Should prostitution be legalised? Or what...

gaffer91

My position is the majority one in this thread, that prostitution should be legal and regulated. To make a law, people should not impose their morals on others. If you are opposed to two consenting adults making a transaction for sex, then just don't do it yourself and don't mind what other people do.

Many of the people speak about the trafficking of prostitutes. While this is an issue, it is exaggerated out of all proportion by the criminalisation brigade. This Report states that "the large majority of interviewed migrant workers in the UK sex industry are not forced nor trafficked". This report in the guardian shows up many of the baseless claims about trafficking. Anecdotal reports from Gardai also suggest that most prostitutes do not work under any duress. Figures supporting the view of widespread trafficking have been found lacking. The simple fact of the matter is that while prostitution is not an ideal occupation by any stretch of the imagination, the vast majority of prostitutes sell sex willingly, without any coercion.

The Swedish example is not one we should follow. It is a law based on a certain moral viewpoint. It is difficult to gauge the true success of the law given that prostitution has now been driven underground. It is also interesting that criminalisation supporters ignore examples of where legal prostitution has been a success, such as in NZ. It is widely supported by the prostitutes themselves. More info here.

In short, I apply the same logic with prostitution as I do with any vice activity- be it drinking, drug taking, gambling or whatever. If you are opposed to it simply do not partake in it. All these industries would be better off controlled and regulated rather than left in the grateful and grubby hands of criminal gangs. While I am sure that criminalisation supporters really are concerned about trafficking, I also believe many of them simply have moral objections to prostitution and see the trafficking angle as the best one with which to attack it from.

In short- legal and regulated is by far the best solution.

Mark Hamill

paddyandy wrote: »

everything else very popular with the Masses is fifth rate and i took a very different route than most people because i recognised that fact

So basically you are against legalising prostitution because you are a hipster? Legalising prostitution is too mainstream for you?

Daveysil15

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

would different laws change that. What country has the best laws in regard of this?

It's a difficult question to answer. What works for one country won't necessarily work for another. It was legalised and regulated in Holland and it ended up creating more problems. The Swedish model is also flawed and I suspect some of the evidence was frabricated to further the agenda. Ruhama is completely biased about prostitution and has only focused on the victims. I don't think they've ever actually interviewed any women who have chosen this profession.

The problem with legalising it, is that the prostitutes would have to reigister and pay taxes, and as a result would lose their anonymity. I think most prostitutes in Ireland would rather work in their apartments or houses, rather than they way they do it in Amsterdam where the women have to stand in front of a window all day been stared at by tourists.

Procrastastudy

Okay I admit I haven't read all the posts but it does seem to have been missed by all, but one poster, that prostitution in Ireland is not illegal.

The law as it stands at the moment works in theory. Independent women and men working out of an apartment / house. What is needed is better enforcement against people being trafficked. Regulation would help that issue but I'm not sure it would make a big enough dent to change the status quo. Much better left to some sort of NGO probably.

All you really need do is book an appointment though the website most punters would use anyway and interview the girl at that site. If there's more than one then its brothel and it's illegal and it should be shut down. The Gardai could do this now if they thought it was a big enough issue.

We should not go down the route of Germany and have a super-brothel on Parnell Street. This is not the kind of thing that should be allowed. I'm afraid this, in my opinion, that is best left, in some degree, as a grey area.

It doesn't matter what you do ref legalising/decriminalising or regulating prostitution you'll still end up with people being exploited and children being abused.

The Corinthian

So 'freelance' prostitution is not illegal, but brothels are? Or is that pimping that is? I take it we're still working off seventeenth century English common law on this one?

Procrastastudy

Nothing wrong with old law - most of its old because it hasn't needed to be changed.

As for the actual law I haven't a clue not done criminal yet. If its the same position as in England (as distinct from Scotland that has very relaxed laws in regard to prostitution) then anymore than one girl working at a time is a brothel and illegal. I would assume pimping is illegal also.

Its a bit of a pet subject from before actually being able to quote the relevant statutes. I should really find out where it is!

Procrastastudy

Just when I was pontificating on the foresight of people like Lord Denning I find the legislation is form the 90's and even the 1990's at that

Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993

Daveysil15

The Corinthian wrote: »

So 'freelance' prostitution is not illegal, but brothels are? Or is that pimping that is? I take it we're still working off seventeenth century English common law on this one?

Prostitution in general is not illegal in Ireland, assuming there's no more than one person selling sex in a single building. It's not as safe for one woman to work on her own obviously. There were two women arrested in Limerick for brothel keeping. If it had of just been one girl on her own then it wouldn't have been a brothel and she wouldn't have been arrested, which is a bit stupid I think.

Procrastastudy

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Prostitution in general is not illegal in Ireland, assuming there's no more than one person selling sex in a single building. It's not as safe for one woman to work on her own obviously. There were two women arrested in Limerick for brothel keeping. If it had of just been one girl on her own then it wouldn't have been a brothel and she wouldn't have been arrested, which is a bit stupid I think.

Actually I couldn't agree more ref this part. Should be limited to the number of bedrooms but for simple safety reasons this makes sense. And of course the need for more than one girl for certain services.

Finnbar01

The Corinthian wrote: »

So 'freelance' prostitution is not illegal, but brothels are? Or is that pimping that is? I take it we're still working off seventeenth century English common law on this one?

Prostitution is not illegal in Ireland.

Owning and running a brothel is illegal. Pimping and soliciting in a public place are also illegal.

''There's nothing wrong with a fella and a lady having sex for money, they're consenting adults and if they want to pay for it they pay for it," Det Super McKeon said. And it's not an offence to visit a brothel. "You can ask him (a client) his name and address - it is an offence not to give it - but it's a funny bit of legislation because if he refuses or gives a false address there's nothing you can do about it."

"A lot of the apartments, particularly around the city centre, are used as brothels," Det Supt McKeon said.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/red-lights-big-city-just-four-families-run-vice-ring-in-capital-111389.html

Daveysil15

There is a stigma associated with paying for sex, but what most people don’t take into consideration, is that there’s also a stigma associated with going out and looking for sex through the conventional routes. I’ve often heard women complain about been approached by guys in clubs who are only after one thing. “Ohh there’s so many creeps that are only looking for a shag.”

A lot of people seem to have this mentality irrespective of what a man’s intentions may be. Sometimes a guy might approach a girl in a club and wants nothing more than a simple chat. Women in these situations can be very defensive and start to question his motives.

However if the guy is good looking and the woman is interested, then its not an issue. Suppose a single woman walks into a club. A good looking guy approaches her. He’s only looking for sex. Maybe she wants the same, maybe not. If she’s interested in him she will at least reciprocate the chat. They might hit it off and end up having a one night stand. That’s fine.

What if an ugly man approaches her though? Or someone she’s not attracted to? He might have the same intentions as the good looking guy, but because she’s not interested, he’s just another creep looking for a shag. So why should an unattractive guy, or a fat guy, or a guy with Aspergers put up with so much contempt for wanting casual sex, when they could just make a simple phone call to an escort?

iptba

I hope some people in this thread are making submissions for the consultation on prostitution.

Anonymous submissions can be made.

Unfortunately there is a little less than 48 hours to do it (deadline is Friday, 5pm) but even a half page submission could be useful - see: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80471206&postcount=91 .

iptba

I've just finished a draft submission earlier tonight (and re-read it for typos, etc.). Would anybody be willing to have a look over it and get back to me with any comments/suggestions including on typos (you don't have to be thorough if you don't want to be)? It's just over 3000 words. I haven't used big words so probably not that hard to read. Thanks.

It just concentrates about complaining about the Swedish model. It is not written from a legal or constitutional perspective except that it quotes Article 40.1:

"All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law"

and talks about how some people want lighter sentences for women (e.g. Baroness Corston and the all-women meeting of Oireachtas members is mentioned). Quite a lot of it is about complaining that the approach is unfair to men. If you think you'd disagree with this approach [of mine], probably no need to look. One other person elsewhere has volunteered but they're doing their own submission so not sure if they will get to look at mine.

I don't want to take anybody away from doing a submission themselves. But I imagine not everyone will, even if one can do it anonymously.

---

I reckon that the percentages of submissions that are made won't look anything like the figures in the poll: I imagine that those pushing for the Swedish Model will make up the majority of written and oral submissions.

Rynox45

It should be legalised so it can be regulated and taxed. I find it unsavoury but that doesn't mean it should be shoved into a corner and left to fester. Get it out in the open and at least allow it to function safely.

iptba

For anyone interested in prostitution, the "Discussion Document on Future Direction of Prostitution Legislation" http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Discussion%20Document%20on%20Future%20Direction%20of%20Prostitution%20Legislation.pdf/Files/Discussion%20Document%20on%20Future%20Direction%20of%20Prostitution%20Legislation.pdf
is quite an interesting read.

It lists the situation around the world and seems reasonably balanced in terms of giving the pros and cons of various approaches, as well as briefly listing what has happened in countries. If people spotted problems, please throw them out as it was the first serious document I ever read on the topic (I think).

It also explains the legal situation in Ireland now. It doesn't take that long to read.

However, if you're hoping to make a submission, probably best to simply send in your points before reading it, as there is only a little over a day and a half to get your comments in.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

I've just finished a draft submission earlier tonight (and re-read it for typos, etc.). Would anybody be willing to have a look over it and get back to me with any comments/suggestions including on typos (you don't have to be thorough if you don't want to be)? It's just over 3000 words. I haven't used big words so probably not that hard to read. Thanks.

It just concentrates about complaining about the Swedish model. Quite a lot of it is about complaining that the approach is unfair to men. If you think you'd disagree with this approach [of mine], probably no need to look. One other person elsewhere has volunteered but they're doing their own submission so not sure if they will get to look at mine.

I don't want to take anybody away from doing a submission themselves. But I imagine not everyone will, even if one can do it anonymously.

---

I reckon that the percentages of submissions that are made won't look anything like the figures in the poll: I imagine that those pushing for the Swedish Model will make up the majority of written and oral submissions.

Ok, sent mine in. I had only got one person who offered to look at it [my draft] but they didn't get to read it in the end because a deadline came up.

E-mail address is: justiceanddefence@oir.ie. Even a few lines would add more voices to the debate.
Best to explicitly say you want to be anonymous if that's what you want.

ETA: If there is any place to post submissions, I'd like to know about it so I could post my submission. As I recall, they don't have to post all submissons/make them all public; I've a feeling they might not make mine public. Also, it'd be good to have arguments out there soon so they can be discussed and perhaps others may use e.g. in oral testimony, some of the points made in written testimony.

T runner

I think that the Swedish example shows that demand is greatly affected by its criminalisation. Many of the men who use prostitutes seem to have little appetite for it when the consequences include a criminal conviction.

Lowering the demand for prostitution will have a corrsponding affect on the scale of the industry.

Apart from ad hominem attacks on one organisation pushing for it: the nay sayers cant muster any evidence to show that illegalising demand would be anything but a very positive development.

nozzferrahhtoo

Does that not kind of beg the question a little. You are automatically assuming that prostitution is a good thing, therefore the reduction of it is desirable and anything that does so.... such as making it illegal.... is therefore also desirable.

The first thing to do when answering the question of whether to make it illegal or legal should be to determine if there is anything actually wrong with the practice. I think you leap too readily to assuming the answer to that is "yes" and that therefore making it illegal is de facto a good thing.

I see nothing "positive" in a development that makes something illegal that there is no good arguments for making illegal. Prostitution is not the problem. Slavery and human trafficing is. I do not see any reason to indict the former with the crimes of the latter.

iptba

One person posted their submission to the recent consultation at: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80656423&postcount=98.

There may be other submissions around the net?

T runner

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Does that not kind of beg the question a little. You are automatically assuming that prostitution is a good thing, therefore the reduction of it is desirable and anything that does so.... such as making it illegal.... is therefore also desirable.

The first thing to do when answering the question of whether to make it illegal or legal should be to determine if there is anything actually wrong with the practice. I think you leap too readily to assuming the answer to that is "yes" and that therefore making it illegal is de facto a good thing.

I see nothing "positive" in a development that makes something illegal that there is no good arguments for making illegal. Prostitution is not the problem. Slavery and human trafficing is. I do not see any reason to indict the former with the crimes of the latter.

I assume nothing. There have been many scholarly articles and verified studies illlumimating the physical and psychological damage and degradation that prostitution inflicts on women. Its not "Pretty woman" you know.

Yes, put simply prostitution is indeed a very bad thing and a reduction in the market for it will most definately be a very good thing. Looks like the legislation needed will indeed be forthcoming. Counselling for women getting out of prostitution will have to be a priority for women as demand lowers.

iptba

T runner wrote: »

There have been many scholarly articles and verified studies illlumimating the physical and psychological damage and degradation that prostitution inflicts on women.

What about all the other dangerous jobs in society? They're not being banned. Why only care about this job?

GarIT

T runner wrote: »

I assume nothing. There have been many scholarly articles and verified studies illlumimating the physical and psychological damage and degradation that prostitution inflicts on women. Its not "Pretty woman" you know.

Yes, put simply prostitution is indeed a very bad thing and a reduction in the market for it will most definately be a very good thing. Looks like the legislation needed will indeed be forthcoming. Counselling for women getting out of prostitution will have to be a priority for women as demand lowers.

Do you have any to show? From what I have read in the past things like that have been very opinionated and biased in favour of religion.

The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

I assume nothing. There have been many scholarly articles and verified studies illlumimating the physical and psychological damage and degradation that prostitution inflicts on women.

Actually, from what I have read, the vast bulk of studies are published or sponsored by lobby groups - both religious and Feminist - and there's very little that is scholarly or verified about them. The few balanced studies out there (and one was posted to either this or another thread) tend to be more neutral, coming out either as a weak pro or against on the subject.

I'd be curious to see some of these scholarly articles and verified studies, BTW. Not to mention data supporting the decrease of prostitution linked to its criminalization.

Its not "Pretty woman" you know.

No it's not, but let's be honest; not everyone grows up to become an astronaut.

Yes, put simply prostitution is indeed a very bad thing and a reduction in the market for it will most definately be a very good thing. Looks like the legislation needed will indeed be forthcoming. Counselling for women getting out of prostitution will have to be a priority for women as demand lowers.

Given that about 92% of work related deaths are male, I do have to ask why we seem intent in only tackling and assisting women in their occupations?

T runner

iptba wrote: »

One person posted their submission to the recent consultation at: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80656423&postcount=98.

There may be other submissions around the net?

Thanks, Ill be posting for legislation to criminalise the payment for sex in this country. The well proven damage and degradation it inflicts on the usually vulnerable person prostituting means that the men (overwhelmingly) who pay for it should be targetted.

They are the ones who have a choice and they are the ones who choose to buy a woman/girl who may be in a very vulnerable situation. The tradition of targetting poor and vulnerable people in Ireland as easy targets for secret sex and sexual violence needs to be eradicated. A very positive step is this legislation.

GarIT

T runner wrote: »

They are the ones who have a choice and they are the ones who choose to buy a woman/girl who may be in a very vulnerable situation. The tradition of targetting poor and vulnerable people in Ireland as easy targets for secret sex and sexual violence needs to be eradicated. A very positive step is this legislation.

Who ever mentioned buying a person? One would be paying for a service much like a massage.

Is there any link between sexual violence and prostitution? Rapists are rapists, they aren't going to decide they won't rape because they can't rape a prostitute.

iptba

T runner wrote: »

They are the ones who have a choice

So no prostitutes have a choice? Not sure about that.

T runner

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually, from what I have read, the vast bulk of studies are published or sponsored by lobby groups - both religious and Feminist - and there's very little that is scholarly or verified about them. The few balanced studies out there (and one was posted to either this or another thread) tend to be more neutral, coming out either as a weak pro or against on the subject.

Swedish government authorities for one have done extensive work on the effects of prostitution and of the downward trend in demand after implimentation of legislation.

The VHI has also reports on the physical condition of prostitutes that they ahve examined. Neither of these are pressure groups.

I'd be curious to see some of these scholarly articles and verified studies, BTW. Not to mention data supporting the decrease of prostitution linked to its criminalization.

Ofcourse you would. And id be more curious to see any articles saying that prostitution has anything but a severe affect on the phsical and mental health of prostitutes. Most importantly, The people who will be making the legislation will have access ton plenty of bona fida data. Your curiosity is not a priority for me.

No it's not, but let's be honest; not everyone grows up to become an astronaut.

People who grow up to be prostitutes can look forward to degradation and physical and mental ill health.

Given that about 92% of work related deaths are male, I do have to ask why we seem intent in only tackling and assisting women in their occupations?

Whatabouterry.

T runner

iptba wrote: »

So no prostitutes have a choice? Not sure about that.

Most prostitutes would come from poor or very vulnerable backrounds. Mental health, addiction, abuse victims, extreme poverty. These are the girls and women that many of our Irish heros are buying. Who really has the choice here? I would say the hero who knows at some level the vulnerability of the person whose body he has bought: but cares only for himself. The hero who very often forces the kind of violent sex on this woman that he is afraid to or cant at home.

His need is such that the threat of conviction means he would cease using prostitutes out of fear or embarrasment. Yep, that guy is the one with the choice. Arrest that scumbag.

iptba

T runner wrote: »

Most prostitutes would come from poor or very vulnerable backrounds. Mental health, addiction, abuse victims, extreme poverty.

Sounds like a lot of the people/men in prisons.

The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

Swedish government authorities for one have done extensive work on the effects of prostitution and of the downward trend in demand after implimentation of legislation.

The VHI has also reports on the physical condition of prostitutes that they ahve examined. Neither of these are pressure groups.

So you say. Can we see these for ourselves or would you like us to simply take your word for it?

Ofcourse you would. And id be more curious to see any articles saying that prostitution has anything but a severe affect on the phsical and mental health of prostitutes.

There are plenty of jobs out there that are less than ideal - psychologically or physically. Should we outlaw them all?

Most importantly, The people who will be making the legislation will have access ton plenty of bona fida data. Your curiosity is not a priority for me.

Actually, I'm challenging your claim that it is bona fida data. From what I can see, the vast majority is propaganda which, if traced, tends to find either a religious or Feminist sponsor.

So, with respects, and given your continued avoidance of actually supplying any credible evidence to support your apparently 'proven' claims, I'm going to conclude you have none. Now you may not consider my 'curiosity' a priority for you, but this is a dialogue on the subject. So either you can engage in that spirit or, if not, you might be better off to just step off your soapbox.

Whatabouterry.

You're the very one who has raised the claim that prostitution results in "degradation and physical and mental ill health", so perhaps we should put more resources in demographics that are more likely to suffer from such occupational hazards - like men.

Or is it only worth our attention when it is a woman's "physical and mental ill health" is at risk?

That would be your 'whatabouterry'.