New clue on Jon parentage. SPOILERS WITHIN.

Gbear

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

I really hope it's not Rhaegar and Lyanna simply because everybody is saying/thinking it is. I've seen the clues and they're compelling and it's hard to not think it now but I just hope it's something out of left-field.

GRRM may have started with the intention of R + L but didn't anticipate so many coming to the conclusion and has a contingency plan. Basically I just don't want 3/4's of people saying "Told you so" :pac:

While I'm here, lets say it is true then why would Jon necessarily side with the Targaryens? He's still half Stark and Dragons seem as dangerous as the Others to my mind.

It might be a question of survival for Westeros.

Either stick with 3 dragons, who'll eventually die, or allow the WW to kill everyone.

There could be a million different outcomes. Maybe the WW aren't really evil? Maybe the dragons are actually worse and allowing a second Valyrian empire would be worse for the world and the WW have come to stop that happening?
I doubt it's just going to be a bog standard good vs evil where Dany, Jon and a third get to mount a dragon and they drive back the evil zombie hoard and then everyone's happy and has lots of babies.


I don't think that learning his parentage would really change Jon. He's a Stark at this stage and there's not much that can change that.

Mr.Prodston

Gbear wrote: »

It might be a question of survival for Westeros.

Either stick with 3 dragons, who'll eventually die, or allow the WW to kill everyone.

There could be a million different outcomes. I don't think that learning his parentage would really change Jon. He's a Stark at this stage and there's not much that can change that.

Oh no doubt any number of things could, and will happen. Agree 100% with all of that.

The one thing that niggles at me though is whether the Others/WW are as evil as everyone thinks. We know nothing about them and their agenda, they killed members of the night's watch but that could have just been a situation of they'll kill us if we don't kill them.

I'm just waiting for the curve ball that Dany and her Dragons are the bad guys

Although what I actually think is a very plausible theory and what I'm going with at the moment is that Jon is who we think he is and is therefore half Ice and half Fire. He will then somehow mediate between the Dragons and the WW so that all of Westeros will not be destroyed by their fight. Like the NW he will not take a side....or something along those lines :pac:

Gbear

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Oh no doubt any number of things could, and will happen. Agree 100% with all of that.

The one thing that niggles at me though is whether the Others/WW are as evil as everyone thinks. We know nothing about them and their agenda, they killed members of the night's watch but that could have just been a situation of they'll kill us if we don't kill them.

I'm just waiting for the curve ball that Dany and her Dragons are the bad guys

Although what I actually think is a very plausible theory and what I'm going with at the moment is that Jon is who we think he is and is therefore half Ice and half Fire. He will then somehow mediate between the Dragons and the WW so that all of Westeros will not be destroyed by their fight. Like the NW he will not take a side....or something along those lines :pac:

Or maybe he'll take a side against both, both being too dangerous to allow to live?

I'm 99% percent certain Jon is Rhaegar & Lyanna's son. Makes too much sense. Why would Lyanna die in a pool of blood otherwise, the Kingsguard hardly murdered her?

Also that scene in Book 5 where Bran (using his psychic tree powers :P) witnesses Ned praying to the heart tree that Catelyn would understand definitely did not have the feel of a guilty man after an affair, but of someone grieving in a difficult situation.

Also Ned is painted as an upstanding righteous man true to his honour throughout all the books, and his bastard is the only 'blemish' to that reputation, yet I feel Ned having an affair to be really out of character, makes more sense that he would lie to protect his sister's son.

I could go on but it really makes too much sense. I think if GRRM writes it differently it'll be because he didn't intend for so many people to work it out and is pissed that they did so he changed it :P

Mickeroo

The dragons can be controlled by people as the targaryans have shown in the past, I don't think they're the same as the WW at all. I'm of the opinion the WW are just what they seem. Just an inhuman force that wants to wipe man off the face of westeros, much like the orcs in LOTR. Both the first men and the children of the forest were in conflict with them so I really can't see them turning out to be good. Admittedly it's not clear how on the side of good the children of the forest are as there's certainly a possiblity their intentions for Bran are shady.

As for R + L = J I think it is the case as it makes so much sense, and tbh I'd be a bit sickened if that turns out not to be true.

Gbear

Mickeroo wrote: »

As for R + L = J I think it is the case as it makes so much sense, and tbh I'd be a bit sickened if that turns out not to be true.

Within the basic theory there's loads of room for manoeuver.

Is he a legitimate son or a bastard?
What relationship did Lyanna and Raegar have?
Why did he spirit her away in the first place?

There's a whole host of details that could change the dynamic of the situation without changing the broad thrust of it.

Mr.Prodston

Mickeroo wrote: »

The dragons can be controlled by people as the targaryans have shown in the past, I don't think they're the same as the WW at all. I'm of the opinion the WW are just what they seem. Just an inhuman force that wants to wipe man off the face of westeros, much like the orcs in LOTR. Both the first men and the children of the forest were in conflict with them so I really can't see them turning out to be good. Admittedly it's not clear how on the side of good the children of the forest are as there's certainly a possiblity their intentions for Bran are shady.

As for R + L = J I think it is the case as it makes so much sense, and tbh I'd be a bit sickened if that turns out not to be true.

Just to be awkward ( ) you could say that the WW control the wights that they reanimate to an extent. If they are hellbent on wiping all man off the face of Westeros then why do they leave Craster and his daughters alone? (Yes he gives them his sons as sacrifice and you could argue that Craster wasn't very humane but they're humans nonetheless)

The one thing we should take from ASOIAF is that there is no clear cut evil...it's all grey to an extent.

Trippie

Can the wargs shift into the dragons?

Mickeroo

Trippie wrote: »

Can the wargs shift into the dragons?

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.

THose who have been teaching Bran to warg seem pretty adamant that he will fly one day

One way it could go is the Stark children's warging abilities (Jon in particular) might be what finally controls(for want of a better word) the dragons.

IK09

"There's great honor serving in the Night's Watch. The Starks have manned the wall for thousands of years, and you are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood."
―Eddard Stark on Jon Snow

He's defo a Stark anyway

Lemlin

I posted this over on the episode 5 thread. I haven't read the books so done of you may be able to ridicule this:

Does anyone think Jon could actually be Robert's son? Perhaps with Ned's sister? And Ned hid him for his safety.

He just reminds me of Aragorn from LOTR every time I see him. I also think he's had a tough upbringing, being the bastard, so is more aware of his surroundings than Robb, although he is still naive at present.

For example, he had the courage to kill they Night's Watch member in Season 2 and tactically place himself in with the wildlings. Yet Robb ignored the advice of others and lost half his men.

I can see the last book ending with Jon joining all the Kingdoms together with Mace's crew to fight off the White Walkers.

Maybe I'm totally wrong but just a theory I have.

Witcher

He's too young to be Robert's son. It has been suggested on other forums but the timeline just doesn't fit.

Tenger

Lemlin wrote: »

I posted this over on the episode 5 thread. I haven't read the books so done of you may be able to ridicule this:

Does anyone think Jon could actually be Robert's son? Perhaps with Ned's sister? And Ned hid him for his safety.
............

I can see the last book ending with Jon joining all the Kingdoms together with Mace's crew to fight off the White Walkers.

Maybe I'm totally wrong but just a theory I have.

I'll try to argue against you.

-The books show no evidence of any relationship between Lyanna and Robert. It gives the impression that Robert wanted/loved Lyanna but this was not returned. (This could very well be just my impression of the books however)
While Ned's father did betroth Lyanna to Robert she was well aware of his roving eye and did not believe it would be a happy marriage.

-IF Robert and Lyanna had of conceived Jon, well, bastards are accepted in Westeros. (Maybe not welcomed but still acknowledged) He would have been born and named Jon Storm (if born in the Stormlands which was the kingdom of the Barartheon's)
A child of Robert and Lyanna was not in danger so why would Ned take him as his own to protect him. Any illegimate child of Robert would not be a threat to those of his political marriage to Cersei Lannister.

-However both the books and the episodes show the desire (obsession?) of Robert to stamp put the Targaryens and their children. So it is plausible that Ned is protecting his nephew who is part Targaryen.
"Promise me Ned, promise me"

-In the books Ned finds Lyanna 'protected' by members of the Kingsguard. At the same time Rhaegar as heir to the throne is fighting the rebels. Lyanna was not of royal blood so why were they there?

-Rhaegar states that he will change things when he returns after the battle.

-Rhaegar was married for politcal reasons. Indeed the marriage of Robert to Cersei was a similar match,it was to bind Casterly Rock to the cause of the rebels after Roberts betrothed died in the course of the rebellon. Tywin had previously suggested Cersei as a suitable match for Rhaegar but was rejected.

-GRRM has a few short stories that add flavour to the background. In the tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar as victor crowned Lyanna the quenn of beauty, passing over his wife.

Mr.Prodston

Lemlin wrote: »

I posted this over on the episode 5 thread. I haven't read the books so done of you may be able to ridicule this:

Does anyone think Jon could actually be Robert's son? Perhaps with Ned's sister? And Ned hid him for his safety.

He just reminds me of Aragorn from LOTR every time I see him. I also think he's had a tough upbringing, being the bastard, so is more aware of his surroundings than Robb, although he is still naive at present.

For example, he had the courage to kill they Night's Watch member in Season 2 and tactically place himself in with the wildlings. Yet Robb ignored the advice of others and lost half his men.

I can see the last book ending with Jon joining all the Kingdoms together with Mace's crew to fight off the White Walkers.

Maybe I'm totally wrong but just a theory I have.

It most likely isn't Robert as Robert asks Ned who Jon's Father is:

There is a theory which hasn't really been hinted at, at all in the show but there is certain evidence/clues in the book. It's a good idea to keep out of this thread if you haven't read the book, there could be spoilers.

All I will say is that considering that clip it probably isn't Robert unless he's oblivious (which could be a possibility :pac: )

It is a good theory though and I continue to forget this scene every few months and think I'm after cracking it

Edit: Tenger went into full detail there totally disregarding my subtle approach :pac:

Liam O

I was thinking of Robert recently, there was something in this thread that kind of disproved it though but that was just Robert asking Ned about the woman, if he bedded Lyanna then It's possible obviously. There must be something to the amount of bastards he has popping up. Maybe Jon's Robert's and Cersei and Jaime are the lost Targaryans.

Jon Snow is Hodor's son which he conceived with one of the horses in his stable. Ned did not want to share this secret with the realm and lyanna died from the shock when she found out it was her horse. She made Ned promise not to tell anyone of what Hodor did to her horse. She bled to death from a broken heart after hearing how Hodor even got Maester Luwin to marry the man and the beast.

This is why Hodor carries Bran everywhere. He thinks he's a bloody horse. Hope that clears everything up

Mr.Prodston

Deleted User wrote: »

Jon Snow is Hodor's son which he conceived with one of the horses in his stable. Ned did not want to share this secret with the realm and lyanna died from the shock when she found out it was her horse. She made Ned promise not to tell anyone of what Hodor did to her horse. She bled to death from a broken heart after hearing how Hodor even got Maester Luwin to marry the man and the beast.

This is why Hodor carries Bran everywhere. He thinks he's a bloody horse. Hope that clears everything up

"Hodor" :pac:

Son0vagun

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

"Hodor" :pac:

We should be more concerned with who's son Hodor is! Or grandson as the case may be!

Duckworth_Luas

Deleted User wrote: »

Jon Snow is Hodor's son which he conceived with one of the horses in his stable. Ned did not want to share this secret with the realm and lyanna died from the shock when she found out it was her horse. She made Ned promise not to tell anyone of what Hodor did to her horse. She bled to death from a broken heart after hearing how Hodor even got Maester Luwin to marry the man and the beast.

This is why Hodor carries Bran everywhere. He thinks he's a bloody horse. Hope that clears everything up

But isn't Hodor Azor Ahai reborn, the prince that was promised? Isn't our first glimpse of Lightbringer where Osha compares him to a giant?

Duckworth_Luas

Son0vagun wrote: »

We should be more concerned with who's son Hodor is! Or grandson as the case may be!

Are you saying that Hodor is

as thick as a castle wall?

Son0vagun

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Are you saying that Hodor is

as thick as a castle wall?

Yeah, I think that would be brilliant. Hopefully the next Tale will reveal more!

DoubleD

5starpool wrote: »

What if he dies and is resurrected by Melisandre?

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Exactly! That's the technicality that I hope will free him from his vow. Although I would prefer if he did not die, there are too many dead/risen again characters already.

Kess73 wrote: »

There is of course another way for him to die and come back. Was thinking along the lines of how they drown folk in the Iron Islands as part of their worship of the Drowned God and then resuscitate them.

That way he would have technically died and there would be no supernatural element to his return from the dead.

Or, he dies and the nights watch/wildlings burn his body to prevent him turning into a white walker. After his cremation he rises again, reborn through the flames, blood of the dragon and all that lark.

madrab

Judging by the latest episode, tv melisandra

now knows how to ressurect people based on how thoros resurrected beric

Liam O

madrab wrote: »

Judging by the latest episode, tv melisandra

now knows how to ressurect people based on how thoros resurrected beric

"You should not be able to do this." She hardly knows, she just knows that it's possible.

madrab

she know its possible now as somebody who had lost faith as a red priest was able to do it, then surely her, as r'hllor bottom bitch, should have no problem doing it

Mickeroo

The way she was able to track down Gendry due to his royal blood or whatever makes me think she's

later drawn to Jon due to his possibly royal lineage too.

Brian?

Haven't read the whole thread, but I always just assumed Jon was a Targaryen.

Dany has 3 dragons, she needs 2 relations to fly them. One in the bag. One to go=Jon

tommy2bad

No. 3 dragons, Danni, Jon and Jamie.
Can't see Jon not being a Targaryen, Danni we know is and the third is Jamie, Cerci will be dealt with by then and we have had clues as to the Targaryen-ness of both Jamie and Cerci in the books.
Besides it's a song of Ice (Jon) and fire (Dannie).

Mickeroo

tommy2bad wrote: »

No. 3 dragons, Danni, Jon and Jamie.
Can't see Jon not being a Targaryen, Danni we know is and the third is Jamie, Cerci will be dealt with by then and we have had clues as to the Targaryen-ness of both Jamie and Cerci in the books.
Besides it's a song of Ice (Jon) and fire (Dannie).

What clues are there for Jamie and Cersei being targaryen?

Tenger

Mickeroo wrote: »

What clues are there for Jamie and Cersei being targaryen?

I would be interested in these 'clues' too......

AFAIK:
-Tywin offered Cersei as a wife for Rhaegar when he was Hand
-Cersei tried to legitmise her incest by saying the Targaryen's had done it for generations.


I would expect a higher chance of Tyrion being the 3rd head than Jamie.