Not Quite Four Laps

KielyUnusual

I've enjoyed reading some of the other training logs on this website and found them very helpful in my own running. I'm starting this training log primarily to motivate myself but also I think it's handy to see how other runners approach their targets.
Background information:
I'm originally from Tipp but have been living in Dublin for the last few years. I do most of my running around Fairview and Clontarf. Great area for long distance runs along the river. I started running back in June 2011 after signing up for the Race Series in Phoenix Park (Too late for the 5 mile though). Then went on to do the marathon and finished it in 3 hr 30min. The pacers were a godsend. This year, I ran the Edinburgh Marathon with my brother and came in at 3hr 6min.
Goals:
I've signed up for the Dublin Marathon Race Series again this year and I'm doing the 5 mile race at the end of the month. I hope to do this in around 29 minutes but I'm not sure how realistic this is. Other than that I hope to put in some good competitive times in middle distance races and work up to a sub 3hr marathon. I'll probably do the Dublin Marathon again this year or if not myself and the brother are planning to run the London Marathon at the start of next year. I've been injury free since I've started running besides occasional niggles and aches and pains. I'd also love to keep this going for as long as possible.

ThePiedPiper

Kiely,

That's a seriously impressive increase from your first to your second marathon. With a bit of smart and consistent training, there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't run 29:xx for the 5 mile and 2:59 for the marathon.

Bear in mind that entries for London are extremely difficult to obtain, so unless you can get a Good for Age entry (sub 3:10 for runners with a UK address) or are prepared to do it through a charity or touring company, you don't just apply online and get an entry.

What sort of training are you currently doing? Did you take a lot of time off after Edinburgh or have you been ticking over well? Best of luck with your training over the coming months.

KielyUnusual

Cheers,

It took me by surprise as well. My brother has been a serious marathoner/triathalete/ironman for the past few years so I was motivated by the thought of beating him in Edinburgh. He pulled away from me in the last few miles though and came in at just over the 3 hour mark. He had mixed emotions about that. He knocked a quarter of an hour off his previous best but was frustratingly close to the sub 3.
I'm applying for the London Marathon using my brother's address over in Edinburgh and the good for age entry so hopefully that should be fine.
I took a week off after the marathon and I've just been doing 5 mile circuits around Drumcondra 4/5 days a week since. Fairly consistently doing it between 30 and 31 minutes. Going to start mixing it with some 1/2 km sprint and recovery sessions down in the park over the next two weeks and hopefully improve on that time a bit. I'm taking a fairly loose approach to the whole thing, so any advice would be much appreciated.

ThePiedPiper

That's speedy stuff for your 5 miles training runs. I'd suggest mixing it up a bit, getting in some longer runs, a few progression tempo runs, and as you said yourself there, an interval session.

As you probably know yourself, long runs are the bread and butter of marathon training. I'm aiming for a 2.55 early October marathon, so my long run is currently around 12-14 miles. I've always found that my best marathons, in the range between 2.58 and 3.05, have come when I've been doing 20 mile runs from 10-12 weeks out from the race. That's what works for me in any case.

Do you intend following any specific plan or just training according to advice you might receive here and how you feel? You've obviously got loads of natural speed and ability, given your form on those 5 mile circuits, but I think to get the best out of yourself, a bit more structure might help.

ray lanigan

RunForestRun wrote: »

That's speedy stuff for your 5 miles training runs. I'd suggest mixing it up a bit, getting in some longer runs, a few progression tempo runs, and as you said yourself there, an interval session.

As you probably know yourself, long runs are the bread and butter of marathon training. I'm aiming for a 2.55 early October marathon, so my long run is currently around 12-14 miles. I've always found that my best marathons, in the range between 2.58 and 3.05, have come when I've been doing 20 mile runs from 10-12 weeks out from the race. That's what works for me in any case.

Do you intend following any specific plan or just training according to advice you might receive here and how you feel? You've obviously got loads of natural speed and ability, given your form on those 5 mile circuits, but I think to get the best out of yourself, a bit more structure might help.

i agree 100% with the above,when you start getting them 20milers in,you will be one hardy runner,from your times already your going to run a killer time in the near futuresub3hr and better again,get down to the hard work and you will get the results you want:)

EauRouge79

I dont mean to Hijack this but I guess I am to an extent. My aim is also sub 3 in Berlin. Yet to get under 30 mins for 5 miles but very close, getting over that will give me a lot of confidence.
My last competitive marathons were 3:05 - dublin (2011) and 3:06 -connemara (2012).
I ran as a pacer in Cork and will run Waterford next week at 7:40 p/m pace. Hope to come in about 3hrs 20.
Whilst my training plan has 20 miles scheduled, I am running a marathon, albeit at the suggested LSR pace.
I want to toughen myself up for Berlin. Is adding marathons to my schedule doing to much? Traditionally I dont tend to recover very quickly, maybe thats a nutritional aspect I need to look at?
Any advice/experiences would be great.
Sorry KielyUnusual....hope some of what I have asked may benefit you as well.

ThePiedPiper

EauRouge,
I did a 3:40 marathon once 3 months out from a goal race, and it didn't do me much harm, but it's not something I would do regularly. I push the LSRs out to 23 miles, but only do that distance once for every marathon cycle. I don't think you can do too much damage if you're running at PMP+45 seconds. There's plenty of lads around here doing lots of pacing, and it doesn't seem to affect their times in their goal races too much.

KielyUnusual

I map all my runs out on MapMyRun and then just use a stopwatch on route to give my time. My main run at the moment is a 4.84 mile run around Drumcondra. It's a hilly enough run with the first 3 miles steadily uphill for an ascent of about 100ft then downhill for the rest with one quite steep uphill about a mile from the end. So my first run of the log is

When: 20 Jun Distance: 4.84 miles Time: 29m35s Pace: 6m06s/mile

This is marginally my fastest time around this loop so far. I'm generally in between 29m40s and 30m20s though, so it's consistent with what I normally do. I like to push myself fairly hard over the shorter distances so I wouldn't imagine there's too much margin for improvement there.

RunForestRun and ray lanigan: I definitely agree with ye both about the long runs. I probably could have done a bit better in both marathons if I'd put in a few more 20 mile + runs in. I think I'll take your advice and start getting some long runs in earlier in my schedule than usual. I actually only ended up doing one 20 mile run before each marathon with a couple of 15 mile runs thrown in, because I upped the mileage a little too late. I'm going to have to get a bit more variation into my running as well. I don't follow any particular plan but I've had a look at a few and generally try to follow the running patterns they set out. For both marathons so far I've been alternating between my 5 mile and 10 mile run and then throwing in a longer run every weekend in the 2 months before the marathon. I'll look in to the progression tempo runs as well. I've seen them mentioned in a few blogs on here and it's piqued my interest. I've been running just 5 miles for the past 3 weeks and I'm getting very bored with it at this stage.

Clearlier

You may want to take a look at 'Advanced Marathoning' by Pfitzinger and Daniels if you want to focus on a marathon. Aside from the multiple 12 and 18 week plans they have in the book they also go into a little bit of detail around the different types of run that you can do.

Given the training you describe, the times you have and your injury free status I'd think that you could go a lot faster than sub 3 with one of the P&D plans.

Good luck and keep the blog going.

KielyUnusual

Cheers Clearlier, I'll have a look at that

cwgatling

Great improvement there as others have said.

Jesus I'd be looking at 28:00 or less for the 5 miler if you are doing 4.84 in sub-30 as a training run. Best of luck.

KielyUnusual

I appreciate the confidence cwgatling but I'm running at the edge of my ability getting under 30 on the training run and don't think I could squeeze much more out of it. Just hope to get as close to 29 as possible at the end of the month. Had a gander at your training log as well. Your sub 60 minute 10 miles has inspired much jealousy.

KielyUnusual

Fairly shockingly miserable day for a run but got one in this morning anyway. Decided to do 'The Bull Run', which is a nice pleasant 10.1 mile run down the Liffey, round Bull Island and back. Very flat but no protection from the elements so a bit unpleasant on a wet and windy one like today. Might have been more than 10.1 today because large parts of Bull Island were flooded and I had to take a fair few detours getting a bit lost in the process. It must have teemed down last night. I've never seen it so bad.

When: 21 Jun Distance: 10.1 miles Time: 75m 48s Pace: 7m30s/mile

KielyUnusual

Down in Tipp for the weekend. Some fairly hilly countryside round my place so went on a 6.27 mile run that takes in a few of these. There's a gain of 500ft on the run and two category 5 climbs according to MapMyRun. Fairly attacked the hills and flew home on the flatter stretch towards the end. Tough on the shins, so don't like to do this one too often

When: 23 Jun Distance: 6.27 miles Time: 46m Pace: 7m19s/mile

KielyUnusual

Another hilly run down in Tipp again. This one was 8.06 mile. An ascent of about 500ft steadily for the first few miles and then a fairly steady descent with a flat finish for the last 3 miles or so.

When: 24 Jun Distance: 8.06 miles Time: 59m Pace: 7m19s/mile

KielyUnusual

Back to the 4.86 mile route. Had hoped to put in a decent time for a confidence boost before the race on Saturday. The weather put a stop to that. 23C and very humid. Was happy enough that I did it without stopping in the end.

When: 27 Jun Distance: 4.86 miles Time: 32m 26s Pace: 6m42s/mile

KielyUnusual

Just a bit of tempo running over 5 miles this morning. Don't have the instrumentation for more detail but got some good three quarter pace running and sprinting in there. Hopefully, I'm fairly set for the race Saturday. Going to have a bit of a rest tomorrow, maybe squeeze in a game of tennis.

KielyUnusual

Irish Runner 5 Mile


Race went well. A bit of traffic at first but found a good group that were running at my pace about halfway through and that kept me honest to the finish.
Crossed over the line in a time of 29m54s for 66th place overall. I was happy with this but I think I could have got down closer to 29 minutes. Having said that, I always think I can squeeze a bit more time out. It's easy to forget all the moments in a race where you're thinking 'f**k me, I'm fit to collapse'

ThePiedPiper

Excellent time Kiely. I heard the last couple of miles were tough, so to run sub 30 is a fantastic result.

Are you doing all of the Race Series races this year? Have you set yourself time targets for 10 mile or half yet?

After the 5 last year, I upped my long run to around 17 miles. I find that for the 10 mile and the half, the long runs way over the race distance are a great help.

KielyUnusual

Thnsfs RFR, I take it from your comment that you didn't run the race yourself. I signed up for the deal with all the races in the series. Are you doing any of these? I've set my goals for the 10K and the 10 mile as 38min and 63min respectively. Depending on how I do in these, I'll decide what time I can do the half marathon in. Maybe 84 minutes or so. Haven't really thought about that though. Bought a runners handbook yesterday with a few running plans in it, so I might follow one of these and take a more scientific approach to the whole thing. I have planned to get more long slow runs in for sure. I'm thinking of being up to 15 miles before the 10 mile. Don't have anything mapped out for 17 miles but I probably should. Don't have anything prepared for between 15 miles and 20 miles.

Went out for the 10 mile run around Bull Island today. Fierce windy on the way back, which was a bit of a pain in the arse. Went around quicker than I anticpated though.

When: 01 Jul Distance: 10.1 miles Time: 72m 07s Pace: 7m08s/mile

ThePiedPiper

No, I didn't bother with the 5 mile this year, was doing a local 10k today, and thought I'd a better PB chance in 10k than 5 mile, which worked out alright.
The time's you're talking about for the other distances are about spot on for a 2.57 or 2.58 marathon. For example, I ran 38 for 10k today, blew up in the 10 miler last year but ran 64, and ran 84 for the half. Judging on your 5 mile time, you could well be capable of a 1.22 half, 1.24 might be a bit soft for you. But again, you probably won't know that until closer to the time. The only reason I'm suggesting this is I've put myself in that sort of shape a couple of times and just missed out on sub 3, so I reckon that a 1.24 half is just about good enough for a sub 3 marathon. However, each person is different and you could get 10 different opinions on that also.

Unfortunately, the dates for all the rest of the race series races don't suit me, so I'm lining up alternative races, probably the National Half on 1st September. I'm doing the Budapest marathon on 7th October, so that's my plan for the summer/autumn.

It seems we're on similar enough paths for the next few months, I suppose I'm going to target 2.55 or so, so it'll be good to compare notes.

Best of luck with upping the distances over the next while.

Clearlier

Hope you don't mind me jumping in but I seem to have signed up for your log and had a couple of thoughts on your recent entries.

Well done on the 5 mile race. Anything sub-30 for 5 miles shows enough speed for a sub-3 marathon. I was surprised at your pace for a 10 mile run today though. Not that you could do it but that you would. I would normally expect to back a Saturday race up with an easy long run on the Sunday. 10 miles at just over 7mm pace is pushing it a bit. It's not really giving your body a chance to recover from the effort yesterday and it's not really targeting a specific area of fitness. It's too long for a threshold run and it's too short to have much of an impact on endurance. More running is generally good but this kind of training increases your risk of injury.

Take a look at this for a detailed explanation as to why slower running will make you faster. The long and the short of it is that to improve your running at all distances (other than sprint) you really need to improve your endurance.

You may also find this interesting. Lydiard was arguably the first coach to mix up all the different types of running in a systematic way. He also was able to train his athletes to peak at the right time much more consistently than any other coach. On the last point I think you'd benefit from having a primary goal for the next few months. The training to do a good half is subtly but importantly different to that for a good marathon. You'll probably PB in both but if you choose now which one you want to do relatively better in you can then orient your training towards that goal whilst still doing the other races.

village runner

Clearlier wrote: »

Hope you don't mind me jumping in but I seem to have signed up for your log and had a couple of thoughts on your recent entries.

Well done on the 5 mile race. Anything sub-30 for 5 miles shows enough speed for a sub-3 marathon. I was surprised at your pace for a 10 mile run today though. Not that you could do it but that you would. I would normally expect to back a Saturday race up with an easy long run on the Sunday. 10 miles at just over 7mm pace is pushing it a bit. It's not really giving your body a chance to recover from the effort yesterday and it's not really targeting a specific area of fitness. It's too long for a threshold run and it's too short to have much of an impact on endurance. More running is generally good but this kind of training increases your risk of injury.

Take a look at this for a detailed explanation as to why slower running will make you faster. The long and the short of it is that to improve your running at all distances (other than sprint) you really need to improve your endurance.

You may also find this interesting. Lydiard was arguably the first coach to mix up all the different types of running in a systematic way. He also was able to train his athletes to peak at the right time much more consistently than any other coach. On the last point I think you'd benefit from having a primary goal for the next few months. The training to do a good half is subtly but importantly different to that for a good marathon. You'll probably PB in both but if you choose now which one you want to do relatively better in you can then orient your training towards that goal whilst still doing the other races.

Couldnt agree more. I would be running 80 min for 10 miles day after a race. I get endurance but I also recover. All your runs seem quick. An example would be I run my easy runs at a slower pace and I would be break 3 on a bad day.

KielyUnusual

Clearlier/village runner, I agree with ye both. I don't really run with any plan. My approach has been a mite higgildy piggildy so far. Clearlier, I read your links and I'm in the middle of a book on the matter, so I'm devising a plan at the moment. A good 16 week one should take me up to the Dublin Marathon. I don't want to do any stupid running and banjax myself with an injury.

RunForestRun, it's good to see your running a marathon in October and we've similar enough targets to each other. See what kind of times we're posting in our next few races and we might get some healthy competition going. When you post a decent time in early October, it might be the extra bit of motivation I'll need piling down Merrion Square a few weeks later. Budapest sounds like a quality marathon to do too. Must get a few exotic ones in myself over the next few years. Not that I'm saying Scotland isn't exotic, of course. Lord no.

KielyUnusual

• Monday and Tuesday Rest days. Hip was a bit sore and I had an interview Tuesday I needed to get some preparation in for.

• Wednesday - 7 mile Fartlek & 5 a side football

• Thursday - 10.1 Mile Run in 76m 50s(8 @~8min/mile & 2 @~6min/mile)

KielyUnusual

Friday - 6.07 mile easy run (7m35s/mile)

KielyUnusual

First long run of the new plan

Saturday - 14.82 miles in 1h55m @ 7m 47s/mile

KielyUnusual

Sunday - Rest

Monday - 6.07 miles in 39m28s @ 6m30s/mile

KielyUnusual

Tuesday - 8.19 miles in 61m04s @7m27s/mile

KielyUnusual

Wednesday

6.07 miles in 45m02s @7m25s/mile

EauRouge79

KielyUnusual wrote: »

.

• Wednesday - 7 mile Fartlek & 5 a side football

We have similar aims as well for the Autumn. Im having a go at sub 3 in Berlin. Im not one to pontificate but I have given up my 5 a side with the lads completely. As much as it kills me to do so.
Your only one twisted ankle, groin strain, kick from some clown and the whole thing could be down the swanny?

KielyUnusual

Thursday

10.1 miles in 72m35s @7m11s/mile

EauRouge, best of luck in Berlin. Fair play for giving up the football but I don't think I'll be following suit.

KielyUnusual

Friday

2 mile warm up followed by 4x800m (roughly-2 laps of a hurling field, measured on MapMyRun)

Times: 2m45s, 2m42s, 2m42s, 2m39s

1 mile warm down

KielyUnusual

Saturday

2.5 miles @ ~6m45s/mile

Meant to do 6 easy miles but was a bit worse for wear this morning. Happy to get anything in today really. Tomorrow will be the serious run for the week. 13 miles and going to try for 8 at projected marathon pace (A slightly ambitious 6m30s/mile)

KielyUnusual

Sunday

13.1 miles in 96m24s

4 @ 6m30s/mile & 9.1 @ 7m45s/mile

Meant to do 8 at PMP but wasn't happening today.

KielyUnusual

Monday

Rest

Tuesday

5.5 mile cycle to the Kilbarrack Cinder Track

1 mile warm up, 6 x 800m with 2 minute intervals, 1 mile warm down

2'45", 2'44", 2'44", 2'45", 2'43", 2'45"

Cycle home

KielyUnusual

Wednesday

4.84 miles @ 7m17s/mile

Thursday

10.1 miles @ 7m16s/mile

KielyUnusual

Friday

4 miles easy @ 7m30s/mile
3 miles @10k pace (5m58s/mile)
1 mile steady (6m30s/mile)

Wasn't sure what kind of session to do this morning with the 10k on Sunday but decided it was best to get in a few miles at race pace for a confidence boost and to check on my pacing. It's been a while since I ran at this pace. Wasn't too easy but wasn't difficult enough for me to think it impossible that I'd keep it up for another 3 miles. Depends on how I feel on the day. Rest day tomorrow.

KielyUnusual

Ended up having to cycle out to Swords for this one. Luckily there was a mighty breeze that carried me the 12km out to Swords in just under half an hour with little effort on my part. I was less thankful for the same conditions in the race that followed.
The race was really well organised. I've never been to Swords before but finding my way round was a doddle and the start/finish area in the village centre was quality. Really good atmosphere and much better than the other Phoenix Park races. I got a good position at the start and settled in to my pace early on without having to do any real overtaking or been overtaken. First half of the race, I kept a good steady pace and at the halfway point I was just inside my target (hoping for 37m30s). 5K to 8K were really tough though and I lost a bit of time here. There was one long steady incline into the wind that I found particularly energy sapping. Once past this though, I was really flying again and tried to make up the lost time. I was surging up the final short steep hill leading into the village and with 200m to go, I went all out. I overtook five or six people in quick succession and set after a lad from the Raheny Club just about 20 yards ahead. I was eating up the ground between us going at full pelt but the line came about a metre or two too early and I almost careened in to a group of stewards/finishers just beyond the line. Felt really good to be able to full on sprint over the line.
Finish time was 38.01. A little bit disappointed with this but at the same time it wasn't too far off my goal. Conditions weren't ideal but it's rare that they are. Very happy with my kick at the finish. Just have to work on keeping my pace up in the third quarter of races. Often lose a bit of motivation during this portion.

KielyUnusual

Monday

Unscheduled rest day but did do a long 45km cycle in this stinking humidity that left me fairly spent

Tuesday

6.07 miles @ MP (6m28s/mile)

Tried to concentrate on my running form during this run and being as economical with it as possible. Watched Born to Run last night; a BBC documentary about Kenyan runners. Was inspired by David Rudisha's lovely relaxed rhythmic stride. Going to try and get in more marathon paced miles during the week and try and get a few in with every long run.

KielyUnusual

Wednesday

1 mile warm up / 4 x 1600m / 1 mile warm down

Times: 5:37, 5:41, 5:39, 5:36

Happy with this. Was going to do 8 x 800m but thought this might be a more beneficial workout, endurance wise. Bit of a cycle out to Kilbarrack though. Must join a club in the new year. Thinking of going to check out the Crusaders and the Clonliffe Harriers. Both are about equidistant from me.

KielyUnusual

Thursday

9 miles @ 7m50s/mile

Ran this after a massive full Irish in the Lovin' Spoon café. Subsequently, I almost got sick in the Liffey

Friday and Saturday

Unscheduled rest because a friend was back from England for a few days and was staying over

Sunday

6 miles @ 6m29s/mile

Meant to do an 18 mile LSR with 6 @ MP but didn't have the time so will have to do later in the week. This felt very easy today with the few days rest in the legs. Good confidence boost.

KielyUnusual

Monday

18.03 miles @ 7m21s/mile (5@MP)

Got the long run I had planned for yesterday in today. Don't normally do evening runs and went out an hour after a sizeable dinner. My stomach didn't like my decision making too much and I had to stop a couple of times when the cramps got on the severe side. Chalk this one down to experience. Legs felt very good though and got in 5 good miles at the end.

KielyUnusual

Tuesday

6.07miles @ 7m22s/mile

KielyUnusual

Wednesday

Popped down to the cinder track in Kilbarrack for a session. Didn't work out too well though. Had intended on doing 4 X 1600 but only got two done. Headed out too quickly and with the wind and humidity this morning I felt it best not to push myself too hard and leave this one for later in the week.

1 mile w/u, 2 x 1600m off 2min, 1 mile w/d

5m26s, 5m34s

KielyUnusual

Thursday

10.1 miles @ 7m29s/mile

Weak going out, strong coming back. Good running weather for a change.

KielyUnusual

Friday

1 mile w/u, 4 x 1600 off 2 min, 1 mile w/d

5m42s, 5m42s, 5m47s, 5m37s

Happy with the the consistent times in my first two repeats, not so much with the third. Picked it up on the fourth and smoothed out my average nicely. Driving rain into my face on the back straight. Not very nice.:(

KielyUnusual

Saturday

6.27 miles @ 7m11s/mile

Down in Tipp for the weekend. Very hilly run around the back roads. Good for strengthening the legs I hope.

KielyUnusual

Sunday & Monday

Rest. Scheduled on Sunday but had intended on a long run for Monday which had to be delayed to...

Tuesday

15 miles (10 easy(~7m30s/mile), 5 @PMP(~6m30s/mile))
Bit of a mishap with the stopwatch today. Pressed the CLEAR button instead of the SToP/START button. Reasonably confident that my pacing was about right.

KielyUnusual

Wednesday

6 miles @ 7m59s/mile

My legs were in bits after the run yesterday and a game of football in the evening. Creaked around the 6 mile route at a very handy pace.

ThePiedPiper

Well KielyUnusual,

Just having a read through some of your recent posts there, as I was in the land of no internet for a few weeks.
Good work in the Fingal 10k. I was chattin to a few lads in the club who said it was a tough course for fast times, so good work on getting 38 flat.

You're a brave man still doing the soccer with the lads, I don't think I could take the risk of an injury. Do you think you'll keep it up even 3-4 weeks out from your goal marathon?

Your training looks to be going great, nice mix of sessions and longer runs. The 6 x 800 at 2.45 is pretty impressive. There's a session I've done a few times, know as Yasso 800s. It's 10 x 800m, with 2 min intervals. The goal pace in minutes is the same as goal marathon pace in hours. So, if you're going for a sub 3 marathon, then it'd be 800s at 2.55-3.00 minutes each. Pace isn't that difficult I've found, but hard to keep it going on the last couple.

I've been up and down a bit over the past couple of months. Put in a huge block of 315 miles in 3 weeks in July, mostly easy pace around 7.30ish. However, a nasty dogbite put manners on me for a couple of weeks, sort of broke momentum. Managed 5k and 10k PBs in July at 18.10 and 38.12, and 5 mile and 4 mile PBs this month of 29.45 and 23.30 so I'm in ok shape. The next target is a 1.22-1.23 at the National halfs and I'll then assess the marathon goal time in mid-September. If I get in a few good weeks, hopefully sub 3 will be on the cards.

Sorry for the long rambling post.