UFC on FX 4: Maynard v Guida **Spoilers** Broadcast info in post #1

El Guapo!

Main Card:

Gray Maynard vs. Clay Guida
Sam Stout vs. Spencer Fisher
Brian Ebersole vs. T.J. Waldburger
Ross Pearson vs. Cub Swanson

Preliminary Card:

Hatsu Hioki vs. Ricardo Lamas
Ramsey Nijem vs. C.J. Keith
Rick Story vs. Brock Jardine
Steven Siler vs. Joey Gambino
Nick Catone vs. Chris Camozzi
Matt Brown vs. Luis Ramos

Preliminary Card:

Dan Miller vs. Ricardo Funch
Ken Stone vs. Dustin Pague



**BROADCAST INFO:**

Main card is on ESPN at 2am
Prelims should be in the usual places Facebook & UFC.tv Starting from 11pm

El Guapo!

Should be some decent fights here tonight. (Much better than tomorrow nights card anyway on paper)
Maynard v Guida should be a war. I'd expect Guida to take it though.
Ebersole is always fun to watch. He's probably the only man I always look forward to seeing his chest hair! :pac:
And I'd say the Pearson v Swanson fight will be a good one too. Looking forward to this card.

manga_10

hatsus and maynard are the only 2 really worth watching on that card . Actually scratch that cub swansons fighting awesome

El Guapo!

Really good performance from Matt Brown there. Ramos has some chin though. Dunno how he stayed standing for so long.

Roar

ugh, that was a horrible looking cut on catone

El Guapo!

Roar wrote: »

ugh, that was a horrible looking cut on catone

Yeah it was leaking blood everywhere. That'll need a fair few stitches I'd say!
Pity it ended with a doctors stoppage though.

El Guapo!

Great win for Siler there. Very impressive.
It's certainly shaping up to be a blood-filled night!

El Guapo!

Cub Swanson keeps getting better with each fight. Nice ko there. Looking forward to seeing whats next for him.

El Guapo!

Kinda quiet round these parts tonight..............

PerrinV2

I'm a better listener....ebersole fight wasn't great I thought although I hadn't my full attention on it

PerrinV2

I hate when a crowd start booing

PerrinV2

Delighted Maynard won that after guida's performance

darced

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El Guapo!

Main event was really bad. Maynard was so frustrated and it's easy to see why. I don't like Guidas fighting style. There's more bouncing around than fighting.
Dana White wasn't too happy with it either judging by his twitter.

insanity50

disgraceful fight. guida is an embarrassment. hope he gets dumped back to the undercards for the rest of his career after that tripe. I've said it many a time, Greg Jackson is ruining MMA.

El Guapo!

insanity50 wrote: »

Greg Jackson is ruining MMA.

I hate that statement.

darced

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El Guapo!

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm sure he was advised by his coaches that the gameplan should be a lot of movement and implement a "stick and move" sort of fight. But I doubt the plan was to practically just bounce around the cage doing nothing else. I think Mirgliotta should've warned him sooner than he did.
I'd say the gamplan should've went more like Condit v Diaz, where Condit executed the plan to perfection. He managed to land crisp strikes and get out of the way before taking any damage. But he was constantly engaging. Guida had the movement down to a "T" but he seemed to have forgotten to fight.

adamski8

PerrinV2 wrote: »

I'm a better listener....ebersole fight wasn't great I thought although I hadn't my full attention on it

i thought it was good. great submission attempts and ebersole was great enduring/escaping them.

MrStuffins

insanity50 wrote: »

I've said it many a time, Greg Jackson is ruining MMA.

I actually like this statement because it shows to me which posters are ignorant and whose opinions should be ignored.

preddy

insanity50 wrote: »

I've said it many a time, Greg Jackson is ruining MMA.

I agree, J.Jones needs to get out of that gym.
Jackson doesn't seem to want his fighters to finish fights or get out of the safety of Jab and run.

The Bored One

preddy wrote: »

I agree, J.Jones needs to get out of that gym.
Jackson doesn't seem to want his fighters to finish fights or get out of the safety of Jab and run.

If you look at the records of the prominent fighters from Jacksons MMA, on average they've finished 2 of their last 3 fights they've won each. There are some who haven't, but the majority of the fighters have.

preddy

The Bored One wrote: »

If you look at the records of the prominent fighters from Jacksons MMA, on average they've finished 2 of their last 3 fights they've won each. There are some who haven't, but the majority of the fighters have.

Look at the fighters in his camp they are all top of course they will finish alot of there fights being the best at there weight but i just dont like his safety first and the way he is changing fighters.

Just look what he has done to Guida, and Cerone who was afraid to throw against Diaz.

The Bored One

preddy wrote: »

Look at the fighters in his camp they are all top of course they will finish alot of there fights being the best at there weight but i just dont like his safety first and the way he is changing fighters.

Just look what he has done to Guida, and Cerone who was afraid to throw against Diaz.

Personally I don't think Cerrones problem against Diaz was because of any plan or training of Jacksons. And I certainly don't think he was afraid to throw. He was just too worked up and angry to fight smart. He just kept trying to stand right in front of Diaz and trade strikes.

leggo

Yeah, Cerrone is a terrible example. Diaz had just wound him up badly in the pre-fight build-up, then picked him off on the night. And if you look at the fighters you're criticising from Jackson, they're some of the best in the world. Therefore, when they fight there's much higher stakes. So do you really blame them for fighting smart and racking up points instead of going for spectacular, fan friendly finishes? What would you do yourself in that situation?

That's every sport these days, like it or not: done by the numbers. The difference between winning and losing can be millions these days, so it's time to start appreciating the skill and strategy that goes into winning the high stakes battles. They're like chess matches.

preddy

leggo wrote: »

Yeah, Cerrone is a terrible example. Diaz had just wound him up badly in the pre-fight build-up, then picked him off on the night. And if you look at the fighters you're criticising from Jackson, they're some of the best in the world. Therefore, when they fight there's much higher stakes. So do you really blame them for fighting smart and racking up points instead of going for spectacular, fan friendly finishes? What would you do yourself in that situation?

That's every sport these days, like it or not: done by the numbers. The difference between winning and losing can be millions these days, so it's time to start appreciating the skill and strategy that goes into winning the high stakes battles. They're like chess matches.

Ok about Cerone but even Dana has issues with his Jackson coaching style.
Prob affects his non title holding fighters trying to move up to a shot rather than the ones holding the belts. Esp if they are loosing a fight they cant seem to cut loose.

Popularty has alot more to do with making the big $$$ in MMA.
Do you think someone like with 6 boring decisions in a row is what the fans want - and will pay PPV to see?

Anyway its only my opinion, I watch the fights to be entertained, I'd watch boxing to see Jabathons.

darced

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darced

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Clive

But the internets told me that Miletich ruined MMA years ago. Has it been fixed in the meantime?

preddy

Chael Sonnen fixed it.

MrStuffins

Using Donald Cerrone as an example of how Jackson fighters are boring and "safety first" really takes the biscuit!

NExt people will be complaining that Leonard Garcia is a lay & pray merchant!

preddy

Only picking on other peoples posts and not posting your own on the subject "takes the biscuit"

MrStuffins

Everytime this topic comes up I post the same thing. I know maybe you don't know that because threads are self contained and I am just another poster so how would you remember?

But i'm not posting it again. The jist of it is, Jackson's camp contains some of the most exciting fighters in the world. And those who think Jackson is ruining MMA generally have no idea of Jackson's camp, Jackson's fighters and the difference between an MMA match containing 2 fighters with game-plans and a traveller boxing match!

But haters gonna hate!

preddy

I'd just rather see/pay to see a Korean Zombie/any Diaz brother/ JDS / wanderlei / Garcia / Griffin / many more..... fight to finish and win
then the way "Some" of Jacksons biggest names are going.

But back to how this started Guida stuck to the stick and move gameplan too long and deserved to loose.

Plastikman_eire

MrStuffins wrote: »

Jackson's fighters and the difference between an MMA match containing 2 fighters with game-plans and a traveller boxing match!

But haters gonna hate!

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

Shazbot

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

Not this again. I can deny it and infact, I laugh at it. Maybe this deserves a thread of it's own. Let's take a look at some of the most prominent fighters from Jackson/Winklejohns MMA. Let's say, the ones in the UFC now.

GSP - Finished 13 out of 22 wins = 59% (of wins that were finished)
John Jones - 13 out of 16 = 81%
Carlos Condit - 26 out of 28 = 92%
Clay Guida - 20 out of 29 = 68%
Jason MacDonald - 21 out of 25 = 84%
Shane Carwin - 12 out of 12 = 100%
Brian Stann - 10 out of 12 = 83%
Diego Sanchez - 15 out of 23 = 65%
Diego Brandao - 12 out of 14 = 85%
Donald Cerone - 14 out of 18 = 77%
John Dodson - 7 out of 13 = 53%

All info was gathered from wikipedia and doesn't discriminate between UFC and non UFC wins. But it clearly highlights the fact that the prominent fighters from Jacksons camp are finishers. Some of the key examples for the "Jackson's ruining MMA" argument are Condit vs Diaz, Cerrone vs Diaz and Guida vs Maynard. These fights have all been tough fights, one for a title, one for title contention and the last to put them into the title picture of a stacked division. So 3 fights out of dozens that can be considered boring and people are screaming "safety first".

Bullsh!t.

MrStuffins

preddy wrote: »

I'd just rather see/pay to see a Korean Zombie/any Diaz brother/ JDS / wanderlei / Garcia / Griffin / many more..... fight to finish and win
then the way "Some" of Jacksons biggest names are going.

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

What exactly do you mean by "safety first"?

I can't believe I have to postthis again but here we go!

As I said, some fighters go out there with a game plan. the poster above has just proven my point. They hear Dana White spout rubbish about Jackson and regurgitate it on a message board. At the same time using a Jackson MMA fighter as an example of an exciting fighter :rolleyes:

Jon Jones
Leonard Garcia
Joey Villasenor
Diego Brandao
Diego Sanchez
John Dodson
Sexiyama
Shane Carwin
Cowboy Cerrone
Brian Stann
Jason McDonald
Joe Daddy............................................................................

How many of these fighters exactly are "boring"? How many of these guys go out there and think "Safety first"?


Edit: Shazbot got there before me! Nice one!

The Bored One

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

You cant deny that Jackson promotes a "safety first" approach to fighting.

Actually, could you give a further explanation or definition of this?
There's a couple of possible meanings and I'd like to have it a bit clearer in order to discuss it properly.

preddy

MrStuffins wrote: »

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!

Yep correct Garcia, but even he looked alittle restrained against Grice.

And Yes "some" as the longer he spends with a fighter and the higher the stakes of the fights the safer the strategy.

Nothing wrong with getting the win for the fighter, bad for the fans and if the fighter then looses like Guida you get these negitive comments.

MrStuffins

Yep correct Garcia, but even he looked alittle restrained against Grice.

Gotta say, your logic here is showing you up.

And Yes "some" as the longer he spends with a fighter and the higher the stakes of the fights the safer the strategy.

I'm sorry, can you please link to some data showing how long Jackson spends with each fighter? And perhaps how that effects their tendency to be safe? Unless you're just pulling the above from your arse?

Nothing wrong with getting the win for the fighter, bad for the fans and if the fighter then looses like Guida you get these negitive comments.

Yeah, I've noticed.

I also noticed you chose to ignore mine and Shazbot's points were we pointed out the majority of team Jackson and how they aren't boring and just kept trudging forward.

Funny that!

Professey Chin

Shazbot wrote: »

Not this again. I can deny it and infact, I laugh at it. Maybe this deserves a thread of it's own. Let's take a look at some of the most prominent fighters from Jackson/Winklejohns MMA. Let's say, the ones in the UFC now.

GSP - Finished 13 out of 22 wins = 59% (of wins that were finished)
John Jones - 13 out of 16 = 81%
Carlos Condit - 26 out of 28 = 92%
Clay Guida - 20 out of 29 = 68%
Jason MacDonald - 21 out of 25 = 84%
Shane Carwin - 12 out of 12 = 100%
Brian Stann - 10 out of 12 = 83%
Diego Sanchez - 15 out of 23 = 65%
Diego Brandao - 12 out of 14 = 85%
Donald Cerone - 14 out of 18 = 77%
John Dodson - 7 out of 13 = 53%

All info was gathered from wikipedia and doesn't discriminate between UFC and non UFC wins. But it clearly highlights the fact that the prominent fighters from Jacksons camp are finishers. Some of the key examples for the "Jackson's ruining MMA" argument are Condit vs Diaz, Cerrone vs Diaz and Guida vs Maynard. These fights have all been tough fights, one for a title, one for title contention and the last to put them into the title picture of a stacked division. So 3 fights out of dozens that can be considered boring and people are screaming "safety first".

Bullsh!t.

I don't really agree about all his fighters only playing for decisions (such as Condit, Cerrone, Stann, Garcia) but those percentages mean nothing since most of them havent spent their career at Jacksons.
Youd need to compare their finishing record from before and after they started training there but that has its own set of problems since theyre usually fighting a higher level of opponent if theyre at the standard of being there. Not to mention the difficuloty of pinpointing when they started there

Shazbot

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

I don't really agree about all his fighters only playing for decisions (such as Condit, Cerrone, Stann, Garcia) but those percentages mean nothing since most of them havent spent their career at Jacksons.
Youd need to compare their finishing record from before and after they started training there but that has its own set of problems since theyre usually fighting a higher level of opponent if theyre at the standard of being there. Not to mention the difficuloty of pinpointing when they started there

That's very true but it's difficult to know when they started training with Jacksons and some fighters have other camps. I would also need to take into account the losses by decision and then go fight by fight to highlight time spend "points fighting".

Like any data it can be scrutinized and it clearly has holes but it's a lot more than the moaners are giving. I'm not going to waste my time going through all that. After all, if you're going to make an outlandish claim about points fighting, safety first and Jackson's ruining MMA, then the burden of proof is on those individuals.

MrStuffins

Well there's an easy way, just decide whether or not you think each of the fighters goes out there "safety first" now..... you're talking about guys like Dodson, Cerrone, Sanchez.

As i said already, someone spurtting "Jackson is ruining MMA" is someone whose opinion should be ignored. It is obvious that they have heard someone else say this and, instead of coming to an informed conclusion themselves, have passed someone elses opinion off as their own.

OR they have full knowledge of Jackson MMA and still think hes ruining MMA.

Either way, they're not someone whose opinion should be taken on board IMO

Professey Chin

I dont see it as that, I see it that he's good at getting his fighters to play to their strengths and away from their opponents in specific fights.
The result of this is he has fighters that are better wrestlers then they are strikers but none of them are submission experts on the ground (or better then their opponent at submissions).
This is exactly whats happened with Guida. He has a chin like iron, great heart and stamina but he's simply not that good a striker compared to the higher levels of the division so his old style gets him nowhere in win terms. With the Maynard fight he was up against a better striker and wrestler with heavy hands. That takes out striking and takedowns which left him with nothing but quick jabbing and bouncing.
All of Jacksons fighters try to stay away from their opponents strengths. Unfortunately when an opponents better then you at your usual gameplan, your second strength isnt always enough to finish and you can end up with a terrible fight.
/end ramble

weemcd

I never want to watch another Guida fight in my life if that is the standard, the entire time I just wanted Maynard to put an end to it an KO him to fúck. I was expecting a decent scrap, I would be embarrassed if I was D.W.

Plastikman_eire

MrStuffins wrote: »

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!



What exactly do you mean by "safety first"?

I can't believe I have to postthis again but here we go!

As I said, some fighters go out there with a game plan. the poster above has just proven my point. They hear Dana White spout rubbish about Jackson and regurgitate it on a message board. At the same time using a Jackson MMA fighter as an example of an exciting fighter :rolleyes:

Jon Jones
Leonard Garcia
Joey Villasenor
Diego Brandao
Diego Sanchez
John Dodson
Sexiyama
Shane Carwin
Cowboy Cerrone
Brian Stann
Jason McDonald
Joe Daddy............................................................................

How many of these fighters exactly are "boring"? How many of these guys go out there and think "Safety first"?


Edit: Shazbot got there before me! Nice one!

While I dont really have the commitment to the point to bother trawling through fight stats, GSP is the example that springs to mind, his finish rate has dropped significantly since joining jacksons.

Then the Guida maynard fight, condit diaz etc just kind of reenforce that idea in my mind. If the stat's say im wrong, meh I can live with that lol.

Edit* Stuffins you do make some very valid and, mostly, well informed points, but could you present them in a more dick like fashion? Im not sure:(

Plastikman_eire

The Bored One wrote: »

Actually, could you give a further explanation or definition of this?
There's a couple of possible meanings and I'd like to have it a bit clearer in order to discuss it properly.

I feel that jackson coaches his fighters to avoid taking risks to finish their opponents.

(I am not saying it's not smart btw)

Ush1

Carwin trained at Jacksons??

Never heard anything about that, even that citation on wikipedia doesn't mention it. From what I know he has always trained at Grudge.

paddythere

just looked at his wikipedia.are u blind? it says he fights out of greg jacksons gym

MrStuffins

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

MrStuffins wrote: »

Garcia? Do you mean, Leonard Garcia? Jackson MMA's Leonard Garcia?

Ah, it's "some" now? If this is Greg Jackson ruining MMA, why aren't all of his fighters at it?

You're smashing your own argument here. Some? Lol!



What exactly do you mean by "safety first"?

I can't believe I have to postthis again but here we go!

As I said, some fighters go out there with a game plan. the poster above has just proven my point. They hear Dana White spout rubbish about Jackson and regurgitate it on a message board. At the same time using a Jackson MMA fighter as an example of an exciting fighter :rolleyes:

Jon Jones
Leonard Garcia
Joey Villasenor
Diego Brandao
Diego Sanchez
John Dodson
Sexiyama
Shane Carwin
Cowboy Cerrone
Brian Stann
Jason McDonald
Joe Daddy............................................................................

How many of these fighters exactly are "boring"? How many of these guys go out there and think "Safety first"?


Edit: Shazbot got there before me! Nice one!

While I dont really have the commitment to the point to bother trawling through fight stats, GSP is the example that springs to mind, his finish rate has dropped significantly since joining jacksons.

Then the Guida maynard fight, condit diaz etc just kind of reenforce that idea in my mind. If the stat's say im wrong, meh I can live with that lol.

Edit* Stuffins you do make some very valid and, mostly, well informed points, but could you present them in a more dick like fashion? Im not sure:(

You don't think the finish rate might have to do with the fact that hes the World Title holder and has been fighting a significantly higher level of opponent?

And your examples kinda prove my point. Those with the "Jackson is ruining MMA" attitude put no thought behind it whatsoever! They scream "But GSP is boring and Condit ran all night" and that's it.

Also, theres no need for name calling.

darced

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