strolling to the pub having his first can.[/QUOTE]

i've been questioned at roadsides by gardai asking me what i thought i was doing and instructed to empty the can immediatly. i drink what remains in the can and show them it's empty and we leave it at that it's not arrestable but they do pull over and have words out their squad car window. as for shame. i have no issues with walking down the street with 2 cans one in the coat pocket and one in my hand. i keep to myself (don't shout across the road to talk to other people or the like) and say hello to every neighbour i pass. im a young lad and it's saturday night, i work late and ill be damned if im going to get to the pub at 11pm and have 1 drink before everyone declares we're moving to a nightclub where the drink is piss and can cost 6 euros a pint. this saves money.

nice_very

*sigh* personally I dont give a fcuk who sees me in a pub or coming back from the offie, and anyone who does care what others think of them needs some help.

I hate having to go home at 11.30pm on a sunday (for example) because someone decided that is the time I (we) must leave the pub, been in manys the "lock in" in my time, and the general attitude is - FCUK the law.. hence my point - we drink because we are told not to, its all reverse psychology

Berwick

celticcrash wrote: »

1pm in Holland (years back) friends and I were having a drink and along came our swedish neighbour. Hello, whats the occasion? No occasion. Whos birthday is it? no ones birthday? Is it a special day back in Ireland? No.

Than why are you drinking at 1 o clock in the day? We are just having a drink. Our neighbour thought we were pulling his leg. After explaining to him that over in Ireland we drink for no reason and every reason, he just walked away shaking his head in disbelief. He could not grasp the concept that people would put alcohol into their bodys for no reason.

Overseas we are looked on as stupid drunkards.

Sweden is not the whole overseas world.

Here in Germany it is perfectly normal to drink wine or beer at the time mentioned.

As it is in most countries that I know.

T-K-O

OP

Not my friends. Why do Irish people keep putting ourselves down like this ... That Ireland (in my world) does not exist. This is 2012 not 1980 Ireland has moved on but some people love to talk the country and themselves down..