Worst crime committed by a main character?

Indricotherium

Picards attempted genocide of the Borg?

Janeways breaking of the temporal prime directive and apparently successful genocide of the Borg?

Picards habitual disregard for the prime directive?

Worfs extra judicial murder of Duras?

Janeway erasing the Doctors memory?

Picards banishing of the moriarty hologram to the void of the ships memory banks?

Avery Brooks acting?:)

Any other suggestions?

norrie rugger

Janeway killing Tuvix

Kiith

Probably Sisko's involvement with tricking the Romulans into the war with the Dominion. I know it served the greater good, and saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and even regardless of the fact that the Dominion probably would have attacked the Romulans after defeating the Federation/Klingons, it was still totally against the rules.

Made for some fantastic viewing though

Indricotherium

Kiith wrote: »

Probably Sisko's involvement with tricking the Romulans into the war with the Dominion. I know it served the greater good, and saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and even regardless of the fact that the Dominion probably would have attacked the Romulans after defeating the Federation/Klingons, it was still totally against the rules.

Made for some fantastic viewing though

I don't think it's up there with genocide though. Even if the Borg are bad guys.

I should add that it opens a wider debate on the morals of the federation, and star fleet as janeway was apparently promoted for her actions.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Picards attempted genocide of the Borg?

He never went through with it though. It was merely a plan, & it showed that despite how much Picard was hurt by the Borg, he didn't let himself down.

Janeways breaking of the temporal prime directive and apparently successful genocide of the Borg?

How was it she broke the Temporal PD again? Genocide of the Borg...hmm. Were they really destroyed? Also, when you've tried all other avenues to resolve a conflict, war remains but the last. By their very nature, it's always going to me an us against them scenario with the borg. Also, can they even be considered sentient any differently than a computer can be?

Picards habitual disregard for the prime directive?

Examples please

Worfs extra judicial murder of Duras?

Far from a crime in Klingon society, it would have actually been expected of Worf to do this. Anything less, & be considered weak.

Janeway erasing the Doctors memory?

Tough one this. A crime? No. Wrong? Yes.

Picards banishing of the moriarty hologram to the void of the ships memory banks?

Not at all, given the constraints...it was the perfect solution.

Avery Brooks acting?:)

Lol, certainly not.

Any other suggestions?

I'd probably second the killing of Tuvix. As much as I agree with the decision, I wouldn't have been able to make the call on it. That was one tough ass situation, & morally, it was the Kobayashi Maru.

Indricotherium

Janeway travelled back in time 30 odd years and used technology from the future to return voyager home 18 years earlier than it should have and in the process attempt the destruction of an entire civilisation / society / race.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Janeway travelled back in time 30 odd years and used technology from the future to return voyager home 18 years earlier than it should have and in the process attempt the destruction of an entire civilisation / society / race.

Who's to say that wasn't how it was meant to be anyway?

Also as I mentioned, I'm not sure you can consider the Borg a society or race, at least, not any differently to a virus etc

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

ive always wondered where the hell the federation timecops were during all this

that was star trek wasn't it?

Myrddin

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

ive always wondered where the hell the federation timecops were during all this

that was star trek wasn't it?

Yeah Sisko had a visit from Temporal Investigations during the Trials & Tribbleations episode.

Goldstein

I'm going with Riker's trombone playing.

Indricotherium wrote: »

Janeways breaking of the temporal prime directive and apparently successful genocide of the Borg?

That was nowhere near successful Just enough to bring a little chaos to perfection. The Borg were only getting started.

Indricotherium wrote: »

Janeway erasing the Doctors memory?

I assume this is about Latent Image? (A brilliantly written episode about a devious moral dilemma and one of my favourite episodes of any incarnation of Trek. Picardo is outstanding in it). Janeway did that to save him, repeatedly, until he could come to terms with the who lives/who dies decision that had been forced upon him.


In Twilight T’Pol uses a docked Xindi ship to ram another nearby ship but extensively damages one of Enterprise’s warp necelles in the process (I thought it was pretty badass move myself). However, as a result Enterprise can’t get back in time to save Earth, Earth is destroyed. Not a crime as such but not her best day either.

Indricotherium

Picard ignores the prime directive when it suits him, be it rescuing a protege from facing the music for committing a crime, interfering with the Klingon succession or performing espionage on the cardassians.

It's a bit of a trend in the federation on general. Its own rules and morals are only followed to a point and when they are not restrictive to the federations goals.

The insurrection incident

The power grab by starfleet in ds9

Section 31

Sisko and the Romulans.

Janeways time travelling exploits

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Picard ignores the prime directive when it suits him, be it rescuing a protege from facing the music for committing a crime, interfering with the Klingon succession or performing espionage on the cardassians.

I'm long overdue a TNG rewatch, can you tell me what context these examples are in? I'm sure there's always a greater good to any decision by Picard. The Prime Directive is a rigid tool used in a general sense. It cannot bend to situations in which the right decision is to break the directive itself.

It's a bit of a trend in the federation USA on general. Its own rules and morals are only followed to a point and when they are not restrictive to the federations governments goals.

Fyp

The insurrection incident

A problem created by one Federation member, & fixed by another.

The power grab by starfleet in ds9

Power grab? Starfleet were guests of the Bajoran Provision Government. There was no power grab.

Section 31

A rogue splinter group of Starfleet

Sisko and the Romulans

Sisko showed the Romulans a fake Dominion recording in the hopes they would see sense & join the war. It failed. It was Garak, who killed the Romulan Senator, causing the Romulans to join the war.

Janeways time travelling exploits

One woman can't reflect the morals of an interplanetary society though

Indricotherium

Sisko set that plan in motion and is responsible for the unexpected consequences.

The doctrine of common design extends to garaks solo run as i think you could probably argue that sisko had tacitly agreed to it by setting the whole thing in motion.

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

Picard ignores the prime directive when it suits him, be it rescuing a protege from facing the music for committing a crime, interfering with the Klingon succession or performing espionage on the cardassians.

I'm long overdue a TNG rewatch, can you tell me what context these examples are in? I'm sure there's always a greater good to any decision by Picard. The Prime Directive is a rigid tool used in a general sense. It cannot bend to situations in which the right decision is to break the directive itself.

It's a bit of a trend in the federation USA on general. Its own rules and morals are only followed to a point and when they are not restrictive to the federations governments goals.

Fyp

The insurrection incident

A problem created by one Federation member, & fixed by another.

The power grab by starfleet in ds9

Power grab? Starfleet were guests of the Bajoran Provision Government. There was no power grab.

Section 31

A rogue splinter group of Starfleet

Sisko and the Romulans

Sisko showed the Romulans a fake Dominion recording in the hopes they would see sense & join the war. It failed. It was Garak, who killed the Romulan Senator, causing the Romulans to join the war.

Janeways time travelling exploits

One woman can't reflect the morals of an interplanetary society though

Janeway is promoted for her exploits, that can be read as approval at a high level by the federation.

I there was significant political or hierarchical criticism of her actions I can't see her being made a flag officer.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Sisko set that plan in motion and is responsible for the unexpected consequences.

The doctrine of common design extends to garaks solo run as i think you could probably argue that sisko had tacitly agreed to it by setting the whole thing in motion.

He's responsible no doubt, but was his plan murder as is being made out? No. He almost went to town on Garak after the senator was killed. But...

"I can, live with it"

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

Sisko set that plan in motion and is responsible for the unexpected consequences.

The doctrine of common design extends to garaks solo run as i think you could probably argue that sisko had tacitly agreed to it by setting the whole thing in motion.

He's responsible no doubt, but was his plan murder as is being made out? No. He almost went to town on Garak after the senator was killed. But...

"I can, live with it"

His aim was do do what it takes to get the Romulans into his war and he involved garak to do his dirty work.

He didn't speak the order but he is involved in the conspiracy nonetheless.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

His aim was do do what it takes to get the Romulans into his war and he involved garak to do his dirty work.

He didn't speak the order but he is involved in the conspiracy nonetheless.

His only crime per se, was the fraudulent holosuite showing. I agree he's responsible as much as Garak for the death of the senator...but I think given the choice he'd have walked away rather than commit murder. Indirectly responsible for murder I'd call it.

Great thread btw :cool:

IvySlayer

Seven transporting the member of 8472 to the Hirogen ship. Always feel sad about that

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

This is dangerous reasoning. It's been used to terrible effect in the real world.

But the 'individuals' that make up the collective, are but mindless drones. They receive & send instructions, they do not think or reason. There is no sentience present, & are much more like a computer virus than a society.

It's only when freed of the collective, do drones begin to regain some of what they lost...but as Borg? No, I don't think it's possible to commit genocide against them.

How is it used to terrible effect in the real world? Poisoning ant hills? Avast? There's nothing like this scenario in the real world, genocide is committed against people...not machines.

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

This is dangerous reasoning. It's been used to terrible effect in the real world.

But the 'individuals' that make up the collective, are but mindless drones. They receive & send instructions, they do not think or reason. There is no sentience present, & are much more like a computer virus than a society.

It's only when freed of the collective, do drones begin to regain some of what they lost...but as Borg? No, I don't think it's possible to commit genocide against them.

How is it used to terrible effect in the real world? Poisoning ant hills? Avast? There's nothing like this scenario in the real world, genocide is committed against people...not machines.

I'm sure the Borg consider their right to existence at least equal to the rest of the galaxy. History is full of examples of one culture deciding that another is less worthy of existence and deciding to wipe them out.

Their mission is to bring the entire galaxy together in one collective. Ending conflict and strife.

And as seven has informed us, offer a form of eternal life to its drones.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

I'm sure the Borg consider their right to existence at least equal to the rest of the galaxy

That's just it though, they don't consider anything. They simply operate on basic precepts...acquire technology, assimilate, attack, defense, regenerate etc. There's no free will, or desire. They're very much like an insect hive mind.

History is full of examples of one culture deciding that another is less worthy of existence and deciding to wipe them out

Agreed, but out of all the races in Trek, the Borg are the only one I'm not sure can be considered a culture.

Their mission is to bring the entire galaxy together in one collective. Ending conflict and strife.

Not so much a mission, but an instruction to acquire & assimilate. Don't forget, they ignore lesser developed technology...so they wouldn't be bringing the galaxy together as one collective in that case.

And as seven has informed us, offer a form of eternal life to its drones.

Is this the dreamworld they go into while regenerating? Isn't this a form of mind control or something by the Queen?

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

I'm sure the Borg consider their right to existence at least equal to the rest of the galaxy

That's just it though, they don't consider anything. They simply operate on basic precepts...acquire technology, assimilate, attack, defense, regenerate etc. There's no free will, or desire. They're very much like an insect hive mind.

History is full of examples of one culture deciding that another is less worthy of existence and deciding to wipe them out

Agreed, but out of all the races in Trek, the Borg are the only one I'm not sure can be considered a culture.

Their mission is to bring the entire galaxy together in one collective. Ending conflict and strife.

Not so much a mission, but an instruction to acquire & assimilate. Don't forget, they ignore lesser developed technology...so they wouldn't be bringing the galaxy together as one collective in that case.

And as seven has informed us, offer a form of eternal life to its drones.

Is this the dreamworld they go into while regenerating? Isn't this a form of mind control or something by the Queen?

I think it's that their personalities echo in the collective after they die.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

I think it's that their personalities echo in the collective after they die.

The personalities of the person who was assimilated perhaps, not the drone. Once your assimilated, your dead. If your freed, like Hugh & Seven, you can return to a somewhat normal state - but by then, your not Borg anymore.

nyarlothothep

Indricotherium wrote: »

I don't think it's up there with genocide though. Even if the Borg are bad guys.

I should add that it opens a wider debate on the morals of the federation, and star fleet as janeway was apparently promoted for her actions.

I think that the people writing Janeway were essentially reinforcing assumptions/ways of thinking that are prevalent in the so called "real world" and also reflecting the gung ho mindset among certain quarters of American society. So she acts unethically, rashly, shoots from the hip, is bossy/domineering and ruthless because in the "real world" as defined by "dominant personalities" these kinds of qualities are celebrated despite their attendant negative effects. It's a case of people confusing strength for competency as they so often do. This is why Janeway got promoted. In fact it would seem that despite Picard's doctrinarian protestations to Q that humanity has evolved, the Federation displays all the dysfunctional and primitive behavioural hallmarks of a standard political/corporate culture. This is why Janeway gets rewarded, because she neutralises threats like the Borg despite the ethicacy of how she got this result and this impresses the higher ups. Furthermore it eclipses all her smaller crimes, including torture, murder etc. The logical fallacy of the ends justifying the means is at work here. Of course in TNG the admiralty were shown think in exactly this way. But rather than Archer, Janeway is the personification of George Bush, or the Bush administration itself, full of imperialist swagger and authoritarian hubris. Janeway is a criminal and the greatest criminal in Star Trek as her actions were made even worse by the fact that she gets rewarded at the end for criminality. In this way Voyager very much accurately represents all the glaring flaws of our current primitive and mostly repugnant condition as a species. Janeway is actually worse than the Borg, the Borg don't realise what they do, if anything they want to improve life on the basis that assimilation is the way to go, Janeway however can contemplate on what she does and more often than not choose the wrong path.

Pride Fighter

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Riker abandoning the crew of the Pegasus

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Captain Maxwell killing all those Cardies in the Phoenix

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Myrddin

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Riker abandoning the crew of the Pegasus

Hmm, technically Riker was on the correct side of the law. He sided with his Captain during a mutiny & I don't think any court martial would have broken him for it. Yes the experiments were unethical & illegal, but he was a junior officer.

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

Again it's hard to call this a crime, there was a war.

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Lest we forget, he was being manipulated by Lor. Lor was sending out emotions to Data somehow & caused all that.

Captain Maxwell killing all those Cardies in the Phoenix

Yeah, that was wrong & unlawful. Good example

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Yep, also illegal. Treason

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Morally wrong for sure, but as a non-enlisted officer, can it be classed as a crime?

downwithpeace

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

He describes the horrors of that place a few times and it was war so not necessarily a crime.

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Data's code was being tweaked, no CTRL ALT DEL.

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Yes that's a good example and I would add Hudson to that.

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Wouldn't say so, he was a member of the Maquis and never had Star fleet training so his actions were more of a stab in the back to Janeway and Chakotay.


Ransom's actions on the Equinox must be a contender, using another species, reprogramming the Doctor and experimenting on 7.

Indricotherium

downwithpeace wrote: »

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

He describes the horrors of that place a few times and it was war so not necessarily a crime.

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Data's code was being tweaked, no CTRL ALT DEL.

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Yes that's a good example and I would add Hudson to that.

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Wouldn't say so, he was a member of the Maquis and never had Star fleet training so his actions were more of a stab in the back to Janeway and Chakotay.


Ransom's actions on the Equinox must be a contender, using another species, reprogramming the Doctor and experimenting on 7.

+1

Another example of starfleet abandoning its principles immediately need arises as well.

Ransom is far from a main character though.

Indricotherium

Another that just came to mind is Spock commandeering the enterprise and using it to disobey general order 7 and visit Talos.

Kurn

EnterNow wrote: »

His only crime per se, was the fraudulent holosuite showing. I agree he's responsible as much as Garak for the death of the senator...but I think given the choice he'd have walked away rather than commit murder. Indirectly responsible for murder I'd call it.

Great thread btw :cool:

"It's a fake", gave me goose pimples at the time

monkeypants

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Didn't Sisko poison an entire planet and threaten to do it again just to bring Eddington in? Been years since I watched any form of ST and there are many, many episodes of Enterprise that I missed...

Great thread, Op! :cool: