Why are you an atheist?

swampgas

seamus wrote: »

In many cases the atheist is very unfussed about these things, and since the various chants and rituals of whatever religion have no inherent meaning to them, but do to their partner, they'll often go along with them.

This seems to be the case - I seem to be in a minority of atheists who refuse to pretend for the sake of other people.

It's easy for me in one sense - both I and my other half are what might be termed strong atheists, and neither of us can imagine being in a relationship with someone religious. It's such a fundamental part of our world view that it would be very difficult to get past it.

Personally, I feel that my beliefs are as important to me as other people's are to them, simple as that. I shouldn't have to pretend to be what I'm not in a free society.

shizz

Just out of curiosity, does it cost money to give a child a christening? I presume it does.

Dades

shizz wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, does it cost money to give a child a christening? I presume it does.

Circa 50 quid tip to the priest/sacristan. That's the only *official* cost.

If you throw a party afterwards you might splash out on some vol-au-vents.

shizz

Dades wrote: »

Circa 50 quid tip to the priest/sacristan. That's the only *official* cost.

If you throw a party afterwards you might splash out on some vol-au-vents.

ugh. The thoughts of giving them money for pouring water on a child's head... robbery at its finest.

Ickle Magoo

rkeano5 wrote: »

I was born an atheist and have yet to encounter anything that persuades me otherwise. That is all.

^^ This.

I had a chat with my dad at five or six because despite knowing about religion and being sent to sunday school - to get a rounded "education" as it were - I just didn't get religion...didn't see/hear god, didn't believe in the miracles and found the biblical explanations for creation/messiahs/etc frankly ridiculous...I haven't found/seen/heard/read anything in the years since that would convince me my five year old self missed something critical...thus I still have my default atheism.

Bannasidhe

I was moved from a Catholic primary to a non-denominational primary aged 7 due to a 'issue' I had with the concept of Papal infallibility. My mother gave up dragging me to Mass when I was 10. But I suppose the crunch for me was when I was doing my junior cert when I was 14.

The play was Romeo and Juliet, in our school we also studied the Reformation in great detail so I had to read Luther's 95 Thesis. It seemed to me he was making some very valid points -in particular his comment 'Death puts an end to all the claims of the Church; even the dying are already dead to the canon laws, and are no longer bound by them.'

I had a think about that - seemed to me Luther was saying that any authority the Pope held was as representative of God on Earth. Therefore, that authority ceased to exist when a person died. Therefore, the Pope can not grant indulgences to those in Purgatory as they are outside his field of influence. Therefore the Sale of Indulgences is a scam.' Hello!

Then I learned the money was to fund the construction of St Peter's and all the art bling. I smelt a great big rat.

Pretty quickly I realised that Rome Vs Luther was not dissimilar to Montague Vs Capulet - two gangs going to war. I'm not much of a joiner and I didn't want to be in any bodies 'gang'.

But once I had managed to reject the RCC's version - it was a matter of nothing to reject all the other gangs versions as 'same meat different gravy' or as I once jokingly remarked to a Buddhist friend - now that I have completely rejected the one true church (:p), why would I bother with any of the others?'

I really do understand the attraction of religion - I also understand the attraction of Fascism. Indeed, I see them as being similar - the need to believe in an all- powerful Daddy who rewards his favourite children i.e. the obedient ones and punishes the 'others'. A Daddy who has a plan and makes sure every thing works according to the plan. In short - an all powerful Patriarch whose word is law.

Feck that!!!


It may have helped that my Dad was a knob with illusions of being a Patriarch but it was actually my Grandmother who got things done and was our go-to person.

Would I ever get married in a Church - can't see that as ever being an option for me as a) I am one of those happy few who managed to officially defect from the RCC and I am now 'forbidden' from participating in their rituals - no loss there. b) as an unrepentant and I no longer need to practise as I have gotten really good at it homosexual if I were to get married it would be to a member of the same gender and apparently this would cause the world to end if it happened in a church. If if neither was the case - no, I would NOT get married in a church - or a mosque or a synagogue or a Hindu temple or any other religious specific building. Why? I don't have a religion. Any religion.

Would I get my children baptised? I didn't as I felt it would be the height of hypocrisy.

I am utterly fascinated by the mechanics of religious belief. Why people believe what they do. Whether they have examined that belief. How that belief holds up to questioning etc etc. The psychology of it all. My OH defined herself as a Catholic when we met. I must admit I had her plagued with questions - 'explain this to me?', 'If a = b how can you 'believe' c?' 'Yes, but in the Bible it clearly states blah blah blah so surely that is a contradiction. How can you believe a contradiction?' 'Transubstantiation - do you really believe you are consuming flesh and blood - oh. You didn't know about that....??? No, I am not making it up!' Eventually she decided she was a Lutheran - she has now decided all religion is just a control scam but she absolutely believes in the existence of God - and has forbidden me from asking her any more bloody questions as her answer will always be 'Because I just do.'

BluntGuy

To be honest like most people, the short hand version is I just realised it was a bunch of crap. I'd only ever really been a "cultural catholic", I barely knew any of the bible, went to mass once in a blue moon (when forced to by my parents - who also didn't really care about church), and pretty much disagreed with a large chunk of what the church said on just about everything.

So it wasn't much of a "transformation". Was never particularly "religious" and I think I knew it for a long time. The only hard part was losing the fear of death I suppose, heaven at the time was a comforting enough notion, but once over that (and I had a gentle push from an atheist friend of mine who encouraged me to be honest with myself), things led on from there. The greater benefit really was my change in thinking about everything, being more questioning of not just my religious beliefs but all the views I held.

swampgas wrote:

It's easy for me in one sense - both I and my other half are what might be termed strong atheists, and neither of us can imagine being in a relationship with someone religious. It's such a fundamental part of our world view that it would be very difficult to get past it.

I can understand this. My partner is nominally religious and though we have absolutely no problems between ourselves over it, having to deal with her family (who are very traditional and have certain expectations) can be a pain in the backside. That said, it's a pain in the backside for both of us so at least it's misery shared. We often get a laugh or two out of it anyway.

kylith

My epiphany came when I was about 12 and the priest's homily was on childrearing. I remember thinking "What gives this man, who has no children, and never will, the authority to tell other people how to rear theirs?" That's what started me thinking about the fact that the RCC talks about a lot of stuff it isn't qualified to, and put me off them to the point that my dad had a talk with me when I was 15 about how sad my attitude towards the church made him. Some more reading and thinking brought me from agnosticism to atheism.

These days I go to mass when I have to; weddings and funerals. I'll stand and sit, but I won't kneel. I will not get married in a church, and I will not have my children baptised. My parents understand this and know not to labour the point when the time comes.

old hippy

Rasheed wrote: »

Does any one find they have go explain themselves and how do people react eg. Do people try to change your mind or do you yourselves try and change people's minds regarding religion? Would it turn off potential dates for example!?

I don't have to explain myself in general. But unlike Ireland, here in London, the question "what religion are you" rarely comes up in general conversation. I met my wife in Dublin, she came from a typical Buddhist/Shinto background but is an atheist, just like me. A few of my friends are kind of religious, we agree to disagree. I'm off to visit my cousin in the States & she's really religious, so it will be an interesting experience

You can't change people's minds, as regards religion. They see it as a test of their faith and they don't like being challenged. Take it from me, only time and experience can change their minds. Some people are happy to be ignorant.

swampgas

Bannasidhe wrote: »

... Pretty quickly I realised that Rome Vs Luther was not dissimilar to Montague Vs Capulet - two gangs going to war. ...

Great analogy - I would love to assign it as an essay topic ....

Malari

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am one of those happy few who managed to officially defect from the RCC and I am now 'forbidden' from participating in their rituals - no loss there.

Me too!

I'd forgotten I did that.

swampgas

BluntGuy wrote: »

My partner is nominally religious and though we have absolutely no problems between ourselves over it, having to deal with her family (who are very traditional and have certain expectations) can be a pain in the backside. That said, it's a pain in the backside for both of us so at least it's misery shared. We often get a laugh or two out of it anyway.

I have it easy enough, but my brother's in-laws are traditional in a take-no-prisoners kinda way, and actually threatened to kidnap his baby and baptise it. He laughs about it now, but there were serious tensions there for a while.

real_irishken

I honestly can't say I believe in God or not. Personal experiences over the years have swayed me back and forth. Growing up in Ireland especially and hearing stories from my parents (who by the way never discouraged me from not going to mass) have severly tested my faith. The atrocities by the Catholic Church in Ireland and the feigned ignorance from Rome only further adds to my frustration.

On the other hand, I do consider myself quite spiritual which I believe are two completely different topics! But that's a debate for another time!

old hippy

real_irishken wrote: »

I honestly can't say I believe in God or not. Personal experiences over the years have swayed me back and forth. Growing up in Ireland especially and hearing stories from my parents (who by the way never discouraged me from not going to mass) have severly tested my faith. The atrocities by the Catholic Church in Ireland and the feigned ignorance from Rome only further adds to my frustration.

On the other hand, I do consider myself quite spiritual which I believe are two completely different topics! But that's a debate for another time!

In what way are you spiritual?

real_irishken

I don't believe man or humans is so special when you take in the context of the Universe. I have a passion for astronomy and I am constantly amazed at 'coincedences' that happen for just earth alone. Now everything I learn about has a valid explanation, but I sometimes view these as gifts rather than 'that's just the way it is'.

Captain Chaos

real_irishken wrote: »

I have a passion for astronomy and I am constantly amazed at 'coincedences' that happen for just earth alone. Now everything I learn about has a valid explanation, but I sometimes view these as gifts rather than 'that's just the way it is'.

It's those combination of conditions that allow for us to exist in the way we do in the first place, not the other way round. If conditions were different, life would be different or just simply not exist at all. Just look at the massive extremes in our own planet where life exists. In toxic boiling liquid around Yellow Stone to 8km down in the Atlantic with no sun light.

It all looks like it was "designed" for us but just the fact that we evolved to fit those conditions that make it look almost too perfect.

real_irishken

I'm sorry you're not getting the point. I know all this, I study Physics. I'm talking about how I feel when I see these occuring e.g eclipses, Venus transit, Volcanoes on distant moons. Yes they all have an explanation. But they are also special in their own way.

The Big Red Button

Rasheed wrote: »

Does any one find they have go explain themselves and how do people react eg. Do people try to change your mind or do you yourselves try and change people's minds regarding religion?

I've never really had anyone try to change my mind. My parents are Catholics, but we don't really discuss religion. They are obviously well aware that I don't go to mass, but I've never actually openly said to them that I'm an atheist. I don't see the point in having a fight over it.

My dad did get a bit upset when I informed him that I wouldn't be having a Catholic wedding (if I ever got married), and that I wouldn't be baptising any children I might have. And, in a way, I see his point of view. If you truly believed that not being baptised meant eternal damnation, well then of course you'd want your grandchildren to be baptised. But, while I understand his point of view, it's still my decision to make (or, more accurately, it will be my childrens' decision to make when they get older, if they want to get baptised.)

My little sister recently wanted to go to a week-long religious summer camp, where they stay overnight for the week, because her friends were going, and I put my foot down and made sure she didn't go to it. I just think she's being exposed to it plenty at school and at mass every Sunday, she doesn't need more brain-washing!

I don't try to change anyone's mind about religion, though. Everyone is entitled to have their beliefs respected.

Rasheed wrote: »

Would it turn off potential dates for example!?

In my case, it's the other way round - it would turn me off if a potential date was religious! So much so that, when I used a dating website before, I had the search filtered to exclude non-atheists.

It's not that I definitely wouldn't date someone religious, just out of principle. If I liked the person enough, of course I'd give the relationship a chance.

But I just cannot see how we could overcome such a fundamental difference of opinion. Even without bringing marriage/babies into the equation - we would have such different viewpoints on life and death and the world in general.

Sarky

Also, they rarely put out.

real_irishken

I always find it these days that baptisms and communions are get togethers for the family and friends. Religious significance seems to be lost on most families. Just an excuse for a piss up. Anybody agree or am I completely wrong?

shizz

real_irishken wrote: »

I always find it these days that baptisms and communions are get togethers for the family and friends. Religious significance seems to be lost on most families. Just an excuse for a piss up. Anybody agree or am I completely wrong?

Its Ireland. We can turn anything into an excuse for a piss up.

Rasheed

real_irishken wrote: »

I always find it these days that baptisms and communions are get togethers for the family and friends. Religious significance seems to be lost on most families. Just an excuse for a piss up. Anybody agree or am I completely wrong?

Ah no, ya have a valid point there. In my experience, not many under 60 place much emphasis on the religious part of these sacraments, it's the materialistic side of it, or the showing off to neighbours by having a blow out party.

Now I do believe in God in my own tin pot way, but I can't stand hypocrites. If you only baptise your child because you think you have too or to show neighbours you can throw a savage party, I think that's just ridiculous.

Malari

Apart from the impact of religious control on education, I don't really have a problem with people being cultural catholics. Is it that different to being a cultural Jew?

Bannasidhe

Rasheed wrote: »

Ah no, ya have a valid point there. In my experience, not many under 60 place much emphasis on the religious part of these sacraments, it's the materialistic side of it, or the showing off to neighbours by having a blow out party.

Now I do believe in God in my own tin pot way, but I can't stand hypocrites. If you only baptise your child because you think you have too or to show neighbours you can throw a savage party, I think that's just ridiculous.

Oh you haven't lived until you have experienced being a non-drinking Atheist at an Irish Christening. :eek:

Bannasidhe

Malari wrote: »

Apart from the impact of religious control on education, I don't really have a problem with people being cultural catholics. Is it that different to being a cultural Jew?

But if the religious control of schools is removed do you reckon there will be as many cultural Catholics?

Plus the Jewish analogy is not quite valid as 'Jewish' is both an ethnic classification and a religious one. Cultural Jews are defining themselves as being of the Jewish race - there is no such thing as a Catholic race. A better comparison would be with cultural Anglicans.

Rasheed

Malari wrote: »

Me too!

I'd forgotten I did that.

Like excommunicated!? I didn't know that still happened!

Malari

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But if the religious control of schools is removed do you reckon there will be as many cultural Catholics?

No, not as many I wouldn't think. But I would say a lot of people would still think getting married in church would be more atmospheric than a registry office. And I'm sure the party aspect of a christening would still be important to many.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Plus the Jewish analogy is not quite valid as 'Jewish' is both an ethnic classification and a religious one. Cultural Jews are defining themselves as being of the Jewish race - there is no such thing as a Catholic race. A better comparison would be with cultural Anglicans.

Well, I don't know if a Jewish race is valid either, but I take your point.

Rasheed

biko wrote: »

OP, when you explain to me why you don't bend knee to Odin I will explain why I don't pray to your god.

Sorry, am I the 'op'? I'm new to this so I don't know if that's me!

Also who is Odin??

Malari

Rasheed wrote: »

Like excommunicated!? I didn't know that still happened!

No, excommunication is not by choice. I wrote to the bishop. Actually a couple of bishops. They were passing me around until one of them took responsibility :pac: Then I eventually got my baptismal cert back null and voided. But you can't do that anymore...

Bannasidhe

Rasheed wrote: »

Like excommunicated!? I didn't know that still happened!

It used to be possible to officially defect (leave) the RCC and have this recorded but they changed the 'rules' and now all you can have is you desire to leave noted.