Piseogs

dmcronin

I'm sure this is a more appropriate area for this rather than Paranormal.

Has it died out or is it still going on? Is/was it a purely rural thing or did it ever get into urban areas?

cormacocomhrai

Define pisreog. In my experience people in the West of Ireland tend to me more superstitious than the rest of the country. I would say that I've met very superstitious people from inner city Dublin.

It's broadly died out but most people still wouldn't damage a fairy fort. An old woman in Galway is supposed to have been asked one time by an anthropologist "Do you believe in fairies?" Answer: "No but they're there anyway."
People who still rely on chance fishermen, sports people etc. tend to be much more superstitious than other people. Older fishermen would be aware of a lot of the old beliefs. Whether or not they fully believe or disbelieve them is another question.

Dostoevsky

I'm not into piseoga at all - but I'm not going to tempt things by walking under a ladder! Would anybody else?

I guarantee if you left a ladder on a street and recorded people walking by loads of ostensibly unsuperstitious people would go around it rather than walk under it. Last week some 15 of us were walking down a street and all of us went around that ladder without giving it much thought.

Piseoga are much more alive in rural areas, where béaloideas is naturally stronger. There are urban exceptions, such as the plethora of piseoga connected with the Hellfire club in Dublin. North Dublin/Fingal, which is still wonderfully rural, also has many legends if not piseoga. There are, if you look for them, piseoga linked to almost every castle in the Dublin area. Piseoga connected with the fairy tree are still very strong across Ireland, particularly the refusal of workmen to remove one for fear of consequences. Also, respect for fairy forts generally and on Oíche Shamhna in particular would have been very well known in my youth. I remember one story in particular of a boy who was playing hurling and he hit the sliothar into a fairy fort by accident, went in to get it and never came back. That fascinated me on the hearing of it as a gasúr.

Generally, though, most of us don't seem to be passing on our local lore even though kids absolutely love hearing such things. Why be fascinated with your surroundings and the haunted house down the road when you have the x-box!

dmcronin

Apologies for being not more specific. 'Piseog' as in witchcraft-like practices to (usually) bring harm to others rather than superstition in general. i.e. placing eggs in hay and that sort of thing. Typically went on in rural areas, the effects supposedly being sickness/loss of livestock, bad health and death in extreme cases.

Tabnabs

I don't mean to drag the thread off topic, but I have just finished reading Malachi Horan Remembers by Dr George A Little (first printed in 1945).

The book contains many examples of piseogs (both superstitions and "witchcraft") that belonged to the mountain areas of south west Dublin and over the border into Wicklow. I am amused by the description of the Hellfire Club as urban, stand at the top of Montpelier hill and turn you back from the city (far in the distance) and it's as rural and desolate a location as any in Ireland. It's difficult in 2012 to understand just how small Dublin was and how rural the hinterlands were.

Anyway, if you're from Dublin and know the areas of Bohernabreena, Seechon, Saggart etc. then you will find this little book absolutely fascinating and very eye opening.

Fuinseog

dmcronin wrote: »

Apologies for being not more specific. 'Piseog' as in witchcraft-like practices to (usually) bring harm to others rather than superstition in general. i.e. placing eggs in hay and that sort of thing. Typically went on in rural areas, the effects supposedly being sickness/loss of livestock, bad health and death in extreme cases.

its rare for people to place curses these days. You can of course wish misfortune on someone. You have the mallacht in Irish, which again is used sparingly- things like 'I wish you a death by drowning' to 'may your penis explode'.

dubhthach

Well according to my mother there were still people carrying on like this in North Clare in the 1950's/60's. Eggs among the new potatoes/hay. Pig's head on someones door etc.

Then again it is Biddy Early country after all

dmcronin

I had heard one method was make a pinhole in an egg, rub egg to a stillborn calf and hide eggs in someone else's hay. When the eggs were broken when the hay was being fed to cattle that was supposed to spread stillbirths through the herd.

Other ones involved parts of animals or whole dead animals (i.e. calves being more easily transportable) being left on neighbours' lands. Possibly some sort of primitive germ warfare?? Widowed or spinster women were believed to be the most adept practitioners.

Also there are 'cursing stones', but none local to me afaik.

riffmongous

dubhthach wrote: »

Well according to my mother there were still people carrying on like this in North Clare in the 1950's/60's. Eggs among the new potatoes/hay. Pig's head on someones door etc.

Then again it is Biddy Early country after all

I remember that happening in my villages about 10 years ago, I just thought at the time the point of it was to do something disgusting, does it have a deeper significance dubhthach?

slowburner

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

Define pisreog.

I would say pisreóg too, but I see everyone else uses piseóg.

Fuinseog

slowburner wrote: »

I would say pisreóg too, but I see everyone else uses piseóg.

ni doigh liom go bhfuil fada ar an o. is feidir leat pisreog no piseog a ra.

bron orm nach bhfuil aon sine fada le fail ar mo riomhaire.

dubhthach

PotaFocal has both Piseog and Pisreog. As does Dineen, main explanation under Piseog, with the entry for Pisreog saying to look at entry for Piseog.

http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/index.php?find_simple=Irish
(Page 843 and 844). Perhaps it's a case of dialectical difference?

cormacocomhrai

Don't forget the difficulty the Galway-Limerick motorway had because of this fairy tree near Crusheen in Co. Clare.

Somebody mentioned cursing there. Mayday was supposed to have been the best fay of the year for cursing something.

A trace of superstition is found in some expressions that we use: touch wood, itchy feet, I'll kiss it better. Also saying "God bless him" or "Bail ó Dhia air" after a compliment is a product of a fear of the evil eye.

Pisreog/Piseog is down to dialect.

2rkehij30qtza5

Putting the infant of Prague outside to get good weather the following day, burying a headless St. Joseph upside down in your garden if trying to sell your property, looking in the mirror at midnight and you'll see the banshee..just a few I can think of from my neck of the woods.

cormacocomhrai

Speaking of the banshee there's one living in a handball alley down in Limerick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X764d7yCQFs

slowburner

Fuinseog wrote: »

ni doigh liom go bhfuil fada ar an o. is feidir leat pisreog no piseog a ra.

bron orm nach bhfuil aon sine fada le fail ar mo riomhaire.

Maith go leor.

slowburner

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

Also saying "God bless him" or "Bail ó Dhia air" after a compliment is a product of a fear of the evil eye.

If you were doing a job in public view, it was thought that the evil eye was upon you.
It was counteracted by the passer by saying, 'God bless the work'.

Fuinseog

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

Don't forget the difficulty the Galway-Limerick motorway had because of this fairy tree near Crusheen in Co. Clare.

Somebody mentioned cursing there. Mayday was supposed to have been the best fay of the year for cursing something.

A trace of superstition is found in some expressions that we use: touch wood, itchy feet, I'll kiss it better. Also saying "God bless him" or "Bail ó Dhia air" after a compliment is a product of a fear of the evil eye.

Pisreog/Piseog is down to dialect.

a lot of folks are wary to talk about a piseog for fear of ridicule. its still frowned upon to take a branch from a hawthorn indoors.

Fuinseog

Bruce Prickly Pickax wrote: »

Putting the infant of Prague outside to get good weather the following day, burying a headless St. Joseph upside down in your garden if trying to sell your property, looking in the mirror at midnight and you'll see the banshee..just a few I can think of from my neck of the woods.

the child of Prague goes under the hedge the day of the wedding. neighbours light bonfires after the wedding ceremony.

cormacocomhrai

Fuinseog wrote: »

a lot of folks are wary to talk about a piseog for fear of ridicule. its still frowned upon to take a branch from a hawthorn indoors.

What kind of irresponsible lunatic would bring a whitethorn branch into their house?

Seeing as somebody mentioned weddings, off topic, but am I the only one here to have strawboys at their wedding?

slowburner

Any idea why Whitethorn is called white, and Blackthorn is called black when both produce white flowers?

byhookorbycrook

Ok, a run through some of my 90 year old mammy's more common piseóga:
If you meet a funeral you must turn and walk three steps with it.
If a bee keeper dies, the bees must be told or the hive will swarm away elsewhere.
At midnight on Christmas Eve all animals have the power of speech but it is bad luck to try to hear them
If someone dies, the clock must be stopped at the hour of the passing, all mirrors in the house covered and the window of the room where the death occured opened so that the soul can escape.
If some one dies between the 8th of Dec and St Stephen's day, they go straight to heaven. This is known as "Cuireadh Na Nollag", literally the Christmas invitation.
Snowdrops brought into the house cause bad luck.
A robin coming into a house is a prediction of death.

Fuinseog

Niall Mac Coitir has two books out, one on plants and one on trees and their folkloric associations. well worth reading.

Fuinseog

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ok, a run through some of my 90 year old mammy's more common piseóga:
If you meet a funeral you must turn and walk three steps with it.
If a bee keeper dies, the bees must be told or the hive will swarm away elsewhere.
At midnight on Christmas Eve all animals have the power of speech but it is bad luck to try to hear them
If someone dies, the clock must be stopped at the hour of the passing, all mirrors in the house covered and the window of the room where the death occured opened so that the soul can escape.
If some one dies between the 8th of Dec and St Stephen's day, they go straight to heaven. This is known as "Cuireadh Na Nollag", literally the Christmas invitation.
Snowdrops brought into the house cause bad luck.
A robin coming into a house is a prediction of death.

a funeral should always take the longest route to the graveyard.

cormacocomhrai

Fuinseog wrote: »

a funeral should always take the longest route to the graveyard.

I've also heard that the family should take a different route back in case the ghost follows them. To be fair the pisreogs can be very localised as well.

The robin is a common one, also knocking on the wall of a house or a picture falling of a wall both signify death. It was also said about certain people that they would "see" somebody before they died. Widowers and widows were also said to dream about their lost partners before they died themselves, as in the spouse was coming for them.

Fuinseog

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

I've also heard that the family should take a different route back in case the ghost follows them. To be fair the pisreogs can be very localised as well.

The robin is a common one, also knocking on the wall of a house or a picture falling of a wall both signify death. It was also said about certain people that they would "see" somebody before they died. Widowers and widows were also said to dream about their lost partners before they died themselves, as in the spouse was coming for them.

the elderly speak of the coiste bodhar coming to get them.

Fuinseog

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

I've also heard that the family should take a different route back in case the ghost follows them. To be fair the pisreogs can be very localised as well.

The robin is a common one, also knocking on the wall of a house or a picture falling of a wall both signify death. It was also said about certain people that they would "see" somebody before they died. Widowers and widows were also said to dream about their lost partners before they died themselves, as in the spouse was coming for them.

the elderly speak of the coiste bodhar coming to get them.


there is also something about carrying a coffin out of the house head or feet first so that the spirit cannot go back into the house.

ciarriaithuaidh

Lets cut to the chase here...who has heard the Banshee? :eek:

slowburner

I was in a house the other day where the elderly owner stopped me from exiting the house through a different door to the one I had entered.
On the way out, she asked me to pick up a glove that she had dropped a few days previously - no way was she going to pick it up.

When making butter, it was the custom to stick a knob of it to the inside of the door frame.

There seems to be a fair bit of superstition attached to thresholds.

Fuinseog

slowburner wrote: »

I was in a house the other day where the elderly owner stopped me from exiting the house through a different door to the one I had entered.
On the way out, she asked me to pick up a glove that she had dropped a few days previously - no way was she going to pick it up.

When making butter, it was the custom to stick a knob of it to the inside of the door frame.

There seems to be a fair bit of superstition attached to thresholds.

its not an Irish piseog but Eastern Europeans will never shake hands at the threshold.

Fuinseog

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Lets cut to the chase here...who has heard the Banshee? :eek:

The coiste bodhar is not quite the banshee. I heard about it from a relative who worked in a nursing home and watched a lot of people die.They come out with some strange things before they pass on and one is that they can see a coach coming to pick them up.

There is a thread on the banshee in the mythology section.

cormacocomhrai

Fuinseog wrote: »

The coiste bodhar is not quite the banshee. I heard about it from a relative who worked in a nursing home and watched a lot of people die.They come out with some strange things before they pass on and one is that they can see a coach coming to pick them up.

There is a thread on the banshee in the mythology section.

You can trick the cóiste bodhar by turning your coat inside out. It won't recognise you and will pass you. Might prove useful to someone.

My grandmother was reputed to have heard the banshee. Wasn't superstitious by the standards of the time. She was young and heard crying. Her brother, a seminarian or a priest, also heard it, called her indoors, blessed himself and siad nothing about it. A lad who was staying with them drowned later than evening.
Anybody who's been out late and night and heard a vixen in heat will know what the banshee probably was.

Fuinseog

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

You can trick the cóiste bodhar by turning your coat inside out. It won't recognise you and will pass you. Might prove useful to someone.

My grandmother was reputed to have heard the banshee. Wasn't superstitious by the standards of the time. She was young and heard crying. Her brother, a seminarian or a priest, also heard it, called her indoors, blessed himself and siad nothing about it. A lad who was staying with them drowned later than evening.
Anybody who's been out late and night and heard a vixen in heat will know what the banshee probably was.

You seem to be taking the piss, which is exactly why folks are reluctant to talk about folk beliefs. for you it might seem like Darby O Gill. for some folks these things are taken seriously and not to be mocked.

jonniebgood1

Fuinseog wrote: »

You seem to be taking the piss, which is exactly why folks are reluctant to talk about folk beliefs. for you it might seem like Darby O Gill. for some folks these things are taken seriously and not to be mocked.

Its hardly taking the piss to suggest that the noise people take to be a banshee may be a fox or some other type of nocturnal animal. I had heard the fox suggested by people many times before as the the real source for the banshee squeal. I know of several older people who swear by the banshee and dread hearing the squeal.

cormacocomhrai

Fuinseog wrote: »

You seem to be taking the piss, which is exactly why folks are reluctant to talk about folk beliefs. for you it might seem like Darby O Gill. for some folks these things are taken seriously and not to be mocked.

It reflects well on you that you don't like to see people mocked. That's an admirable characteristic. But to be fair I'm one of the people who contributed the most to this thread.

Not taking the piss at all with the comment about the fox. If you'd ever heard the howling of a vixen in heat you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. There are different sounds but one of them sounds like a child crying except you know that it's not human. Hear that on a road at 2am and you'd well believe in the Banshee. Difference was I knew what I was hearing. As for the general issue of knowing when someone close to you was going to die, well that's a different issues. I do believe in some kind of instict, something that science hasn't explained yet, but will. Culturally, in Ireland, I could see that in certain cases it might take the form of the Banshee. I'd have no issue with that.

I've known people, perfectly intelligent people, that would freeze up if some passed a positive compliment without saying "Bail ó Dhia air", that saw a horse being cured of the evil eye, who genuinely believed their father saw someone turn into a hare, who felt that a poltergeist pushed them, who collapsed because of the hungry grass.
A dream possibly saved my father's life once.

For me superstitions have three different types 1. a garbled version of a religious belief. 2.When they saw something occurring but misinterpreted the reasons for it, like putting two and two together and getting 6 3.Ones that, of themselves, don't make any sense, some are the product of recent creation. But for me the reasons why they exist are the most important thing about supersitions. They existed for people who had little or no control over their lives. Like a modern surgeon who needs to feel that he did everything he could to protect a patient it was and is the same for a mother who'll bury half of her children before adulthood. People died so suddenly long ago that there's no doubt that for many people superstitions gave a pyschological release from any feelings of guilt that they might have had. Once you obeyed all the rules you were able to say "it wasn't my fault". Nothing stupid about that at all, it's part of the grief process etc. The human condition will be exactly the same in a thousand years. It's easy to be flippant about superstitions but take any of us out of the comfort zone and we'd all be superstitious. So while individual superstitions are often ridiculous the reasons for their existence aren't.

Do I believe in fairies? No, but I wouldn't build my house on a fairy path. For the reason that in the event of a disaster befalling the family who knows how that would play on a grief-stricken mind.

Would I get nervous if a robin flew into my house? you bet

I dreamed once that I died in April 2034. Do I believe it now? Of course I don't. Don't be ridiculous. Will I be nervous for that month? Of course I will.

cormacocomhrai

Incidentally these folk believes and superstitions are an integral part of our culture and should be remembered regardless of what people think of them. It irritates me to see the native beliefs and customs of the fairies being replaced by some Anglo-American TV version of Tinkerbell.

Rasheed

I love this kind of thing, especially stories about Biddie Earley etc.

Was told as a child never to pick up food that fell to the floor, it was a fairy knocking it too the ground, possibly to also stop picking up infection!

Also when building a house, to put our stones at the four corners of where the house will stand. If the stones have been disturbed in anyway, change plan as you are on a fairy path!

Also believe in widows curses especially. Local legend has it that a widows curse was put on a road in the neighbouring parish that there would be no decendents to carry on family names on the road after the present generation died, if you get me. Same curse came through, there is not one living direct decendent on the road since that generation.

I would never ever mess with a fairy fort or fairy tree. Don't find it hocus pocus, I'm perfectly rational but some thing should be left alone.

cormacocomhrai

Rasheed wrote: »

I love this kind of thing, especially stories about Biddie Earley etc.

It's part of the famiily lore that Biddy cured a cow belonging to one of my ancestors.

byhookorbycrook

My mother swears that the Lord Waterfords were cursed and that 7 generations would not die in their own beds.

She was raised by the sea and always says that people shuold not swim in the sea before Whit weekend, as the sea will claim a victim per parish. (Down to cold water, more than anything else.)

Rasheed

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

It's part of the famiily lore that Biddy cured a cow belonging to one of my ancestors.

Oh deadly! Whatever else about her and her magic bottle, she was a mighty woman!

Rasheed

Isn't it said that fairies are responsible for Sean Quinn losing the fortune? I'd post the link but I don't know how to do it, I'm not great on computers! Apparently when he was building a new hotel he messed up a tomb.


Tuesday November 22 2011
HE was once Ireland's richest man, with a fortune of €4.7bn, before his huge gamble on Anglo Irish Bank shares toppled him into bankruptcy.

But for some in his heartland on the Cavan/Fermanagh border, the downfall of Sean Quinn has more to do with the wrath of the fairies than risky business moves.

According to these locals, it was the decision to move a megalithic burial tomb 20 years ago which led to the fall of his cement, hotels, and insurance empire.

The Aughrim Wedge Tomb stood for 4,000 years in the townland after which it is named, two miles outside Ballyconnell, Co Cavan.

But when it got in the way of the expansion of a massive quarry for Quinn Concrete in 1992, permission was granted by the Office of Public Works to move it.

Following a full excavation of the site, it was moved -- stone by stone -- and relocated in the grounds of Mr Quinn's Slieve Russell Hotel on the other side of the village.

Mr Quinn has since lost the cement works, the hotel, a raft of other businesses and his multi-billion euro fortune. According to bankruptcy documents, he now claims to have just €11,000 in the bank.

Some locals have linked the movement of the tomb to Mr Quinn's financial woes.

"I'm a big supporter of Sean Quinn because of what he has done for this area but that tomb should never have been moved," said publican Toirbhealach Lyons, the owner of Molly Maguire's pub in Ballyconnell.

"There would be a lot of people who would think you could never have any luck after moving an ancient tombstone."

Such superstitions are common and widely believed according to University of Ulster folklore expert Seamus MacFlionn.

"Cavan is full of ancient sites like these and therefore many people there would be more superstitious about moving any ancient rath, tomb or fairy tree," he said.

"People do genuinely believe that to do so brings bad luck. It's part of our ancient Irish history," he added.

However, not everyone in the area subscribes to the view that the movement of the tomb brought Mr Quinn his bad luck. One sceptic is Ballyconnell butcher Gerard Crowe, "It's a load of auld rubbish. . . Simple as that," he said.

- Greg Harkin

Irish Independent

cormacocomhrai

Rasheed wrote: »

Oh deadly! Whatever else about her and her magic bottle, she was a mighty woman!

She was a mighty woman for the men according to the folklore. There was a story that I heard about both Biddy and a witch in Connemara about a priest questioning their power. "Do you see that crow Father?" and the crow drops dead.
Biddy was supposed to have been insulted once by a priest whose horse then refused to move for him until he dismounted and went back and apologised to Biddy.

cormacocomhrai

The Hellfire club in the Dublin mountains was supposed to have been built on an ancient burial site. Your Quinn story put it into my head.

Three more family ones. My grandfather's family clearly saw a house on fire from the window of their own house. They knew well that there was no house there. He was also a guard later. While on duty in Cavan he heard collapsing stones, said to be a rememberence of evictions.

The priest I mentioned in the story of the banshee seems to have attracted something other wordly. He saw a friar that was supposed to have been killed in Cromwellian times. Another time he was home from Maynooth and passed a neighbour on a road. He complained about the neighbour's unfriendliness because of not having saluted him. The neighbour had been dead for months.

Rasheed

Wasn't 3 husbands she out lived? A feat in itself!
Travellers curses held plenty of weight around here too.
My granny would never bad mouth a traveller and always helped them if they called looking for donations of clothes or food.

Any other superstitions that people know?

Rasheed

I happen to hold faith in the animal ones also such as killing a Robin will bring bad luck for life, if the first born lamb is a black lamb, someone in the house will die before the year is out.
Animals are so perceptive they are bound to sense more then we can.

cormacocomhrai

The last of the husbands was only about half her age. I've about a million of the pisreogs but I think that I'm starting to take over the thread so I'll leave it for tonight.

All these things were to protect children from being abducted by fairies
keep iron in a baby's cot, dress boys up like girls (they wanted boys), keep dirty water in the house or put a drop of urine on the child's forehead (fairies were extremely clean).

Blackspot on the tongue-telling lies
itchy knuckles or nose-you'll be fighting
itchy palms-you'll receive money.

McDonaghs in Connemara aren't supposed to wear the colour green.

don't put new shoes up on a table.

If a horse freezes look between his ears and you'll see a ghost. Quite a common idea that, even today, that animals are more sensitive to ghosts than humans.

A child born with the caipín an tsonais (the call in Hiberno-English) will be lucky and happy.

Just for starters

Maudi

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Lets cut to the chase here...who has heard the Banshee? :eek:

twice.

Rasheed

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

The last of the husbands was only about half her age. I've about a million of the pisreogs but I think that I'm starting to take over the thread so I'll leave it for tonight.

All these things were to protect children from being abducted by fairies
keep iron in a baby's cot, dress boys up like girls (they wanted boys), keep dirty water in the house or put a drop of urine on the child's forehead (fairies were extremely clean).

Blackspot on the tongue-telling lies
itchy knuckles or nose-you'll be fighting
itchy palms-you'll receive money.

McDonaghs in Connemara aren't supposed to wear the colour green.

don't put new shoes up on a table.

If a horse freezes look between his ears and you'll see a ghost. Quite a common idea that, even today, that animals are more sensitive to ghosts than humans.

A child born with the caipín an tsonais (the call in Hiberno-English) will be lucky and happy.

Just for starters

Is that the kind of a 'hood' that some babies are born with? Thanks for answering me, it's very interesting so I for one not mind if you take over the thread a bit!

cormacocomhrai

Maudi wrote: »

twice.

Under what circumstances if you don't mind me asking?

Rasheed

Maudi wrote: »

twice.

Really? Is it in your family, the banshee I mean? Did somebody die?

Maudi

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

The last of the husbands was only about half her age. I've about a million of the pisreogs but I think that I'm starting to take over the thread so I'll leave it for tonight.

All these things were to protect children from being abducted by fairies
keep iron in a baby's cot, dress boys up like girls (they wanted boys), keep dirty water in the house or put a drop of urine on the child's forehead (fairies were extremely clean).

Blackspot on the tongue-telling lies
itchy knuckles or nose-you'll be fighting
itchy palms-you'll receive money.

McDonaghs in Connemara aren't supposed to wear the colour green.

don't put new shoes up on a table.

If a horse freezes look between his ears and you'll see a ghost. Quite a common idea that, even today, that animals are more sensitive to ghosts than humans.

A child born with the caipín an tsonais (the call in Hiberno-English) will be lucky and happy.

Just for starters

its very rare the 'caul' and apparently very rare to be born with one..they were valued by sailors for some reason...both my parents were born with a caul..my mother still has hers preserved on paper..