Sick of Unemployed People Getting abuse on

miss.aok

daltonmd wrote: »

To be honest dchris there is something in what he says. We know there are people struggling, that's not in question - but when you delve into a lot of peoples finances you do find that mobile phones, internet, cars and repaying loans, are put as the reason as to why some are struggling.

They are not struggling because SW is too low - they are struggling because it doesn't cover the remnants of when they worked and brought in a decent income.

Cars, mobile phones, internet - these are luxuries and just because people feel "entitled" to them doesn't change that.

ok so il just get rid of the car, mobile phone and internet- ok so now i go and apply for work............crap i have no internet access.......better drive to the nearest libary...... no car........ok il walk to the library.......i dont have a phone what number will i put on my cv? damn............i will walk around and and put my cv in places........ sorry without a car we cant employ you.......thats ok not all jobs need a car....guess i am limited to jobs where the bus takes me.........we all arent privileged to having a dublin bus service some of us only have bus eireann and there over priced fares.

a luxury is something that we want- ipod, ipad, holiday big fancy car (not a cheap gets us by car) eat out everyday, hair extensions,


get a grip mate and stop ****tin on like i just did.

struggling sam

daltonmd wrote: »

Then the allowance should be for 20 euro pm - not the generous package that is paid now.

My allowance is €22.58 per month.

It sure is - so why hasn't the SW rates reflected that fact? And the fact is that more people depending on such packages have power - why don't the SW say to the ESB and other companies - we hae x amount of people relying on the state for this help - give me your best low offer and we'll give you the contract?

Same with the phones?

Agree 100%

Sin City

Stabshauptmann

dchris wrote: »

I am sick of unemployed people getting stick on here for being lazy, or cheating the system, or not bothering to look for work.

I think people should make themselves aware of the facts and figures when it comes to social welfare expenditure in Ireland. A lot of people on here say things that are just ignorant of any facts.

Back in 2007 we had what is considered "full employment" which means that the unemployment rate is about 4% or less. This 4% equates to about 157K people. Now unemployment is at 15% almost a 4 fold increase in unemployment. However the amount paid out in Social Welfare Expenditure in 2007 was 15Billion, In 2011 it was 20 Billion

2007
Unemployment 4 % (157k)
Social Welfare Expenditure 15 Billion

2011
Unemployment 15% (440k)
Social Welfare Expenditure 20 Billion

It is clear to me that despite c. 300% increase in the amount of people unemployed, the expenditure only increased by 33%

Ok, so lets talk facts.

This table is taken from the estimates for the 2012 budget
http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

There has been an 88% increase in Jobseekers payments since 2008.
I could not find the 2007 details (strapped for time right now) but you are saying the total SW bill was 15bn, vs 17bn in 2008, it would most surely be a greater increase since 2007.

So, relevant expenditure has approx doubled since 2007, not increased by 33%.

Year 2008 2009 2010 2011
Unemployment benefits 2,088 3,730 4,094 3,918
Other Social Welfare payments 15,653 16,705 17,249 17,029
Total SW Bill 17,741 20,435 21,343 20,947
Other Governement spending _ _ _ _
Health 15,356 15,470 14,777 13,901
Education 8,465 8,589 8,667 8,678
Justice 2,565 2,514 2,364 2,400
Other 9,256 8,711 7,114 7,145
Total Exp 53,383 55,719 54,265 53,071

Sleepy

KittyG wrote: »

I would posit that the answer is to try and stimulate the sectors effected and create job growth.

Err.. did you not notice what happened last time we stimulated the construction industry?

KittyG

Sleepy wrote: »

Err.. did you not notice what happened last time we stimulated the construction industry?

What do you suggest then?

Delancey

Delighted to see that I'm not the only person on boards.ie who thinks the attacks on the unemployed are getting a bit much.

We have a massive and growing unemployment crisis , doubtless there are lazy gits out there as there was in the boom and I agree that the 100,000+ claiming then should have been tackled but due to Government inertia nothing was done.

Look at construction - from a high of 270,000 employees it is now at 107,000 and likely to dip below 100,000 - that is the extent of the collapse , labelling the unemployed as spongers or lazy is deeply counter productive and unfair.

Sleepy

KittyG wrote: »

What do you suggest then?

A fairly massive contraction of all our public current expenditure: welfare rates, salaries, elimination of non essential quangos i.e. a take-no-prisoners effort to bring our budget into balance within the next 3 years (we should already be here imho - it's been 4 years since 2008).

While I'd cut salaries in all levels of public education, I'd be trying to increase expenditure in other areas: hiring more teachers and SNA's, getting more of the under-educated (or simply mis-educated) young men and women who were involved in our construction industry re-trained.

I'd close FÁS and establish a new job training organisation from scratch: the rot goes far too deep in that organisation for it to be worth restoring and most of it's employees belong the other side of the desk imo.

Then, it's a long slow grind for us to regain our competitiveness, attract more FDI, encourage indigenous industry in any way we can.

I'd agree with the poster who said that the Job-bridge program should involve some form of employer contribution towards the intern's "top-up" and that it needs to be managed by a less incompetent organisation than FÁS to prevent it being used to exploit young people's efforts in low-skilled positions (e.g. the van drivers' assistants and shelf stacking internships we've all seen.). Where there's a genuine opportunity for someone to gain worthwhile experience, however e.g. IT, engineering internships I'm all for it.

I could go on for hours tbh. Who wouldn't want to change things?

woodoo

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Year 2008 2009 2010 2011
Unemployment benefits 2,088 3,730 4,094 3,918
Other Social Welfare payments 15,653 16,705 17,249 17,029
Total SW Bill 17,741 20,435 21,343 20,947
Other Governement spending _ _ _ _
Health 15,356 15,470 14,777 13,901
Education 8,465 8,589 8,667 8,678
Justice 2,565 2,514 2,364 2,400
Other 9,256 8,711 7,114 7,145
Total Exp 53,383 55,719 54,265 53,071

I think Other Welfare Spending should be tackles in the budget. Its very high.

FreudianSlippers

The simple fact that people believe they are entitled to all of these benefits for nothing is astonishing. €20/month so you can have a mobile? Give me a break!

road_high

David Cameron in England is discussing reform of the (far less generous) weld=fare system in England today.

Rasheed

Delancey wrote: »

Delighted to see that I'm not the only person on boards.ie who thinks the attacks on the unemployed are getting a bit much.

We have a massive and growing unemployment crisis , doubtless there are lazy gits out there as there was in the boom and I agree that the 100,000+ claiming then should have been tackled but due to Government inertia nothing was done.

Look at construction - from a high of 270,000 employees it is now at 107,000 and likely to dip below 100,000 - that is the extent of the collapse , labelling the unemployed as spongers or lazy is deeply counter productive and unfair.

No you are right here. I don't think any person here would begrudge a tradesman that his job, I def wouldn't anyway. But it's that 100,000 that wreak my head!

Someone pointed out to me earlier that some of that 100,000 were probably genuine having come out of college etc, fair enough but not 100,000+.

As you also mentioned, bit late now giving out. We haven't got the money to weed out the bad eggs now!

dchris

AlekSmart wrote: »

Im afraid that whilst all of dchris's points do have a relevance the core question of "Expensive Ireland" can be answered,at least in part,by pointing to the cost of maintaining the caring,sharing society so necessary to the likes of Struggling Sam...



I would also disagree with Dchris on the basic issue of every unemployed person being denigrated by posters...by far and away most of the ire I have read in such posts tends to be very specifically directed at the sizeable number of the "Proffessionally Unemployable" who have made the Social Welfare system their own playground.

I'm also concerned that Dchris may still have a somewhat poorly defined sense of priorities contributing to his upset...

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Ok, so lets talk facts.

This table is taken from the estimates for the 2012 budget
http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

There has been an 88% increase in Jobseekers payments since 2008.
I could not find the 2007 details (strapped for time right now) but you are saying the total SW bill was 15bn, vs 17bn in 2008, it would most surely be a greater increase since 2007.

So, relevant expenditure has approx doubled since 2007, not increased by 33%.

Year 2008 2009 2010 2011
Unemployment benefits 2,088 3,730 4,094 3,918
Other Social Welfare payments 15,653 16,705 17,249 17,029
Total SW Bill 17,741 20,435 21,343 20,947
Other Governement spending _ _ _ _
Health 15,356 15,470 14,777 13,901
Education 8,465 8,589 8,667 8,678
Justice 2,565 2,514 2,364 2,400
Other 9,256 8,711 7,114 7,145
Total Exp 53,383 55,719 54,265 53,071

What I said was Social Welfare Expenditure increased by 33% .. It went from c. 15 bn to 20 bn _Not Job seekers benefit.

And that despite there being 3 times as many unemployed, Unemployment benefits only doubled. And overall the Social Welfare Expenditure in total only increased by 33%

carm

daltonmd wrote: »

Then the allowance should be for 20 euro pm - not the generous package that is paid now.

Apologies if I missed this somewhere else in this thread, but what is the SW allowance for a phone and what percentage of SW recipients are in receipt of this fantastic package?

Are you referring to the very small minority of people who receive the household package (those over 70s, carers, disability) or is there some package that hasn't been attacked through the media that I've missed?

goz83

dchris wrote: »

I am sick of unemployed people getting stick on here for being lazy, or cheating the system, or not bothering to look for work.

For the unemployed guilty of this, I say dish out the stick. For those who are trying to find employment and have had no luck, despite making every effort, I have every sympathy. We all know there are spongers and there are others who want to work. Give the stick to the spongers.

dchris

GarIT wrote: »

I could really tell you different, 42 inch 3D smart tv with sky+ HD and sky sports and multiroom, 3 phones in the house, fast broadband, 4 xboxes, 4 laptops a Wii and a 3ds. All paid for be social welfare and careful budgeting.

Are you suggesting that you are a single parent and can afford all this from benefits alone?

christmas2012

bullshit no way you can get all that on welfare and im talking from experience..

dchris

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm also concerned that Dchris may still have a somewhat poorly defined sense of priorities contributing to his upset...

Sam is on Disability Allowance, not Job-seekers allowance, I'am not sure if you read that. He mentioned he had a car. I was not going to be so nosey to question the nature of his disability and whether or not he needs his car. But some people do need a car if they are unemployed - disability or not. Not everyone lives in Dublin with bus services/Darts, Rail etc.

So I don't appreciate the accusation that I have "poorly defined sense of priorities" I just do not make generalisations about peoples situations based on what I want to believe.

Dr Galen

As per the charter, this is not the forum to be posting anecdotal stories about what you have or have not seen or heard.

There is a real discussion that can be had around this subject, without resorting to low level stuff.

Thanks

DrG

Forest Demon

Just because somebody is on welfare does not mean that everything they buy is from welfare money. You are allowed to have 25k in savings before it even affects your welfare payments.

They might have bought a car for instance while they where working and still have it. They might have sell something else that they bought while they where working. They might have bought a TV from their redundancy money. They might have saved 40 quid a week and lived on pasta and water for all people know. They might have gotten some money from a relative.

Seriously as per the OP said people need to stop judging others for being unemployed. You might find yourself in the same position someday no matter how arrogant you or self assured you are. It can happen to anyone. They are called entitlements for a reason.

Think about the fact that there is 26 people unemployed for every job created in Ireland at the moment. That's the competition if you have the skills, education, qualifications or experience. That doesn't even take into account that there is no guarantee that a job created will go to somebody in Ireland. A lot of the multi national company's will end up employing people from abroad to come and live in Ireland. The government has incentives in place to encourage this practice.

If you are single and young then you can take any job and doss on a couch and get by or you can go travelling. If you have a family then it is not as simple as that. I would be more for supporting people as they go to work rather then hitting those on welfare with huge cuts at a time that there are simply not enough jobs no matter how much effort people make. The system does need reform like most institutions of this state but the only thing huge cuts in welfare will equal at a time when there is a lack of jobs is higher crime.

Its not that its a life of luxury on welfare that is the issue. Some people have given up as they have lost their self confidence. Others don't have the skills or education. Its not all about a lack of dignity or that people are lazy. I would say 1 to 2% at most would fall into the lazy bracket and that have no obstacles in their way.

daltonmd

struggling sam wrote: »

I do get help with phone/esb/and rent allowance. Only phone and esb are related to the disability, and lest you forget, I do get a free tv license. If I had a co-habitating partner on SW, I would still get these benefits.

Because the benefits are YOURS - should your benefits be reduced or your partners, if you had one?

struggling sam wrote: »

My point, once again, is that co-habitating couples, both of whom are on SW availing of the benefits they are entitled to, are better of than a single person. Whether this means that couples or couples with families should have some entitlements scaled back or changes made to the single person, I do not know. I am making the point about the system, not necessarily my own circumstances. I recognise that the Disability Benefits are quite good and am thankful for that.

I a staggered at this. It's not enough that working/not working - public/private, old/young are at each others throat - but now SW recipients too?

struggling sam wrote: »

But I cannot understand how anyone can believe that two cannot live cheaper than one, even with the reduced benefit for the dependent qualifying adult.

Nobody said that and it is not reflected in the system - the second person, who was a fully paid up taxpayer has taken a large reduction and the benifit is worth 111 Euro as opposed to 188. They are not getting double payments.

daltonmd

miss.aok wrote: »

ok so il just get rid of the car, mobile phone and internet- ok so now i go and apply for work............crap i have no internet access.......better drive to the nearest libary...... no car........ok il walk to the library.......i dont have a phone what number will i put on my cv? damn............i will walk around and and put my cv in places........ sorry without a car we cant employ you.......thats ok not all jobs need a car....guess i am limited to jobs where the bus takes me.........we all arent privileged to having a dublin bus service some of us only have bus eireann and there over priced fares.

a luxury is something that we want- ipod, ipad, holiday big fancy car (not a cheap gets us by car) eat out everyday, hair extensions,


get a grip mate and stop ****tin on like i just did.

Is there something wrong with you? Can you not discuss in a civil manner?

You see it's like this MATE:

Social Welfare is NOT for CARS, NOT for INTERNET and NOT for MOBILE PHONES ok?

You should really take a good look at your post. It really sums up what is wrong in this country. A generation of spoilt brats - who cannot differentiate between a luxury and a neccesity.

What do you think people did when they couldn't afford cars - because not everyone could 20 years ago - how did they manage?

How did we manage without the internet?

I know plenty of people, myself included who don't have cars.
You know why?

Because I couldn't afford it. It's called cutting your cloth to fit.

An alien concept I know, but there you go.

BTW - I don't live in Dublin. I take the bus.

AlekSmart

carm wrote: »

Apologies if I missed this somewhere else in this thread, but what is the SW allowance for a phone and what percentage of SW recipients are in receipt of this fantastic package?

Are you referring to the very small minority of people who receive the household package (those over 70s, carers, disability) or is there some package that hasn't been attacked through the media that I've missed?

The media did indeed have a recent attack of the wobblies on the "Communion Allowance" topic...which is another of the "Discretionary Payments" available to those on Supplementary Welfare Allowance who know about them......;)

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/community_welfare_officers.html

The Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme is funded and legislated for by the Department of Social Protection. The payments made under this scheme include: weekly Supplementary Welfare Allowance, Rent Supplement, Mortgage Interest Supplement, Diet and Heating Supplements, Back to School Clothing and Footwear Scheme and exceptional needs payments for items such as buggies, clothing, etc.

The key is the "etc".

KyussBishop

People defrauding Welfare should be fined and/or serve prison sentences where appropriate; people using Welfare fraud as a reason to cut Welfare though, speak as if most people on Welfare are defrauding the state.
It's a simple implied generalization "there are people defrauding Welfare 'x anecdotal case of family living it large on Welfare', therefore all people on Welfare are lazy bastards, we need to cut Welfare etc.".

When the lack of jobs gets pointed out, you get "oh we're not just making this up! 'insert y, z anecdotal cases of welfare fraud'", or "but there are jobs out there! 'insert example of job offerings'", ignoring again that just a tiny minority of welfare recipients engage in fraud, and that supply of available jobs falls far short of that required to make up for unemployment.

Of course, for many people bashing welfare, examining the logical flaws in their arguments, or the actual stats, is often in the least of their interests compared to repeating the same refuted talking points, just to bash welfare.


It's also silly the begrudgery over basic amenities as well; how on earth is an internet connection or a mobile phone an excess these days? For me, it only costs €20 every six months to use my phone, just to avoid getting disconnected for disuse. With Internet, you can get by with as little as €8 a month.

Internet access is near-essential these days as well, in looking for jobs and expanding opportunities, and can save you expenses in loads of other areas from books/music/TV/film/etc., is even a source of training for potential jobs too, not to mention a way to do work as well (I'm self employed programming, so would be screwed without), and for many is even integrated into their social life through social networks, so it's pretty awesome value for money, not to mention a practical necessity.


To bring down SW costs, the cost of living in Ireland needs to be examined and addressed; I don't know the detailed reasons why cost of living is so expensive, but the cost of housing has been a significant factor, as well as commodity prices (food in particular; basic weekly shopping is often a significant expense), inflated utility prices and the like.

All that stuff needs to be addressed, to make the economy more efficient in general, and to make meeting a basic standard of living and securing a decent future more easily manageable.

AlekSmart

dchris wrote: »

Sam is on Disability Allowance, not Job-seekers allowance, I'am not sure if you read that. He mentioned he had a car. I was not going to be so nosey to question the nature of his disability and whether or not he needs his car. But some people do need a car if they are unemployed - disability or not. Not everyone lives in Dublin with bus services/Darts, Rail etc.

So I don't appreciate the accusation that I have "poorly defined sense of priorities" I just do not make generalisations about peoples situations based on what I want to believe.

Apologies Dchris if you consider it accusatory,I would describe it as more observational.

The good news for Sam,is that as a DA client he will now have a Free Travel Pass for himself and perhaps a companion should his disability qualify him.

So,as he himself says,the DSP schemes are of a quite generous nature indeed,but I feel the issue remains as to whether they can be maintained at these levels based upon the contributions of the remainder....

This has nothinh whatever to do with bad-mouthing the "Unemployed" at all......it's about running out of money to pay the bills.....

dazed+confused

I thought Boards was just for killing time in work? Why would you be on here if you were unemployed?

Peanut

woodoo wrote: »

I think Other Welfare Spending should be tackles in the budget. Its very high.

4x Other Welfare payments vs. Unemployment payments looks like a broken system alright, at least on first glance.

There is the political argument of course - keeping the voters placated long enough to push through necessary reforms. The last thing that's needed is some ultra-leftist party coming to power which would completely screw up any progress made so far.

Keeping benefits higher than they perhaps should be may be part of a necessary expense in trying to avoid this situation.

puffishoes

Forest Demon wrote: »

Just because somebody is on welfare does not mean that everything they buy is from welfare money. You are allowed to have 25k in savings before it even affects your welfare payments.

It's irrelevant what the bought before the SW, the problem is if they're using the SW to finance it. one would argue if you have 25k in the bank you have the means for a basic standard of living for aprox 4 years. why would you claim SW?

Forest Demon wrote: »

They might have bought a car for instance while they where working and still have it. They might have sell something else that they bought while they where working. They might have bought a TV from their redundancy money. They might have saved 40 quid a week and lived on pasta and water for all people know. They might have gotten some money from a relative.

Maybe, but why should the tax payer fund the tv license? the ntl packages and sky and what not? if you can't afford to maintain your television. get rid of it. if you can and fund it from savings/redundancy etc take it we're not discussing _you_

Forest Demon wrote: »

Seriously as per the OP said people need to stop judging others for being unemployed. You might find yourself in the same position someday no matter how arrogant you or self assured you are. It can happen to anyone. They are called entitlements for a reason.

ntl is _not_ an entiltment nor is sky or broadband packages etc etc. non essentials the tax payer should not be footing the bill for.

Forest Demon wrote: »

Think about the fact that there is 26 people unemployed for every job created in Ireland at the moment. That's the competition if you have the skills, education, qualifications or experience. That doesn't even take into account that there is no guarantee that a job created will go to somebody in Ireland. A lot of the multi national company's will end up employing people from abroad to come and live in Ireland. The government has incentives in place to encourage this practice.

I don't see your point? what are you suggesting?

Forest Demon wrote: »

If you are single and young then you can take any job and doss on a couch and get by or you can go travelling. If you have a family then it is not as simple as that. I would be more for supporting people as they go to work rather then hitting those on welfare with huge cuts at a time that there are simply not enough jobs no matter how much effort people make. The system does need reform like most institutions of this state but the only thing huge cuts in welfare will equal at a time when there is a lack of jobs is higher crime.

how can we create job when our resources are going into financing people not working instead of job creation?

Forest Demon wrote: »

Its not that its a life of luxury on welfare that is the issue. Some people have given up as they have lost their self confidence. Others don't have the skills or education. Its not all about a lack of dignity or that people are lazy. I would say 1 to 2% at most would fall into the lazy bracket and that have no obstacles in their way.

I don't see how given them too much money on a weekly basis addresses any of the above problems?

daltonmd

KyussBishop wrote: »

People defrauding Welfare should be fined and/or serve prison sentences where appropriate; people using Welfare fraud as a reason to cut Welfare though, speak as if most people on Welfare are defrauding the state.
It's a simple implied generalization "there are people defrauding Welfare 'x anecdotal case of family living it large on Welfare', therefore all people on Welfare are lazy bastards, we need to cut Welfare etc.".

When the lack of jobs gets pointed out, you get "oh we're not just making this up! 'insert y, z anecdotal cases of welfare fraud'", or "but there are jobs out there! 'insert example of job offerings'", ignoring again that just a tiny minority of welfare recipients engage in fraud, and that supply of available jobs falls far short of that required to make up for unemployment.

Of course, for many people bashing welfare, examining the logical flaws in their arguments, or the actual stats, is often in the least of their interests compared to repeating the same refuted talking points, just to bash welfare.


It's also silly the begrudgery over basic amenities as well; how on earth is an internet connection or a mobile phone an excess these days? For me, it only costs €20 every six months to use my phone, just to avoid getting disconnected for disuse. With Internet, you can get by with as little as €8 a month.

Internet access is near-essential these days as well, in looking for jobs and expanding opportunities, and can save you expenses in loads of other areas from books/music/TV/film/etc., is even a source of training for potential jobs too, not to mention a way to do work as well (I'm self employed programming, so would be screwed without), and for many is even integrated into their social life through social networks, so it's pretty awesome value for money, not to mention a practical necessity.


To bring down SW costs, the cost of living in Ireland needs to be examined and addressed; I don't know the detailed reasons why cost of living is so expensive, but the cost of housing has been a significant factor, as well as commodity prices (food in particular; basic weekly shopping is often a significant expense), inflated utility prices and the like.

All that stuff needs to be addressed, to make the economy more efficient in general, and to make meeting a basic standard of living and securing a decent future more easily manageable.

All of this is very well but you don't address the main problem. And that simply is, that we do not have the money to maintain these high rates of benefits.

It is not begrudgery to comment on people who are on the dole who rate a car and internet as a basic neccessity, the phone, well I'll concede the point, but not if you are locked into a 24 month contract for an iPhone.


The definition of amentiy is : Something that contributes to physical or material comfort.
The definition of a necessity is:




In your view, and you are not alone - internet and a car, whether you are working or not, is something that you absolutely cannot live without?

Really?

Gurgle

daltonmd wrote: »

It is not begrudgery to comment on people who are on the dole who rate a car and internet as a basic neccessity

Most of the country has no useful public transport whatsoever. A car is a necessity.

The internet doesn't quite rate necessity, but its damn close.

A phone is a necessity, an iPhone is not.

A TV is not, especially if you have internet access.
A big fancy new TV is an unnecessary luxury whatever way you look at it, as is a subscription to Sky / UPC.

But all of this is irrelevant really, the current system sets no conditions on how people spend their welfare.