Voluntary ambulances forbidden from transporting anymore?

Just heard from a CD colleague that all ambulances transporting will now need to have 2 Paramedics on board to be "sec" compliant. That can't be true can it?

adam88

isure is, it came from the top, effective immediately, no transfers unless min paras and cen compliant ambulance

gem112

This is an extract from a Civil Defense document released yesterday:

Quote:
During a conference call with Dr. Cathal O’Donnell, Medical Director, National Ambulance Service this morning, voluntary organisations were informed that an instruction is due to issue this week to Ambulance Control, that voluntary ambulances will no longer be tasked to transport patients to hospital. Instead should a call be received from a voluntary organisation in relation to the transport of a patient, or requesting Advanced Life Support (ALS) – a HSE Ambulance should be dispatched to take a handover and transport the patient.

The following reasons were stated in relation to this decision:
• This is the published PHECC Standard.
• The HSE Ambulance Service, as the Statutory Ambulance Service has a statutory obligation to patient care, if the HSE request a voluntary ambulance to transport a patient, the HSE is then legally liable to that patient.
• There have been incidents where a voluntary ambulance transported a patient to an incorrect hospital – considering the HSE by-pass policy. This caused problems for the patient and the hospitals concerned. Civil Defence were not involved

For specific events, if a voluntary organisation can confirm in writing to the HSE Ambulance Service that they meet the PHECC standard to transport a patient, then the voluntary ambulance can and will be tasked if required.

Hooch

This is cover your ass stuff. The key to this is " control will not TASK"

This takes the blame away from the HSE if something happens. Vols can still transport themselves informing control of such. Remember CPGs say to transport when you can for more than half the EMT CPGs.

adam88

Hooch wrote: »

This is cover your ass stuff. The key to this is " control will not TASK"

This takes the blame away from the HSE if something happens. Vols can still transport themselves informing control of such. Remember CPGs say to transport when you can for more than half the EMT CPGs.

Some serious clarifications needed on this

miju

not really much to be clarified on to be honest it's been a PHECC standard for a loooonng time ( see here )Though haven't heard anything about it myself in relation to Vols

After reading that sheet, I have to wonder if volunteers were thought of at all. It makes no mention of whether the lower classes hand over to the minimum standard, and leaves space open for some smart alec to run sirens blazing to a hospital, telling no one until they arrive at A&E with their patient.

If volunteers can't transport, that's a lot of equipment, time, training & money gone down the swanny so. Might as well sell off the ambulances & all get 4x4s with responder kits.

sgthighway

gem112 wrote: »

For specific events, if a voluntary organisation can confirm in writing to the HSE Ambulance Service that they meet the PHECC standard to transport a patient, then the voluntary ambulance can and will be tasked if required.

This will be the way to go for most of it but I can see the word specific taken out. It will be a case of agreeing a protocol with them. Not too bad if you only have one ED to go to.

I wouldn't speculate too much until I see it in writing.

adam88

And now to throw it all up in the air. This whole change has been suspended until negotiations take place

Medic475

Was talking to Ambulance Control in Ballyshannon all weekend and nothing was said!

adam88

Medic475 wrote: »

Was talking to Ambulance Control in Ballyshannon all weekend and nothing was said!

As above the implementation has been put on hold

19hz

adam88 wrote: »

As above the implementation has been put on hold

Yup its been put on freeze but as already said above it refers more to voluntaries being TASKED by HSE Control rooms....not the normal trn from an event. I'd imagine this applies to voluntaries in the rural areas that help HSE respond. Think OMAC had an amb in some part of Waterford responding to the occasional call.

Topper7

19hz wrote: »

Think OMAC had an amb in some part of Waterford responding to the occasional call.

CFR responder car in Tramore. Top quality video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiBRW-5o5QA

I thought PHECC where compiling a list of responders, starting with EMTs & then filtering down, that could respond to a incident quickly in their locality? Similiar to the UK responders for the NHS? Hence why PHECC are currently gathering information on where defibs are located around the country (make, model, who has access, etc). Pretty sure I read in the paper round Christmas that they were starting trials soon??? Maybe I missed something

miju

Yes they are to respond not transport and it's plans are fairly well under waythats why you see that responder vehicle is a car and not a 4x4 with stretcher or ambulance

Topper7

miju wrote: »

Yes they are to respond not transport

Ah I see, thanks! Out of curiousty do you know what stage are those plans at? Have trial runs been carried out, problems etc?

emtdoozer

just curious as to what is a cen compliant ambulance?

miju

emtdoozer wrote: »

just curious as to what is a cen compliant ambulance?

Google is your friend ;);););)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEN_1789

Medic475

So that's it, as and from 9 this morning all voluntary Ambulances are grounded! There's a list of very minor injuries for which you can transport, other than that you have to ring Ambulance Control, let them know if you have a casualty, whats wrong with them and then they make the decision whether you transport or not.
Will be a shame if a Cardiac Arrest occurs at an event and there a few EMT's/Responders and Drivers on an Ambulance and then to be told to wait for a HSE Ambulance!!

emtdoozer

I really hope nothing major happens anyone this weekend at the many events around the country. The HSE just don't have the fleet or staff to cope with what the Aux services handle across the country. The only people who can be hurt by this are the many patients the aux services treat very week and most in a very efficient and professional manor.

Tango Alpha 51

Medic475 wrote: »

So that's it, as and from 9 this morning all voluntary Ambulances are grounded! There's a list of very minor injuries for which you can transport, other than that you have to ring Ambulance Control, let them know if you have a casualty, whats wrong with them and then they make the decision whether you transport or not.
Will be a shame if a Cardiac Arrest occurs at an event and there a few EMT's/Responders and Drivers on an Ambulance and then to be told to wait for a HSE Ambulance!!

Medic,

We're did you get this from as none of control room staff are aware of it. As I know there is vol ambulances out on dutiies in this area today & none of their senior officers are aware of same?.

sgthighway

Medic475 wrote: »

So that's it, as and from 9 this morning all voluntary Ambulances are grounded! There's a list of very minor injuries for which you can transport, other than that you have to ring Ambulance Control, let them know if you have a casualty, whats wrong with them and then they make the decision whether you transport or not.
Will be a shame if a Cardiac Arrest occurs at an event and there a few EMT's/Responders and Drivers on an Ambulance and then to be told to wait for a HSE Ambulance!!

Where did you here this?
Re: Cardiac Arrest - AFAIK it is protocal for ALS to be contacted. ALS or Ambulance Control will make the decision for you to wait for ALS or Load and Go. I'm open to correction.

Still reckon this won't work.

TylerIE

adam88 wrote: »

Where did you hear this from. Hse and phecc agreed to postpone this direction until the heads of the vols had been properlm consulted. I seen the email wit my own two eyes

And postponement was withdrawn earlier this week.

Some of the vols have issued their own directives since.

vidar

Medic475 wrote: »

So that's it, as and from 9 this morning all voluntary Ambulances are grounded! There's a list of very minor injuries for which you can transport, other than that you have to ring Ambulance Control, let them know if you have a casualty, whats wrong with them and then they make the decision whether you transport or not.
Will be a shame if a Cardiac Arrest occurs at an event and there a few EMT's/Responders and Drivers on an Ambulance and then to be told to wait for a HSE Ambulance!!

Only one of the four vols/aux ambulance service have grounded their fleet. This was decision was taken internally. The other vols are AFAIK still operating as normal.

ectoraige

vidar wrote: »

Only one of the four vols/aux ambulance service have grounded their fleet. This was decision was taken internally. The other vols are AFAIK still operating as normal.

Which one? CD?

How often do vols transport to hospital? Would some do it more than others?

I wonder how long before the calls to Joe Duffy.. "My little Johnny was roarin' so he was, and they wouldn't take him to the hopstipal, it's a disgrace Joe..."

vidar

The amount of transports required are random, you could go a good few duties without having one and then get 4/5 on the one duty. Basically transported as needed

Medic475

Well lads, just back from duty this minute. Yeah the CD Officer had it, she got the email yesterday that from 9 this morning there was to be no transports, as the day went on there were phone calls to and fro and the latest is CD and another Voluntary are going to carry on as normal untill Monday morning and then there's to be another meeting about it. Word on the street is that it will fall apart within a week or two!

Medic475

sgthighway wrote: »

Where did you here this?
Re: Cardiac Arrest - AFAIK it is protocal for ALS to be contacted. ALS or Ambulance Control will make the decision for you to wait for ALS or Load and Go. I'm open to correction.

Still reckon this won't work.

Yeah sure enough, there would be enough Volunteers for one to ring Control (while others are loading/providing treatment/driving) and let them know and then rendesvous with an AP or HSE Ambulance.

Medic475

ectoraige wrote: »

Which one? CD?

How often do vols transport to hospital? Would some do it more than others?

I wonder how long before the calls to Joe Duffy.. "My little Johnny was roarin' so he was, and they wouldn't take him to the hopstipal, it's a disgrace Joe..."

We do quite a bit. Just this evening we had a shoulder dislocation at a tag rugby match!

ectoraige

Medic475 wrote: »

We do quite a bit. Just this evening we had a shoulder dislocation at a tag rugby match!

Hah, so did we! Unless tag rugby gets lots of shoulder dislocations, guess that's means I know who you are, D, right?

I'm just wondering what percentage of transports are from vols, compared to the HSE. I imagine it's pretty low and that the HSE don't see the workload being a problem. Is it just Omega codes that the vols are allowed transport, assuming they have the two EMTs?

coolmoose

A lot of mis-information as per usual, PHECC have clarified this am

http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/Home%20Page/Event%20Ambulance%20Cover%20-%20Clarification%20Statement%2022.06.12.pdf

donalgeraghty

Ya i heard cd have to ring ambulance control to see if they can transport. Is any of the other vol/aux doing this ?

Whats the idea of stopping voluntaries transporting injured people to hospital ?