Ban chuggers?

miec

I just came across an article in the Telegraph in connection to people who work for fundraising companies and get you to sign up for monthly direct debits. The article is specific to the UK but I see this problem is very much alive in Ireland too, in particular Dublin.

I personally would like to see the practice disbanded, maybe even banned and make a point of not supporting those charities that use these chuggers.

I also sometimes get the feeling that the larger more 'professional' charities are extremely aggressive in their fundraising activities which I find off putting. What are your views on it?

The Corinthian

I have very little time for most charities. They're run ultimately as very profitable businesses, with top staff earning serious private sector salaries and bonuses, while constantly poor mouthing so that they can pay their junior staff buttons, if anything, or to be exempted from the responsibilities of other private ventures.

Chugging is the natural evolution of door-to-door and later street magazine sales of the 1990's. Those doing so are doing so on commission, not because they believe in any cause (although they may be sympathetic) and often the psychological means employed to get a subscription are unethical to say the least.

As to banning them, I'm spit on this. I would never sign up to a chugger-sold subscription. Then again, not everyone is like me (a sigh of relief from you, no doubt) and I've known people who have signed up multiple times and ended up paying well over €100 p.m. to various causes and, bless them, they need to be protected from themselves.

Perhaps restrictions may be a better way of going about this, allowing people to only subscribe to a maximum total of, say, €50 p.m. direct debits to charitable organizations. Or that subsequent confirmation must be given before the direct debit is activated, as a means to allow a 'cool off period'.

OS119

miec wrote: »

...What are your views on it?

i have a friend who despises the practice - and those who undertake it - so much that he'll sign-up to half a dozen every time he's in town and then immediately cancel them with his bank - so costing the 'charities' a fortune in administration costs and tying up the chugger for 20 minutes of excruciating conversation.

a thing on BBC Radio 4's 'moneybox' program suggested that if you sign up for a DD with a chugger, the first 3 years DD's pay for the chugger and his commission, and you only start benefiting the cause concerned in year 4...

its not just the 'rip-off' nature of the chugging that offends me, its the faux studenty/hippy/aid-workery nature of the chugger: there's an arse chugger in Shrewsbury with dreads, flared jeans and barefeet - he is, of course, white, middle class and university educated - who at the end of his shift can be seen getting into a new Diesel Mondeo and chatting on his iPhone. i couldn't tell you how many charities he's been a 'committed member of'...

my own view is that the issue requires a nuanced approach involving used car tyres and unleaded petrol.

Priori

I can't stand them either, they make me very uncomfortable. I had a very similar experience to this before.

miec

Lol, I'm loving the replies.

I am no fan of them myself and I have been that eegit who has donated their time to various charities only to find myself screwed metaphorically and as a consequence deeply mistrustful of them.

Then again, not everyone is like me (a sigh of relief from you, no doubt) and I've known people who have signed up multiple times and ended up paying well over €100 p.m. to various causes and, bless them, they need to be protected from themselves.

You are uniquely you but bloody hell thank God I am a tight wad and could never afford to give that much away but I can see how easily it happens.

its not just the 'rip-off' nature of the chugging that offends me, its the faux studenty/hippy/aid-workery nature of the chugger: there's an arse chugger in Shrewsbury with dreads, flared jeans and barefeet - he is, of course, white, middle class and university educated - who at the end of his shift can be seen getting into a new Diesel Mondeo and chatting on his iPhone. i couldn't tell you how many charities he's been a 'committed member of'...

Why am I not surprised at this. I think the whole concept of charity is losing its way, it is about business / making profit.

The Corinthian

miec wrote: »

You are uniquely you but bloody hell thank God I am a tight wad and could never afford to give that much away but I can see how easily it happens.

Of course it easily happens; it's designed to. The tactics behind chugging are actually identical to most short-con plays:

• The shy or mark is trapped into a discussion using social convention (they don't want to be rude and tell the grifter to piss off).
• Flirting, flattery or other familiarity is used to engender trust or a wish for the mark to please the grifter.
• The marks guilt and naivety is then exploited, along with a dismissive approach on the amount of money that they'll pay ("it's only the price of a pint").
• The whole process will take between five and twenty minutes, before the mark - either wishing to escape but unwilling to break social convention and be rude about it, or guilted into such a 'small' donation - finally succumbs.

Why am I not surprised at this. I think the whole concept of charity is losing its way, it is about business / making profit.

It lost it's way decades ago in Ireland. Compared to most Western countries, the Irish are quite charitable. This is not surprising as it is something that is even imprinted on us in school (e.g. primary school children being handed Trócaire boxes to fill). So it was bound to become big business.

Up until the late nineties it was also incredibly easy to set up an unregistered charity, operate and then vanish within 18 months; numerous door-to-door operations thrived during the eighties and nineties this way. Many used to be based in serviced offices in D1 or on or off Camdon street, the latter of which lead to the nickname "Scamdom street" at the time.

And that's just the smaller 'charities'. The big ones are as bad if not worse, IMHO, as they will pay volunteer (non-sales) workers peanuts (or nothing), look for everything for free from suppliers, yet will still be paying six-figure salaries to director level staff.

The whole concept of charity became a business in Ireland a long time ago and people realize this every few years (e.g. door-to-door magazine sales fell out of favour following a Herald expose around 1993). Then the tactical play changes and the business recovers within six months, until the new play becomes stale and the cycle repeats.

miec

I got caught out once like that, it was a guy at the door from a charity, and he used exactly those tactics you describe. The flirting (which I fell for) the its only a price of a pint, etc, oh and how he was giving to x amount of charities. Also here is a piece of irony, I was volunteering for a well known charity (a shop) during a period of unemployment, received nothing which I didn't mind as it kept me busy but learned that the area manager was on massive money. When its laid out there in the cold light of day its all a bit grubby. I remember after I signed up to that one direct debit above I felt angry with myself rather than pleased that I was giving, I had that ripped off feeling. I cancelled it after a month or two though. Maybe this thread will at least enable one or two people to pause before signing the direct debit line.

The Corinthian

If you want to deal with chuggers, it's quite easy.

• Ask to see the chugger's ID and make a (mental) note of their name.
• Then say that you'll happily donate as long as the chugger is not on commission of any type.

At this point 90% will let you go, without you needing to be rude about it.

If they claim they're not earning commission, then by all means sign up, then call up the charity that day and inquire, telling them that this person told you that they were not being paid commission. If it turns out that the chugger was lying or the charity is evasive to your inquiry, cancel the direct debit immediately. The chugger in question, who lied to you, will likely get reprimanded or even sacked.

wp_rathead

just smile and say you've already signed up to what ever bull**** they want to rope you into
they leave you alone and you don't look a dick:)

I support a small charity in India with a small dd...the reason I do it is because of (1) I want to support a charity (2) I like the way it works... half the money is given to a school and half to the family of the girl PROVIDED the girl stays in school.

I do not on principle support any charity's that employees chugers.

CathyMoran

I have voluntered for a charity that I believe in but the idea of people making money from it is repugnant to me - I avoid chuggars but you can normally tell the difference. I do feel that people should volunteer to collect for charites only and should never be paid to do it. My husband and I have both had bad experiences with over zellous charity collectors.

The Corinthian

Here's a voxpop and discussion from the BBC on the subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18951345

Procrastastudy

I wish they were more tightly (if at all) licensed. Its a free market and if this is how charities want to go about it fine but its there really a need for 3 - 5 of them in the little mall on the side of Stephen's green alone?

1 max on any given street imo.

kildare.17hmr

I used to be nice and say no thanks and try to keep walking but they are too pushy and cant take no for an answer. Now i tell them "i dont mean to be rude but before you start im not ****ing interested in listening to you" it seems to work so far

Sea Filly

• The shy or mark is trapped into a discussion using social convention (they don't want to be rude and tell the grifter to piss off).

I'm not this so, I always give them the frowning of a lifetime, and very often grit my teeth walking past too. I don't care what they or anyone else who might see thinks.

Giselle

A sharp 'NO' as they move in for the ambush usually stops them in their tracks, although its a skill I've just developed recently.

Much more intrusive to me is this 'bag packing' rubbish in supermarkets at peak times. You're basically cornered into allowing some stranger pack your bags in return for a donation to their musical society/cheerleaders squad/bdsm club. Its much harder to decline gracefully when they're going to be hovering around for several minutes.

Finnbar01

I can't stand them and just ignore them.

I'm also not fond of those people raising money so they can go cycling across France or hiking somewhere in South America.

stepbar

The Corinthian wrote: »

If you want to deal with chuggers, it's quite easy.

• Ask to see the chugger's ID and make a (mental) note of their name.
• Then say that you'll happily donate as long as the chugger is not on commission of any type.

At this point 90% will let you go, without you needing to be rude about it.

If they claim they're not earning commission, then by all means sign up, then call up the charity that day and inquire, telling them that this person told you that they were not being paid commission. If it turns out that the chugger was lying or the charity is evasive to your inquiry, cancel the direct debit immediately. The chugger in question, who lied to you, will likely get reprimanded or even sacked.

Or....

Just ignoring them is easier.

Denerick

What really annoys me are the pretty girls they employ to rope you in. There I am, walking down the street, minding my own business and a pretty girl randomly asks me if I'd like to speak to her for a few minutes. For a heartbeat my hormones reject the impulses of my logical brain, but ultimately I recognise her plastic smile, the phoney concern in her eyes, and the thinly veiled contempt in her demeanor.

The Corinthian

Denerick wrote: »

What really annoys me are the pretty girls they employ to rope you in. There I am, walking down the street, minding my own business and a pretty girl randomly asks me if I'd like to speak to her for a few minutes. For a heartbeat my hormones reject the impulses of my logical brain, but ultimately I recognise her plastic smile, the phoney concern in her eyes, and the thinly veiled contempt in her demeanor.

You can hardly blame them if you let your genitalia do your thinking though.

wp_rathead

the f**kers knocked on my door the last day in Galway asking for money..
its one thing to pester me in the streets- but NOT when watching the olympics!!!

Eliot Rosewater

A few years ago I worked as a chugger. I was on the job 2 and a half weeks before being fired for not making targets. I've a friend who now does the job for Concern. Two factual remarks:

1. Concern chuggers don't operate under commission. They've a fixed salary, and there's no real targets pressure. Paradoxically, they seem to be far more successful than "corporate chuggers".
2. When I was working (2009) the company charged the charity €100 for each direct debit. It's steepish, but a lot less than 3 years of the direct debit.

My own take is that it's equivalent to charities running ads on billboards. They hope to put in X amount of money, and get more than X out. I don't see an ethical issue.


A tip, because the methods of avoidance outlined so far are only so-so. What you need to do is maybe talk to one of them for two minutes and get their name. Then, when you're passing other chuggers, just say "I've been talking to Y". They then generally leave you alone. If you're lucky, the same team is on most times, so you can use the name over and over again.

jrmb

I'm approached by these curb crawlers every day and the sooner the practice is banned, the better. Once on St Stephen's Green, a friend and I were apprehended by a girl who attempted to pressure us into producing debit cards. When we told her we had none, she even asked us to phone someone at home to find our bank details, urging us to think of the children.

They even read out the amounts they'll accept, then offer a lower donation for students (as someone else said, "only the cost of a pint") and assure you that you can sign the agreement today while the deduction doesn't begin for another three months. It's outrageous.

It has become infuriating to be asked your name on the street, offered a hand shake or even told "Ohoho, you looked!". The very least we need is designated routes where this nuisance can be avoided.

StudentDad

The growth in the number of parasites/charities is a natural result of the disinterest of wider society towards those who actually need help.

If the State refuses to help citizens in dire situations the bottom feeders that are 'chuggers' naturally arrive to fill the void and make a profit for themselves in the process.

It's not new. The Church has been running on that model for centuries. The only difference is that the business sector has stepped into those areas no longer covered by religious institutions and/or State bodies.

SD

Blisterman

Is there a way of setting up a direct debit to a charity, for example Amnesty International directly without the chuggers getting any commission?

OldNotWIse

Hate them (well, what they do) and cannot fathom how they are still in operation (clearly people are actually taken in by them) :eek:

OldNotWIse

jrmb wrote: »

I'm approached by these curb crawlers every day and the sooner the practice is banned, the better. Once on St Stephen's Green, a friend and I were apprehended by a girl who attempted to pressure us into producing debit cards. When we told her we had none, she even asked us to phone someone at home to find our bank details, urging us to think of the children.

They even read out the amounts they'll accept, then offer a lower donation for students (as someone else said, "only the cost of a pint") and assure you that you can sign the agreement today while the deduction doesn't begin for another three months. It's outrageous.

It has become infuriating to be asked your name on the street, offered a hand shake or even told "Ohoho, you looked!". The very least we need is designated routes where this nuisance can be avoided.

Hate those smart fake-happy comments. Today I had, "oh look...the girl I've been waiting for all my life" (from a girl, and I'm a girl, I was like wtf?) Felt like pretending to buy into it and offer to meet her in the George for a pint But I was late for work so I just moved my umbrealla down to one side of my face to "block" her - felt so good You might even call it a "talk to the umbrella cause the face aint listening" kind of move lol

OldNotWIse

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

A few years ago I worked as a chugger. I was on the job 2 and a half weeks before being fired for not making targets. I've a friend who now does the job for Concern. Two factual remarks:

1. Concern chuggers don't operate under commission. They've a fixed salary, and there's no real targets pressure. Paradoxically, they seem to be far more successful than "corporate chuggers".
2. When I was working (2009) the company charged the charity €100 for each direct debit. It's steepish, but a lot less than 3 years of the direct debit.

My own take is that it's equivalent to charities running ads on billboards. They hope to put in X amount of money, and get more than X out. I don't see an ethical issue.


A tip, because the methods of avoidance outlined so far are only so-so. What you need to do is maybe talk to one of them for two minutes and get their name. Then, when you're passing other chuggers, just say "I've been talking to Y". They then generally leave you alone. If you're lucky, the same team is on most times, so you can use the name over and over again.

But a billboard doesn't actually block your path and interupt a conversation you're having with a friend, or act like a patronising git and tbh, why should we have to take the time to stop and find out names etc and offer any kind of explanation to them?

Feathers

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

My own take is that it's equivalent to charities running ads on billboards. They hope to put in X amount of money, and get more than X out. I don't see an ethical issue.

It's not unethical to put money in to get more money out (though most people will try to avoid charities with high admin charges — you don't want to get €20pm to find that only €2 is actually going to the cause), but it is unethical to waylay someone on the street & through a good sales pitch, bamboozle them into signing up for something they didn't want.

I'm quite happy holding my own with these guys though, if I'm not on lunch or with friends, I'll chat away to them. I try to give them a sporting chance & tell them upfront that I won't give them money though they generally don't listen & I waste 5–10 minutes of their time.

J_E

Blisterman wrote: »

Is there a way of setting up a direct debit to a charity, for example Amnesty International directly without the chuggers getting any commission?

The guys working for Amnesty Int. are in-house and don't get paid commission.

OldNotWIse

Cydoniac wrote: »

The guys working for Amnesty Int. are in-house and don't get paid commission.

I've seen Amnesty chuggers on the street

Milk & Honey

I stare them in the eye, say "no thanks" and keep walking purposefully in a straight line, through the chugger if necessary. They can stand around in the street till hell freezes over, for all I care.

Charl0tte

I really can't stand them. It's fine and well if these people are doing something good for charity, but they're putting people under pressure to give when they can barely afford it themselves. I give when I can afford it, be it through change, clothes or whatever else I have to give to the charity shops. I genuinely couldn't do any more than that, because if I could I would. They're deliberately aggressive. Strong personalities are hard to dodge, especially when they stand in your path. Bring on the ban I say.

OldNotWIse

Charl0tte wrote: »

I really can't stand them. It's fine and well if these people are doing something good for charity, but they're putting people under pressure to give when they can barely afford it themselves. I give when I can afford it, be it through change, clothes or whatever else I have to give to the charity shops. I genuinely couldn't do any more than that, because if I could I would. They're deliberately aggressive. Strong personalities are hard to dodge, especially when they stand in your path. Bring on the ban I say.

Yup, and their ridiculous smarmy, over-friendly attitude - drives me spare. It's like, "Ok, you dont know me, stop talking to me. Please do not interupt me when I am clearly trying to get from A to B and also obviously having a conversation with my friend" - thats it, so help me God the next chugger I come across will be sorry they ever invaded my personal space!!!

I first encountered a chugger when I moved to Dublin to attend college several years ago. Being from semi-rural Galway I'd never came across one before, so I was a little taken aback by my first confrontation. I think she worked for Trócaire, or perhaps Focus Ireland — I'm not sure, over the next few months I bumped into so many of them that the sum total of their annoyance is blended into one memory. Before I knew it, before I realised what I was doing, I was filling out a form on a clipboard giving her my details. I didn't, though. I filled in a friend's details, giving his name, address, phone number, email address, and so on, and told her to ring "me" later on that evening so I could give her my bank account details. Needless to say my friend was quite surprised when he received a call asking for his details, and was somewhat startled and perplexed over how the caller had managed to gather so much information about him. I used this tactic several more times, always giving the same friend's name, and pledging to give extremely generous monthly donations (two or three times higher than what was requested). Eventually this became too time consuming and, after building up a tough enough skin to ignore their platitudes and smarmy, ingratiating attitude, I just started to blank their advances, often with my hand, and continue walking.

I felt slightly guilty for this — especially for wasting their time giving false information. I thought they were all volunteers. Now, with the knowledge that many receive commission or other forms of payment, I might revert back to my old tactic and waste a little more time.

Feathers

gvn wrote: »

I felt slightly guilty for this — especially for wasting their time giving false information. I thought they were all volunteers. Now, with the knowledge that many receive commission or other forms of payment, I might revert back to my old tactic and waste a little more time.

Think you forgot to put quotation marks around the word friend. You felt more guilty about wasting these guys' time rather than harassing your mate? You're worse than the chuggers, they're trying to talk to strangers while they're out & about — you're giving out personal details of people you know & the chuggers will be extra pushy as they think they nearly have a sale.

Feathers

Feathers wrote: »

Think you forgot to put quotation marks around the word friend. You felt more guilty about wasting these guys' time rather than harassing your mate? You're worse than the chuggers, they're trying to talk to strangers while they're out & about — you're giving out personal details of people you know & the chuggers will be extra pushy as they think they nearly have a sale.

I think calling it harassment might be a little hyperbolic. It was a joke — clearly understood as such by my friend (this friend being one who has done similar things to me in the past). A sort of running, reciprocal joke. That it wasted the chuggers' time is irrelevant at worst and a good thing at best; that it was a humorous annoyance to a friend of mine is no concern of yours. So your self-righteous, faux-indignant accusation of me being "worse than the chuggers" is unwelcome, erroneous and exaggerated.

Feathers

gvn wrote: »

I think calling it harassment might be a little hyperbolic. It was a joke — clearly understood as such by my friend (this friend being one who has done similar things to me in the past). A sort of running, reciprocal joke. That it wasted the chuggers' time is irrelevant at worst and a good thing at best; that it was a humorous annoyance to a friend of mine is no concern of yours. So your self-righteous, faux-indignant accusation of me being "worse than the chuggers" is unwelcome, erroneous and exaggerated.

Obviously not talking about the legal definition of harassment, so you can save your faux-unwelcomingness for my faux-indignation Think you've read my tone more strongly that I've written it. Still though, giving the same friends details every time is pushing it.

When Meteor starting doing free texts, one of my mates thought it would be funny to fill my inbox with texts, so I couldn't get any messages — sent me about 100 messages. I must've sent him about 3000 back — If I were him, I'd be planning something

Feathers

Feathers wrote: »

Obviously not talking about the legal definition of harassment, so you can save your faux-unwelcomingness for my faux-indignation Think you've read my tone more strongly that I've written it. Still though, giving the same friends details every time is pushing it.

When Meteor starting doing free texts, one of my mates thought it would be funny to fill my inbox with texts, so I couldn't get any messages — sent me about 100 messages. I must've sent him about 3000 back — If I were him, I'd be planning something

I'm sorry — I did take you up wrong. It's been a long day and my meter for sensing sincerity and humour isn't functioning all too well. I believe I gave his details 3 times, after which it became old — both for me and for him. He got me back in the end, though, just like you got your friend back; he signed me up for several newsletters and free magazines, delivered by post and sent to my home address in my name, that were ... not exactly suitable for parental viewing, let's just say. All in the name of fun, I guess.

Anyway, we better not drag this thread off-topic, I'm sure that doing so is frowned upon in these parts.

DeltaWhite

The only Charity I support is anything to do with cancer. 6 members of my family have either had, or died from various types of cancer and I myself will probably be looking at the same fate in a few years. (so my doctor tells me) So basically when I get one of these people coming running up to me even with my earphones in or I'm on the phone, I literally tell them the above and their faces drop ha

Some dont even give a toss, they just keep rambling and I dismiss them and walk off. But mostly I just tell them that I never EVER give my bank details to anyone, ever. But I have to say those chuggers p*ss me off with their overbearing, fake friendly behaviour. Running up and shouting in peoples faces is not the way to go...

OldNotWIse

DeltaWhite wrote: »

The only Charity I support is anything to do with cancer. 6 members of my family have either had, or died from various types of cancer and I myself will probably be looking at the same fate in a few years. (so my doctor tells me) So basically when I get one of these people coming running up to me even with my earphones in or I'm on the phone, I literally tell them the above and their faces drop ha

Some dont even give a toss, they just keep rambling and I dismiss them and walk off. But mostly I just tell them that I never EVER give my bank details to anyone, ever. But I have to say those chuggers p*ss me off with their overbearing, fake friendly behaviour. Running up and shouting in peoples faces is not the way to go...

So sorry to hear that, its such an awful fear to have to live with

You know another thing I wonder about (though maybe not strictly related to the chugger issue) - there is an increasing number of people going around pubs now with clipboards, claiming to be from some charity to supprt x,y or z and asking for people to sponsor them. I have not heard of any of these charities and (maybe I am being cynical) I wonder if these are genuine? We were approached by a woman claiming to be collecting for some local community depression support group (one which I would support as I have a very good friend and also a close family member who suffer from depression) and when a member of our group told her that she suffered from depression, the woman was completely stuck for words and mumbled something before rushing off

DeltaWhite

I agree ^^^ definitely some risky business going on, good few people have knocked on my door and look for money for their "Charity" but cant show me any ID, just a print out of some BS that I havent the time or compassion to read but I dont trust them wont be gettin money off me!!