Store Detectives & Suspicion of Theft

later12

I had a bit of an unusual experience in a Dublin store yesterday and was curious as to the procedures that store detectives are expected to follow prior to searching or detaining customers.

I was in a well known male & female clothing store in the city centre where I regularly shop, and have occasionally noticed a store detective searching women's handbags as they left. I have often been there with shopping bags & have never attracted any attention.

I was in there again yesterday with my sister, and we spent about 10 minutes browsing the women's section. She didn't try on any clothes, but as we walked around I again noticed the store detective routinely check women's bags as they left. My sister & I walked toward the exit. The store detective asked my sister to show him her handbag & another retailer's shopping bag. I had a satchel in my hand, and was not asked to open it.

My sister hadn't noticed that the guy was asking all women to do this, and she was a little taken aback. She said he could have no reasonable grounds to suspect a theft; the store detective again remarked that if that were the case she wouldn't mind opening her bags.
My sister wasn't really having any of it, so I asked what would happen if she refused to do so. He said he would call the Gardai. Eventually I persuaded my sister that the detective was asking all women to do this, and she showed the store detective that there was nothing untoward; the store detective gestured us to leave.

At that point, I asked if we could see the store manager to clarify why all women were being searched, yet I (and as far as I could see, other men) had not been. The manager explained that there had been an ongoing shoplifting problem in womenswear which had led to a routine checking of handbags and shopping bags.

I'm just curious if anybody knows whether the security staff employed by the store in question are legally justified by performing such a routine search of female shoppers on exiting the shop, which is not based on some reasonable suspicion in light of a behaviour or an action that the store detective has observed?

Surely there is some question to answer in terms of privacy here?

Paulw

They have no power of search. If you say no, they cannot force you to show the contents of your posession, and nor can they stop you from leaving the store.

They can, of course, call the Gardai, if they suspect you of theft and follow you until the Gardai stop you.

seamus

later12 wrote: »

I'm just curious if anybody knows whether the security staff employed by the store in question are legally justified by performing such a routine search of female shoppers on exiting the shop, which is not based on some reasonable suspicion in light of a behaviour or an action that the store detective has observed?

"Justified" is subjective really.

They're perfectly entitled to make this request in the same vein that you are perfectly entitled to refuse the request.

They would have no grounds to detain anyone who refused, and while they can call the Gardai any attempt to prevent someone from leaving without reasonable grounds to suspect they had been stealing would be quite illegal and land the shop in a lot of trouble.

A court would likely look very unfavourably on this practice, not least because it was sexist but also because it's excessive and unreasonable.

Surely there is some question to answer in terms of privacy here?

Yes, I think there is. The implication on the part of the security guard that he would call the Gardai could be construed as a threat if she did not open her handbag and therefore a violation of the woman's right to privacy. IMO.

Tom Young

There's a case or two on this. It's been covered off before. Search: Qualified Privilege.

PCPhoto

from my unerstanding they cannot detain you - if they ask to see the inside of your bad you can refuse and continue to walk - if they detain you or suspect you of shoplifting and make their suspicions known they are leaving themselves open to litigation (defamation/false imprisonment).

I hope the shop manager will learn that they will soon be losing customers - people do not like to be inconvenienced (even if they have nothing to hide) - its more than likely many of the customers will not return.

CathalDublin

later12 wrote: »

I had a satchel in my hand, and was not asked to open it.

sorry had to be done;)

Departed

later12 wrote: »

I had a bit of an unusual experience in a Dublin store yesterday and was curious as to the procedures that store detectives are expected to follow prior to searching or detaining customers.

I was in a well known male & female clothing store in the city centre where I regularly shop, and have occasionally noticed a store detective searching women's handbags as they left. I have often been there with shopping bags & have never attracted any attention.

I was in there again yesterday with my sister, and we spent about 10 minutes browsing the women's section. She didn't try on any clothes, but as we walked around I again noticed the store detective routinely check women's bags as they left. My sister & I walked toward the exit. The store detective asked my sister to show him her handbag & another retailer's shopping bag. I had a satchel in my hand, and was not asked to open it.

My sister hadn't noticed that the guy was asking all women to do this, and she was a little taken aback. She said he could have no reasonable grounds to suspect a theft; the store detective again remarked that if that were the case she wouldn't mind opening her bags.
My sister wasn't really having any of it, so I asked what would happen if she refused to do so. He said he would call the Gardai. Eventually I persuaded my sister that the detective was asking all women to do this, and she showed the store detective that there was nothing untoward; the store detective gestured us to leave.

At that point, I asked if we could see the store manager to clarify why all women were being searched, yet I (and as far as I could see, other men) had not been. The manager explained that there had been an ongoing shoplifting problem in womenswear which had led to a routine checking of handbags and shopping bags.

I'm just curious if anybody knows whether the security staff employed by the store in question are legally justified by performing such a routine search of female shoppers on exiting the shop, which is not based on some reasonable suspicion in light of a behaviour or an action that the store detective has observed?

Surely there is some question to answer in terms of privacy here?

i would have told him call the garda and have plenty of witnesses when the found nothing

later12

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think she should probably e-mail a written complaint. It's not a massive deal, and I don't want to overstate the hassle, but I do feel it's an invasion of privacy and a somewhat sexist approach to loss prevention.

Departed wrote: »

i would have told him call the garda and have plenty of witnesses when the found nothing

Yes but the store would already be in a reasonable position to argue that its detective noticed something untoward - or thought he did. Nobody wants to make a major scene when you are being asked to co-operate with a store detective, we felt it was enough to register our dis-satisfaction but calling the Gardai would have been a waste of Garda time on top of an already un-necessary process originating from the store's procedures.

Paulw

later12 wrote: »

Yes but the store would already be in a reasonable position to argue that its detective noticed something untoward - or thought he did. Nobody wants to make a major scene when you are being asked to co-operate with a store detective, we felt it was enough to register our dis-satisfaction but calling the Gardai would have been a waste of Garda time on top of an already un-necessary process originating from the store's procedures.

It would be the store wasting Garda time, and you can continue on your way, while they wait for the Gardai. The store can't stop you from leaving.

Next time, be polite, say no to being searched and just keep walking.

Departed

later12 wrote: »

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think she should probably e-mail a written complaint. It's not a massive deal, and I don't want to overstate the hassle, but I do feel it's an invasion of privacy and a somewhat sexist approach to loss prevention.


Yes but the store would already be in a reasonable position to argue that its detective noticed something untoward - or thought he did. Nobody wants to make a major scene when you are being asked to co-operate with a store detective, we felt it was enough to register our dis-satisfaction but calling the Gardai would have been a waste of Garda time on top of an already un-necessary process originating from the store's procedures.

That is your choice of course. i would not let a security person search me. Seen too many abuse their little bit of 'power'. A lot of people have been wrongly accused cos a detective noticed something untoward - or thought he did.

i would refuse to be searched OP, just say no, let them call the gardai then you have a member of the gardai as a witness to your false arrest.

they have no right to search your bags. disgraceful conduct. just because their security cant do their job properly.

Departed

I have seen people searched too cos the beeper went off in Tesco. Never happened to me but i would not consent to be searched

Right 2B a liar

Does a beeper going off as you leave the store change anything?

later12

If you and the store's security cannot resolve why the beeper went off on an initial basis, I would say it sounds reasonable that the store's security would ask you to open your bags or else wait for the Gardai.

I do have sympathy for businesses trying to deal with shoplifting in an already difficult commercial climate. And most of them seem to know how to approach it properly and with tact. My only problem is with the ones who spend their time checking women's purses when they should be paying attention to the (presumably expensive) CCTV and merchandise alarm facilities at their disposal.

Paulw

later12 wrote: »

If you and the store's security cannot resolve why the beeper went off on an initial basis, I would say it sounds reasonable that the store's security would ask you to open your bags or else wait for the Gardai.

While they can ask to see in your bags, and can ask you to wait for the Gardai, they still have no power to search your bags, nor do they have any power to stop you from leaving the store.

Departed

later12 wrote: »

If you and the store's security cannot resolve why the beeper went off on an initial basis, I would say it sounds reasonable that the store's security would ask you to open your bags or else wait for the Gardai.
.

I wouldn't. If beeper goes off it is usually cos a tag was not removed which is shop's responsibility. have seen many innocent embarrassed folk who did not know they had right to refuse.

The rights of the shopper should be displayed at the door where they are asked to show their bags or they should be told they have right to refuse

Departed

Paulw wrote: »

While they can ask to see in your bags, and can ask you to wait for the Gardai, they still have no power to search your bags, nor do they have any power to stop you from leaving the store.

They can ask you can refuse. I would refuse but would ask them to call the garda if they wanted

later12

Departed wrote: »

The rights of the shopper should be displayed at the door where they are asked to show their bags or they should be told they have right to refuse

I completely agree with that.

If there's a tag left on an item, a shopper will quickly be able to discover that himself without the store's security intruding on his property. But I can see how a problem might arise if the store detective and the shopper could not resolve the beeping between them.

But yes, documentation on an individual's rights should certainly be available, if not on display inside the store then at least when an individual is being approached by store security.

seamus

Departed wrote: »

I wouldn't. If beeper goes off it is usually cos a tag was not removed which is shop's responsibility. have seen many innocent embarrassed folk who did not know they had right to refuse.

Well, I think it's situation dependent. The protocol in most shops is to return to the till and the shop assistant will go through the items you've purchased to make sure the tags have been removed.
Where it's a security guard, again the protocol would be to examine the bag containing your purchases rather than a handbag. This could be considered perfectly reasonable without violating ones privacy.

However, if someone has entered the store without the beeper going off, and then leaves without having bought anything and the beeper goes off, that would constitute reasonable grounds on the part of security to request access to the handbag and even detain someone until the Gardai arrive.

In some isolated cases this can occur even when the person's done nothing wrong, but I think in most such cases an innocent person would be compliant, so no legal issue would arise.

The rights of the shopper should be displayed at the door where they are asked to show their bags or they should be told they have right to refuse

Absolutely I agree. As I mentioned before, the security guard's failure to inform the OP's sister of this right and instead threaten her with the Gardai, could land the shop in all sorts of trouble.

tricky D

A friend works security in one of the well known shopping chains and they are quite specific as to the circumstances under which they will search. Their guidelines say that they must observe items being taken and/or concealed, no attempt made to pay and leaving without paying. They are reluctant to take any action without the above. The practices described in the OP would be regarded by them as bad practice at the very least and leave them vulnerable to legal action and would lead to disciplinary action for the guard in question.

Zambia

tricky D wrote: »

A friend works security in one of the well known shopping chains and they are quite specific as to the circumstances under which they will search. Their guidelines say that they must observe items being taken and/or concealed, no attempt made to pay and leaving without paying. They are reluctant to take any action without the above. The practices described in the OP would be regarded by them as bad practice at the very least and leave them vulnerable to legal action and would lead to disciplinary action for the guard in question.

Pretty much right on the money there.

DublinWriter

What tricky said.

I can't believe the stupidity of the store manager.

They can only detain you if they suspect that you have stolen something and you will be approached *when you leave the premises*.

You are within your rights to request that a member of An Garda Siochana carry out the search once they escort you back to the shop. I would *never ever* let a store detective carry this search out as I've heard of cases in the UK where they have planted items on people.

When no item is found, make sure you get the name of the store manager, security guard, member of AGS, note the date and time, go home and then call your solicitor at a time of your convenience.

Turner

A Garda cannot randomly search you for stolen property, which is what these shop workers are doing.

So if a Garda cannot, there is no way in hell i'd let a shop worker or security guard (what ever you want to call them) search me on the off chance that I had stolen something.

The shop saying "If you dont we'll call the Gardai" is a scare tactic that has no basis at all, but will fool the average law abiding citizen who doesnt know the law.

O/P Ring up the shops local Garda station and inform the Superintendent that a certain shop is conducting random searches and threatening people with the Gardai if they refuse.

People need to know their rights.

trad

tricky D wrote: »

A friend works security in one of the well known shopping chains and they are quite specific as to the circumstances under which they will search. Their guidelines say that they must observe items being taken and/or concealed, no attempt made to pay and leaving without paying. They are reluctant to take any action without the above. The practices described in the OP would be regarded by them as bad practice at the very least and leave them vulnerable to legal action and would lead to disciplinary action for the guard in question.

SCONE

Selection
Concealment
Observation
Non Payment
Exit

I use this principal with shoplifters. If I don't see it I don't stop them even if I am sure the have something. You will always get the again.

Farcear

I don't see that there is any legal grounds for search.

However, stopping (not searching) under the "citizens arrest" provisions would be permitted under section 4 of the Criminal Law Act, 1997:

4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.

Theft is an arrestable offence.

Right 2B a liar wrote: »

Does a beeper going off as you leave the store change anything?

I can see an argument for the beeper grounding a "reasonable suspicion" that the customer has committed theft.

Departed

seamus wrote: »

Well, I think it's situation dependent. The protocol in most shops is to return to the till and the shop assistant will go through the items you've purchased to make sure the tags have been removed.
Where it's a security guard, again the protocol would be to examine the bag containing your purchases rather than a handbag. This could be considered perfectly reasonable without violating ones privacy.

However, if someone has entered the store without the beeper going off, and then leaves without having bought anything and the beeper goes off, that would constitute reasonable grounds on the part of security to request access to the handbag and even detain someone until the Gardai arrive.

In some isolated cases this can occur even when the person's done nothing wrong, but I think in most such cases an innocent person would be compliant, so no legal issue would arise.
Absolutely I agree. As I mentioned before, the security guard's failure to inform the OP's sister of this right and instead threaten her with the Gardai, could land the shop in all sorts of trouble.

I have seen people have their shopping bags not handbags searched by security. I would not allow that

seamus

Farcear wrote: »

Theft is an arrestable offence.

"Reasonable cause" is important to be able to show though.
A beeper may not be sufficient in court, as there's a good chance it could be a false positive. The SCONE method outlined above provides a fairly rock-solid defence for any security guard.

I have seen people have their shopping bags not handbags searched by security. I would not allow that

Well it depends.
It would seem reasonable for a store to request that the person resolve the issue before leaving the store, including examining the purchases made in that store. Purchases made in another store would be more a matter of privacy, but at the end of the day it would all come down to who was being reasonable. It would be reasonable for the guard to ask the customer to go through their own purchases to have a check, and if they couldn't find anything, for the guard to check to verify this. IMO.

Marcusm

A beep going off is reasonable grounds for suspecting that a tag has been left on a bag or that a customer has brushed against the sensor. My expectation is that 90% of the occasions on which a shop sensor beeps results from an error or malfunction. A shop security guard would know this more than most; on this basis it could not result in a "reasonable suspicion" such as would permit a citizen's arrest.

Departed

Turner wrote: »

A Garda cannot randomly search you for stolen property, which is what these shop workers are doing.

So if a Garda cannot, there is no way in hell i'd let a shop worker or security guard (what ever you want to call them) search me on the off chance that I had stolen something.

The shop saying "If you dont we'll call the Gardai" is a scare tactic that has no basis at all, but will fool the average law abiding citizen who doesnt know the law.

O/P Ring up the shops local Garda station and inform the Superintendent that a certain shop is conducting random searches and threatening people with the Gardai if they refuse.

People need to know their rights.

i would tell them go ahead or would call the garda myself before i would let a securty guard would search anything i had.

is the op allowed to name this store????

Farcear

bubblypop wrote: »

is the op allowed to name this store????

There is no store.

It's a hypothetical scenario.

Read the forum charter.

Right 2B a liar

I am guessing from this thread that a lot of people like Rage Against the Machine

I think a miranda right type should be told to you by the SG, but what to call those rights :rolleyes:

Victor

Tom Young wrote: »

There's a case or two on this. It's been covered off before. Search: Qualified Privilege.

Sure, we can all accept that, but before demanding a search, doesn't there need to be some cause to have the search. Surely simply being female (and on the premises and not having bought anything) is insufficient.

Yes, shoplifters in a clothing shop are more likely to be women, but that doesn't make every woman a shoplifter. Surely it would be more practical to ask people to deposit their bags from other shops at a left luggage counter.

later12

bubblypop wrote: »

is the op allowed to name this store????

Farcear wrote: »

There is no store.

It's a hypothetical scenario.

Read the forum charter.

It's not a hypothetical scenario; but I don't think that matters since no legal advice is being sought and there is no question of any litigious engagement with the company whatever.

Because the practice is pretty unusual I'm fairly confident some users would already recognize the store in question; but I have no interest in naming it nor should I think do the mods!

fasttalkerchat

You're well within your rights to politely say no and leave. If they try to detain you you must have committed a crime that would give a sentence of a few years in prison (not sure of the exact number). If they try to hold you or lock you in an office its defamation of character, illegally holding you, assault etc.

FreudianSlippers

Right 2B a liar wrote: »

I am guessing from this thread that a lot of people like Rage Against the Machine

I think a miranda right type should be told to you by the SG, but what to call those rights :rolleyes:

Miranda warnings (only used in the USA) are more about admissibility of evidence than anything else. Sure, you're being informed of your rights - but not out of the kindness of the officer's heart. Because the Supreme Court ruled that evidence gained where the accused was unaware of their rights was inadmissible.

the culture of deference

Departed wrote: »

i would have told him call the garda and have plenty of witnesses when the found nothing

Paulw wrote: »

They have no power of search. If you say no, they cannot force you to show the contents of your posession, and nor can they stop you from leaving the store.

They can, of course, call the Gardai, if they suspect you of theft and follow you until the Gardai stop you.

Paulw wrote: »

It would be the store wasting Garda time, and you can continue on your way, while they wait for the Gardai. The store can't stop you from leaving.

Next time, be polite, say no to being searched and just keep walking.

Is this right then, If you refuse to be searched, they cannot detain you, so you are able to leave the store freely, do you even have to acknowledge their presence?.

They can only follow you out of store and point you out to a Garda who may or may not be interested in doing anything.

Is this the same for a Luas inspector asking for your ticket?, they cannot detain you, so you are able to leave the luas freely, do you even have to acknowledge their presence?.

Once you are off the tram you are on public property and they have no power.

MagicSean

the culture of deference wrote: »

Is this right then, If you refuse to be searched, they cannot detain you, so you are able to leave the store freely, do you even have to acknowledge their presence?.

They can only follow you out of store and point you out to a Garda who may or may not be interested in doing anything.

Is this the same for a Luas inspector asking for your ticket?, they cannot detain you, so you are able to leave the luas freely, do you even have to acknowledge their presence?.

Once you are off the tram you are on public property and they have no power.

A security guard can use a citizens arrest to detain you if they are sure you committed an offence.

There are seperate laws which cover the Luas and give power to ticket inspectors.

fasttalkerchat

the culture of deference wrote: »

Is this right then, If you refuse to be searched, they cannot detain you, so you are able to leave the store freely, do you even have to acknowledge their presence?.

They can only follow you out of store and point you out to a Garda who may or may not be interested in doing anything.

Is this the same for a Luas inspector asking for your ticket?, they cannot detain you, so you are able to leave the luas freely, do you even have to acknowledge their presence?.

Once you are off the tram you are on public property and they have no power.

Even on private property they cannot detain you for not having a ticket. In the case of a robbery staff can detain you because that is a more serious offence.

For some reason the statute book isn't throwing up any relevant documents. I want to say that the offence should be severe enough to have a maximum sentence of 2 years in prison but I'm not sure.

Departed

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Miranda warnings (only used in the USA) are more about admissibility of evidence than anything else. Sure, you're being informed of your rights - but not out of the kindness of the officer's heart. Because the Supreme Court ruled that evidence gained where the accused was unaware of their rights was inadmissible.

who cares about why you are told your rights as long as you are. if criminals have the right to miranda why not innocent

the culture of deference

MagicSean wrote: »

A security guard can use a citizens arrest to detain you if they are sure you committed an offence.

There are seperate laws which cover the Luas and give power to ticket inspectors.

What happens then if you have nothing on you? or if you have a receipt, or in the luas case if you have a ticket?

FreudianSlippers

Departed wrote: »

who cares about why you are told your rights as long as you are. if criminals have the right to miranda why not innocent

Neither myself nor this thread are interested in the goings on of US criminal procedure and evidence. If you want to discuss the procedure in Ireland regarding the Judges' Rules then you are free to do so. Otherwise it's miles off topic.

MagicSean

the culture of deference wrote: »

What happens then if you have nothing on you? or if you have a receipt, or in the luas case if you have a ticket?

You could consider a civil case against the security guard. I don't know the specific laws for the Luas so I don't know what they can do.

silverharp

in France and Germany they ask to look at your bags going into some stores, so you have a choice. seems like bullyboy tactics, like drugs...just say no!

fasttalkerchat

silverharp wrote: »

in France and Germany they ask to look at your bags going into some stores, so you have a choice. seems like bullyboy tactics, like drugs...just say no!

This happened me in France. When I was at the tills I went to open my bag to get my wallet and they had cable tied the zip! I thought one of the lads had done it at first then noticed that everyone had them. I had to go over to the exit to get the security guard to remove it then go back in to pay so defeated the purpose.