The battle of the Bog

geneyuss

Macha wrote: »

It is a piece of legislation that we signed up to through our MEPs and through our Environment Minister. The idea that someone in Brussels is 'forcing' us into this law is incorrect. The government is simply being obliged to agree to something it signed up to years ago.

Both the Lisbon and Nice treatys were forced upon the Irish public, the majority of people didnt know what they were voting for, as most MEP's didnt, so i have to totally disagree with you,

Sponge Bob

geneyuss wrote: »

care to explain why you believe our government under the direction of a few leftie pen -pushers in Europe should be allowed to put hundreds of people out of work and not offer any compensation ?

I never thought contract cutters were entitled to anything, any more than silage cutters are entitled to weather related payments, that is different.

The state is not deliberately taking anything off contract cutters but they are off Bog Owners.

geneyuss

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I never thought contract cutters were entitled to anything, any more than silage cutters are entitled to weather related payments, that is different.

The state is not deliberately taking anything off contract cutters but they are off Bog Owners.

They hardly believed that every bank owner had a turf cutting machine? surely our brightest and best are not that gullible.

MadsL

geneyuss wrote: »

care to explain why you believe our government under the direction of a few leftie pen -pushers in Europe should be allowed to put hundreds of people out of work and not offer any compensation ?

Because

A. We voted for the "leftie pen -pushers", they are the ones who have provided massive amounts of farm subsidies and investment in Ireland since we joined the EU. Have a guess how many would be out of work if we left the EU. Care to pay back the grants?

B. Contract Turf cutters aren't 'hundreds' of people. I'd love to see your evidence that says hundreds of people will be out of work. How many Contract Turf-cutters do you know who cut turf full-time?

C. The Environmental impact of turf cutting on these bogs will mean that we will incur massive fines from Europe, are you seriously expecting every tax-payer to pick up a massive tab so that a few lads can cut turf?

D. The economy changes, I've been laid off before because of market conditions - and I didn't get ten years notice. Why did I get no 'compo'?

geneyuss wrote: »

nobody is stopping those people working, and to be truthful, your comparisons make it very clear you know nothing of this subject,

Nothing is stopping contract turf cutters from working. If the economy changes, why are they so special that their lifestyle must be supported by the taxpayer. If I know nothing, explain to me why these lads couldn't figure out that this activity was coming to an end and make alternative plans.

there was no ten year notice of any compensation packages, or was it ever made clear what was actually happening as is normal with successive Irish governments.

You seem to be confusing clarity and actually listening. Why would compensation be mentioned when it was clear that a 10 year notice period was in effect. The compensation was a extra cherry, not a requirement. You cannot tell me turfcutters thought this was unclear.

In 1999 Síle de Valera on announced on 3 February 1999 and introduced a permit system for cutting for a 10 year period and banned sausage machines.

The Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Síle de
Valera TD, and the Minister of State at her Department, Eamon Ó
Cuiv TD, following a series of consultations over the last year with
representatives of the farm organisations and turf cutters, today
announced the detailed arrangements for the cessation of turf cutting
on raised bogs which are proposed as Special Areas of Conservation
(SACs).

These arrangements are necessary to implement the E.U.
Habitats Directive, which requires the designation of such areas as
SACs, and their protection and conservation.
The Ministers are conscious of the social and economic impacts
immediate cessation would have on small communities and have
decided to make exceptional arrangements in the case of cutters for
domestic use. Cutters will accordingly be given a period of up to 10
years to make new arrangements.

Those who opt to continue cutting will be allowed to do so on the
basis of a permit from the department, which will specify the amount
of turf to be cut and the method of cutting to be used. Use of so called
'sausage machines' will not be permitted. Use of other sod turf
mechanical harvesting machines will generally be permitted.
People who have been cutting for their own personal domestic use
will be permitted to cut the amount of turf needed for their own use
only for up to 10 years in less sensitive areas of the bog.
These arrangements relate to Raised Bogs which have been
proposed as candidate SACs. They do not apply to Blanket Bogs. The
issues relating to turf cutting in Blanket Bogs are under constant
review.

i am at a loss as to where this E23000 is coming from, but im sure you have a link for that.

Simple maths - 15 years *€1500 a year and a €500 bonus. But what do I know about the subject eh? Linky

geneyuss wrote: »

the majority of people didnt know what they were voting for

Welcome to Democracy. If you don't like it, start your own party.

They hardly believed that every bank owner had a turf cutting machine? surely our brightest and best are not that gullible.

Perhaps it was all that spin put out by the TCCA about 'aul fellas footin' a bit o'turf" ??

geneyuss

MadsL wrote: »

Because

A. We voted for the "leftie pen -pushers", they are the ones who have provided massive amounts of farm subsidies and investment in Ireland since we joined the EU. Have a guess how many would be out of work if we left the EU. Care to pay back the grants?

B. Contract Turf cutters aren't 'hundreds' of people. I'd love to see your evidence that says hundreds of people will be out of work. How many Contract Turf-cutters do you know who cut turf full-time?

C. The Environmental impact of turf cutting on these bogs will mean that we will incur massive fines from Europe, are you seriously expecting every tax-payer to pick up a massive tab so that a few lads can cut turf?

D. The economy changes, I've been laid off before because of market conditions - and I didn't get ten years notice. Why did I get no 'compo'?



Nothing is stopping contract turf cutters from working. If the economy changes, why are they so special that their lifestyle must be supported by the taxpayer. If I know nothing, explain to me why these lads couldn't figure out that this activity was coming to an end and make alternative plans.



You seem to be confusing clarity and actually listening. Why would compensation be mentioned when it was clear that a 10 year notice period was in effect. The compensation was a extra cherry, not a requirement. You cannot tell me turfcutters thought this was unclear.

In 1999 Síle de Valera on announced on 3 February 1999 and introduced a permit system for cutting for a 10 year period and banned sausage machines.




Simple maths - 15 years *€1500 a year and a €500 bonus. But what do I know about the subject eh? Linky



Welcome to Democracy. If you don't like it, start your own party.



Perhaps it was all that spin put out by the TCCA about 'aul fellas footin' a bit o'turf" ??

A. I didnt vote for any of them, i did not vote for the president of the EU, or the commission,
these very same institutions that "gave" us billions in subsidies and what not we now owe almost 100 billion to, so we got noting for nothing.If you think Europe has been good for us, lets see how that works out in the next few years


B. my family hired over 20 seasonal workers, that was on just one bog.

C. I don't expect any massive fines nor is there any proof of any forthcoming fines, that's just more scaremongering from the left.

D. you got social welfare didnt you? contract turf cutters cant, but you already knew this.

the underlined part is something a typical city boy would say about us culchies when he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.


if you call the way turf cutters/ bog owners are being treated democracy, im afraid we have different views on what that word means.

btw, your link only states the amount over 15 years , this is common knowledge, that doesnt explain who's going to, or who should pay for the installation of oil heating into thousands of homes across the country, massaging figures a posting links does not paint a better picture

MadsL

geneyuss wrote: »

A. I didnt vote for any of them, i did not vote for the president of the EU, or the commission,
these very same institutions that "gave" us billions in subsidies and what not we now owe almost 100 billion to, so we got noting for nothing.If you think Europe has been good for us, lets see how that works out in the next few years

Remind me again about how cutting turf will change all of this.

B. my family hired over 20 seasonal workers, that was on just one bog.

So not full time then. That was exactly my point, thank you.

C. I don't expect any massive fines nor is there any proof of any forthcoming fines, that's just more scaremongering from the left.

You mean turfcutters putting their fingers in their ears and going la-la-la-can't hear you just as they have for the past ten years. I see you are no longer arguing that there was no 10 year notice period to cease cutting.

D. you got social welfare didnt you? contract turf cutters cant, but you already knew this.

Remind me again about the compensation that plasterers and brickies got, oh that's right they didn't. As to SW - weren't the vast majority of them self-employed so no SW either. Again, remind me why contract turf cutters are "special" and need help now they have failed to make alternative provision.

the underlined part is something a typical city boy would say about us culchies when he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

The underlined was the codology that has been put about trying to paint turfcutting as a manual "traditional" activity, the kind of stuff with which you'd try to pull the wool over the eyes of the 'typical city boy'.

Feel free to try and pull the old culchie/city divide to gain sympathy. Those of us who do actually know something about it ain't buying it.

if you call the way turf cutters/ bog owners are being treated democracy, im afraid we have different views on what that word means.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, ten year derogations and €23k compensation. Shocking.

If you think taxpayers have bottomless pockets to throw money about until turfcutters stop whining that is not my idea of democracy either.

Grudaire

I wonder who you did vote for, I would guess strongly that those people/parties can be shown to be responsible for these laws.

And are you seriously claiming that Ireland has never been fined by the EU for environmental breeches of agreements?

geneyuss

MadsL wrote: »

Remind me again about how cutting turf will change all of this.


So not full time then. That was exactly my point, thank you.


You mean turfcutters putting their fingers in their ears and going la-la-la-can't hear you just as they have for the past ten years. I see you are no longer arguing that there was no 10 year notice period to cease cutting.


Remind me again about the compensation that plasterers and brickies got, oh that's right they didn't. As to SW - weren't the vast majority of them self-employed so no SW either. Again, remind me why contract turf cutters are "special" and need help now they have failed to make alternative provision.



The underlined was the codology that has been put about trying to paint turfcutting as a manual "traditional" activity, the kind of stuff with which you'd try to pull the wool over the eyes of the 'typical city boy'.

Feel free to try and pull the old culchie/city divide to gain sympathy. Those of us who do actually know something about it ain't buying it.

if you call the way turf cutters/ bog owners are being treated democracy, im afraid we have different views on what that word means.

Yeah, ten year derogations and €23k compensation. Shocking.

If you think taxpayers have bottomless pockets to throw money about until turfcutters stop whining that is not my idea of democracy either.[/QUOTE]


what was your actual point,? other than confirming to us all that you believe turf cutting happens all year round, yes , you really do know what your talking about,

taxpayers should not have to foot a lot of bills,ie, student fee's, childrens allowance, bank bailouts i could go on forever, but as you say,,thats democracy

you keep comparing turf-cutters to builders etc which is laughable and this thread has just descended into posting links and copying things ive already read a hundred times, so i'll be leaving it now as after working over 30 years in this business i cant be bothered being patronised this evening.

MadsL

geneyuss wrote: »

what was your actual point,? other than confirming to us all that you believe turf cutting happens all year round, yes , you really do know what your talking about,

Nope, you were implying that they were full time job losses when they are clearly not. I never said anything about year-round.

taxpayers should not have to foot a lot of bills,ie, student fee's, childrens allowance, bank bailouts i could go on forever, but as you say,,thats democracy

You really don't understand democracy and the social economy do you.

you keep comparing turf-cutters to builders etc which is laughable

Builders > self-employed > economic downturn > no work at all > no SW or compensation
Turfcutters > self-employed >10 year notice of cessation > no part-time work > hands out for compensation.

Yes, laughable.

and this thread has just descended into posting links and copying things ive already read a hundred times,

Really, you seemed not to know the content of most of it.

so i'll be leaving it now as after working over 30 years in this business i cant be bothered being patronised this evening.

And for ten of those years you have been notified that the 'business' was coming to an end. Yet you still want a handout.

geneyuss

MadsL wrote: »

Nope, you were implying that they were full time job losses when they are clearly not. I never said anything about year-round.



You really don't understand democracy and the social economy do you.



Builders > self-employed > economic downturn > no work at all > no SW or compensation
Turfcutters > self-employed >10 year notice of cessation > no part-time work > hands out for compensation.

Yes, laughable.


Really, you seemed not to know the content of most of it.



And for ten of those years you have been notified that the 'business' was coming to an end. Yet you still want a handout.

i just need to clarify a few things, because your argument has turned so daft at this stage you are now putting words in my mouth.

i never "implied" anything.

i understand well how democracy and the social economy works.

you keep comparing turf-cutters to trade people, no matter how often you do that it doesn't sound anymore plausible.

I did know for ten years , actually longer i didnt seek any "hand-outs", compensation was offered. stick to the few facts you do know

freyners

MadsL wrote: »

...or what?

What compensation are you proposing and why?

the only change i would make to the compensation scheme is that i would include those who as being disenfranchised, ie the turf cutting non landowner.

Its should be pretty easy to find out who was cutting there before, a statement from the landowner would be pretty easy to get. It would quell alot of the discontent

MadsL

freyners wrote: »

Its should be pretty easy to find out who was cutting there before, a statement from the landowner would be pretty easy to get. It would quell alot of the discontent

So, the landowner, the brother, the brother's wife, the cousins, the wife's cousins the two lads either side of him, the fella from the pub. Uncle Tom Cobley and all.

All getting statements that they cut turf on his land so they can also get €23k.

This will not end well.

geneyuss

freyners wrote: »

the only change i would make to the compensation scheme is that i would include those who as being disenfranchised, ie the turf cutting non landowner.

Its should be pretty easy to find out who was cutting there before, a statement from the landowner would be pretty easy to get. It would quell alot of the discontent

totally agree, and there are not that many of them, if the government can find 100 billion to bail out a handful of greedy bankers,builders and developers etc, surely a few 100k can be found and put this issue to bed, it will be more economical than paying these so called massive fines we are facing if these guys keep cutting

K-9

southsiderosie wrote: »

MOD NOTE:

Just a reminder to posters: play the ball, not the (wo)man. If you can't critique someone's argument without critiquing their intelligence, then think long and hard before posting.

Personal digs aside, at this point this 'debate' seems to be generating more heat than light. If this is just going to be a snipe-fest, then I'm afraid this thread isn't going to stay open much longer.

We had another mod warning after that so as it seems impossible to have a civil discussion on this issue, better closed to avoid bans!