UFC on FX 4: Maynard v Guida **Spoilers** Broadcast info in post #1

preddy

Only picking on other peoples posts and not posting your own on the subject "takes the biscuit"

MrStuffins

Everytime this topic comes up I post the same thing. I know maybe you don't know that because threads are self contained and I am just another poster so how would you remember?

But i'm not posting it again. The jist of it is, Jackson's camp contains some of the most exciting fighters in the world. And those who think Jackson is ruining MMA generally have no idea of Jackson's camp, Jackson's fighters and the difference between an MMA match containing 2 fighters with game-plans and a traveller boxing match!

But haters gonna hate!

preddy

I'd just rather see/pay to see a Korean Zombie/any Diaz brother/ JDS / wanderlei / Garcia / Griffin / many more..... fight to finish and win
then the way "Some" of Jacksons biggest names are going.

But back to how this started Guida stuck to the stick and move gameplan too long and deserved to loose.

Plastikman_eire

MrStuffins wrote: »

Jackson's fighters and the difference between an MMA match containing 2 fighters with game-plans and a traveller boxing match!

But haters gonna hate!

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

Shazbot

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

Not this again. I can deny it and infact, I laugh at it. Maybe this deserves a thread of it's own. Let's take a look at some of the most prominent fighters from Jackson/Winklejohns MMA. Let's say, the ones in the UFC now.

GSP - Finished 13 out of 22 wins = 59% (of wins that were finished)
John Jones - 13 out of 16 = 81%
Carlos Condit - 26 out of 28 = 92%
Clay Guida - 20 out of 29 = 68%
Jason MacDonald - 21 out of 25 = 84%
Shane Carwin - 12 out of 12 = 100%
Brian Stann - 10 out of 12 = 83%
Diego Sanchez - 15 out of 23 = 65%
Diego Brandao - 12 out of 14 = 85%
Donald Cerone - 14 out of 18 = 77%
John Dodson - 7 out of 13 = 53%

All info was gathered from wikipedia and doesn't discriminate between UFC and non UFC wins. But it clearly highlights the fact that the prominent fighters from Jacksons camp are finishers. Some of the key examples for the "Jackson's ruining MMA" argument are Condit vs Diaz, Cerrone vs Diaz and Guida vs Maynard. These fights have all been tough fights, one for a title, one for title contention and the last to put them into the title picture of a stacked division. So 3 fights out of dozens that can be considered boring and people are screaming "safety first".

Bullsh!t.

MrStuffins

preddy wrote: »

I'd just rather see/pay to see a Korean Zombie/any Diaz brother/ JDS / wanderlei / Garcia / Griffin / many more..... fight to finish and win
then the way "Some" of Jacksons biggest names are going.

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

What exactly do you mean by "safety first"?

I can't believe I have to postthis again but here we go!

As I said, some fighters go out there with a game plan. the poster above has just proven my point. They hear Dana White spout rubbish about Jackson and regurgitate it on a message board. At the same time using a Jackson MMA fighter as an example of an exciting fighter :rolleyes:

Jon Jones
Leonard Garcia
Joey Villasenor
Diego Brandao
Diego Sanchez
John Dodson
Sexiyama
Shane Carwin
Cowboy Cerrone
Brian Stann
Jason McDonald
Joe Daddy............................................................................

How many of these fighters exactly are "boring"? How many of these guys go out there and think "Safety first"?


Edit: Shazbot got there before me! Nice one!

The Bored One

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

Actually, could you give a further explanation or definition of this?
There's a couple of possible meanings and I'd like to have it a bit clearer in order to discuss it properly.

preddy

MrStuffins wrote: »

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!

Yep correct Garcia, but even he looked alittle restrained against Grice.

And Yes "some" as the longer he spends with a fighter and the higher the stakes of the fights the safer the strategy.

Nothing wrong with getting the win for the fighter, bad for the fans and if the fighter then looses like Guida you get these negitive comments.

MrStuffins

Yep correct Garcia, but even he looked alittle restrained against Grice.

Gotta say, your logic here is showing you up.

And Yes "some" as the longer he spends with a fighter and the higher the stakes of the fights the safer the strategy.

I'm sorry, can you please link to some data showing how long Jackson spends with each fighter? And perhaps how that effects their tendency to be safe? Unless you're just pulling the above from your arse?

Nothing wrong with getting the win for the fighter, bad for the fans and if the fighter then looses like Guida you get these negitive comments.

Yeah, I've noticed.

I also noticed you chose to ignore mine and Shazbot's points were we pointed out the majority of team Jackson and how they aren't boring and just kept trudging forward.

Funny that!

Professey Chin

Shazbot wrote: »

Not this again. I can deny it and infact, I laugh at it. Maybe this deserves a thread of it's own. Let's take a look at some of the most prominent fighters from Jackson/Winklejohns MMA. Let's say, the ones in the UFC now.

GSP - Finished 13 out of 22 wins = 59% (of wins that were finished)
John Jones - 13 out of 16 = 81%
Carlos Condit - 26 out of 28 = 92%
Clay Guida - 20 out of 29 = 68%
Jason MacDonald - 21 out of 25 = 84%
Shane Carwin - 12 out of 12 = 100%
Brian Stann - 10 out of 12 = 83%
Diego Sanchez - 15 out of 23 = 65%
Diego Brandao - 12 out of 14 = 85%
Donald Cerone - 14 out of 18 = 77%
John Dodson - 7 out of 13 = 53%

All info was gathered from wikipedia and doesn't discriminate between UFC and non UFC wins. But it clearly highlights the fact that the prominent fighters from Jacksons camp are finishers. Some of the key examples for the "Jackson's ruining MMA" argument are Condit vs Diaz, Cerrone vs Diaz and Guida vs Maynard. These fights have all been tough fights, one for a title, one for title contention and the last to put them into the title picture of a stacked division. So 3 fights out of dozens that can be considered boring and people are screaming "safety first".

Bullsh!t.

I don't really agree about all his fighters only playing for decisions (such as Condit, Cerrone, Stann, Garcia) but those percentages mean nothing since most of them havent spent their career at Jacksons.
Youd need to compare their finishing record from before and after they started training there but that has its own set of problems since theyre usually fighting a higher level of opponent if theyre at the standard of being there. Not to mention the difficuloty of pinpointing when they started there

Shazbot

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

I don't really agree about all his fighters only playing for decisions (such as Condit, Cerrone, Stann, Garcia) but those percentages mean nothing since most of them havent spent their career at Jacksons.
Youd need to compare their finishing record from before and after they started training there but that has its own set of problems since theyre usually fighting a higher level of opponent if theyre at the standard of being there. Not to mention the difficuloty of pinpointing when they started there

That's very true but it's difficult to know when they started training with Jacksons and some fighters have other camps. I would also need to take into account the losses by decision and then go fight by fight to highlight time spend "points fighting".

Like any data it can be scrutinized and it clearly has holes but it's a lot more than the moaners are giving. I'm not going to waste my time going through all that. After all, if you're going to make an outlandish claim about points fighting, safety first and Jackson's ruining MMA, then the burden of proof is on those individuals.

MrStuffins

Well there's an easy way, just decide whether or not you think each of the fighters goes out there "safety first" now..... you're talking about guys like Dodson, Cerrone, Sanchez.

As i said already, someone spurtting "Jackson is ruining MMA" is someone whose opinion should be ignored. It is obvious that they have heard someone else say this and, instead of coming to an informed conclusion themselves, have passed someone elses opinion off as their own.

OR they have full knowledge of Jackson MMA and still think hes ruining MMA.

Either way, they're not someone whose opinion should be taken on board IMO

Professey Chin

I dont see it as that, I see it that he's good at getting his fighters to play to their strengths and away from their opponents in specific fights.
The result of this is he has fighters that are better wrestlers then they are strikers but none of them are submission experts on the ground (or better then their opponent at submissions).
This is exactly whats happened with Guida. He has a chin like iron, great heart and stamina but he's simply not that good a striker compared to the higher levels of the division so his old style gets him nowhere in win terms. With the Maynard fight he was up against a better striker and wrestler with heavy hands. That takes out striking and takedowns which left him with nothing but quick jabbing and bouncing.
All of Jacksons fighters try to stay away from their opponents strengths. Unfortunately when an opponents better then you at your usual gameplan, your second strength isnt always enough to finish and you can end up with a terrible fight.
/end ramble

weemcd

I never want to watch another Guida fight in my life if that is the standard, the entire time I just wanted Maynard to put an end to it an KO him to fúck. I was expecting a decent scrap, I would be embarrassed if I was D.W.

Plastikman_eire

MrStuffins wrote: »

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!



What exactly do you mean by "safety first"?

I can't believe I have to postthis again but here we go!

As I said, some fighters go out there with a game plan. the poster above has just proven my point. They hear Dana White spout rubbish about Jackson and regurgitate it on a message board. At the same time using a Jackson MMA fighter as an example of an exciting fighter :rolleyes:

Jon Jones
Leonard Garcia
Joey Villasenor
Diego Brandao
Diego Sanchez
John Dodson
Sexiyama
Shane Carwin
Cowboy Cerrone
Brian Stann
Jason McDonald
Joe Daddy............................................................................

How many of these fighters exactly are "boring"? How many of these guys go out there and think "Safety first"?


Edit: Shazbot got there before me! Nice one!

While I dont really have the commitment to the point to bother trawling through fight stats, GSP is the example that springs to mind, his finish rate has dropped significantly since joining jacksons.

Then the Guida maynard fight, condit diaz etc just kind of reenforce that idea in my mind. If the stat's say im wrong, meh I can live with that lol.

Edit* Stuffins you do make some very valid and, mostly, well informed points, but could you present them in a more dick like fashion? Im not sure:(

Plastikman_eire

The Bored One wrote: »

Actually, could you give a further explanation or definition of this?
There's a couple of possible meanings and I'd like to have it a bit clearer in order to discuss it properly.

I feel that jackson coaches his fighters to avoid taking risks to finish their opponents.

(I am not saying it's not smart btw)

Ush1

Carwin trained at Jacksons??

Never heard anything about that, even that citation on wikipedia doesn't mention it. From what I know he has always trained at Grudge.

paddythere

just looked at his wikipedia.are u blind? it says he fights out of greg jacksons gym

MrStuffins

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

MrStuffins wrote: »

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!



What exactly do you mean by "safety first"?

I can't believe I have to postthis again but here we go!

As I said, some fighters go out there with a game plan. the poster above has just proven my point. They hear Dana White spout rubbish about Jackson and regurgitate it on a message board. At the same time using a Jackson MMA fighter as an example of an exciting fighter :rolleyes:

Jon Jones
Leonard Garcia
Joey Villasenor
Diego Brandao
Diego Sanchez
John Dodson
Sexiyama
Shane Carwin
Cowboy Cerrone
Brian Stann
Jason McDonald
Joe Daddy............................................................................

How many of these fighters exactly are "boring"? How many of these guys go out there and think "Safety first"?


Edit: Shazbot got there before me! Nice one!

While I dont really have the commitment to the point to bother trawling through fight stats, GSP is the example that springs to mind, his finish rate has dropped significantly since joining jacksons.

Then the Guida maynard fight, condit diaz etc just kind of reenforce that idea in my mind. If the stat's say im wrong, meh I can live with that lol.

Edit* Stuffins you do make some very valid and, mostly, well informed points, but could you present them in a more dick like fashion? Im not sure:(

You don't think the finish rate might have to do with the fact that hes the World Title holder and has been fighting a significantly higher level of opponent?

And your examples kinda prove my point. Those with the "Jackson is ruining MMA" attitude put no thought behind it whatsoever! They scream "But GSP is boring and Condit ran all night" and that's it.

Also, theres no need for name calling.

darced

This post has been deleted.

MrStuffins

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I guess you'd have to ask them. Off hand I can't remember each fight to a tee. But was each Head Kick the kind which had their opponents dazed or out of it?

IMO though, Jones never fights for points. He dominated Evans to a decision, before that he had 8 straight finishes against the top guys in the world.

GSP dominates everyone he fights. I can't even remember the last guy to give him a run for his money. His style might not be the Anderson style but he uses his strengths, he'd be an idiot not to.

Condit had an effective game plan v Diaz. And it worked. He wasn't gonna win a boxing match or a BJJ match, so he used Stick & Move. He won the fight.

As for Guida, it wasn't pretty by any means. Also, its very possible the plan was to win a decision.

Does that mean Jackson is ruining MMA? No!

darced

This post has been deleted.

Mellor

Shazbot wrote: »

Not this again. I can deny it and infact, I laugh at it. Maybe this deserves a thread of it's own. Let's take a look at some of the most prominent fighters from Jackson/Winklejohns MMA. Let's say, the ones in the UFC now.

GSP - Finished 13 out of 22 wins = 59% (of wins that were finished)
John Jones - 13 out of 16 = 81%
Carlos Condit - 26 out of 28 = 92%
Clay Guida - 20 out of 29 = 68%
Jason MacDonald - 21 out of 25 = 84%
Shane Carwin - 12 out of 12 = 100%
Brian Stann - 10 out of 12 = 83%
Diego Sanchez - 15 out of 23 = 65%
Diego Brandao - 12 out of 14 = 85%
Donald Cerone - 14 out of 18 = 77%
John Dodson - 7 out of 13 = 53%

All info was gathered from wikipedia and doesn't discriminate between UFC and non UFC wins. But it clearly highlights the fact that the prominent fighters from Jacksons camp are finishers.

I hate the Jackson is ruining argument as much as the next guy. But the stats above are flawed. It's does distinguish fighters before and after joining jacksons. which may or may not affect finish rates. I'm point this out now so that somebody doesn't twist it to suit their purposes. (Edit: I see they already have. lol didn't notice there was a second page - the rest is still relevant though)

The reason a fighters finish often drop is if you finish somebody, finish them convincingly. You fight a tougher person. that keeps happening until you lose, where you stay about the same level, or you become champ, where you fight the next best in the division constantly.

Shazbot

Mellor wrote: »

I hate the Jackson is ruining argument as much as the next guy. But the stats above are flawed. It's does distinguish fighters before and after joining jacksons. which may or may not affect finish rates. I'm point this out now so that somebody doesn't twist it to suit their purposes. (Edit: I see they already have. lol didn't notice there was a second page - the rest is still relevant though)

The reason a fighters finish often drop is if you finish somebody, finish them convincingly. You fight a tougher person. that keeps happening until you lose, where you stay about the same level, or you become champ, where you fight the next best in the division constantly.

You're spot on. As I pointed out myself here, the stats are very basic and don't carry much weight without breaking down the time spent with Jackson and time spent "points fighting/ruining MMA".

If one really wanted to highlight the detrimental effects of Jackson on MMA they should go through each individual high level fighter. They should separate finishing rates pre and post Jackson. They could go one step further and go through a second-by-second account of the time spent actively trying to finish compared to actively points fighting. Then one must account for the caliber of opponent and weight that appropriately and take that into consideration but how would you go about that?

As with any claim, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. People will scream and shout "Jackson's ruining MMA" or "playing safe for a decision" but will rarely go into a detailed response besides the usual Carlos "the natural born runner" or GSP.

What I offered was a very basic response with many glaring holes (so much that I'm almost ashamed I did it) but it's still significantly more than the nay-sayers will do.

Ush1

paddythere wrote: »

just looked at his wikipedia.are u blind? it says he fights out of greg jacksons gym

No I'm not. I see it says that but where is the citation that backs it up? Anything can be written on wikipedia.

Professey Chin

Ush1 wrote: »

No I'm not. I see it says that but where is the citation that backs it up? Anything can be written on wikipedia.

Im not sure if he actually is full time in Jacksons gym but he has been cornered by him