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New clue on Jon parentage. SPOILERS WITHIN.

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    #62
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Kess73 wrote: »
    There is of course another way for him to die and come back. Was thinking along the lines of how they drown folk in the Iron Islands as part of their worship of the Drowned God and then resuscitate them.

    That way he would have technically died and there would be no supernatural element to his return from the dead.

    But then wouldn't all the nightwatchers do that whenever they wanted two weeks off or whatever.


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    #63
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,176 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Good point but if you read Damphair's first chapter in AFFC the point is made that he's a rarity as a priest of that religion in that he's never killed someone doing it: most of the other's aren't as successful. From memory of my own life-guard training, I think the statistics on reviving someone who's drowned using CPR is something closer to 1/100 than the 99% we all got used to watching Baywatch in our youth...


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    #64
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    To be honest, I kinda hope he stays dead. If he is brought back to life it will just muddy the waters.....

    Well I hope he isn't dead at all. I hope he didn't feel the 4th knife because there wasn't one, because Tormund and the rest of the Wildings intervened and there may be no Nights Watch left now, cause they slaughtered them all.


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    #65
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I'm sure somebody else has said it somewhere, but one theory that I don't think I've seen: could it be as simple as Lyanna and Robert. Could they have had a quiet quicky marriage at the start of the rebellion, at which point he got her pregnant. Then after she died Ned and Robert realised that they'd need Lannister support, so covered it up with Ned agreeing to take in Jon as his own bastard?

    So Jon Baratheon, black of hair, would be the true Baratheon heir?


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    #66
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    stevenmu wrote: »
    I'm sure somebody else has said it somewhere, but one theory that I don't think I've seen: could it be as simple as Lyanna and Robert. Could they have had a quiet quicky marriage at the start of the rebellion, at which point he got her pregnant. Then after she died Ned and Robert realised that they'd need Lannister support, so covered it up with Ned agreeing to take in Jon as his own bastard?

    So Jon Baratheon, black of hair, would be the true Baratheon heir?

    From A Game Of Thrones, Robert asks Ned about Jon's mother, and Ned won't even speak to him about it, so I doubt Robert is the father.
    "You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"
    "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
    "Wylla, yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like..."
    Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

    Also, I think Lyanna could still have been a maid at the time of her kidnapping/running off with Rhaegar, and she didn't care too much for Robert by the sounds of things, so I doubt she slept with him ever.
    "Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some young girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."


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    #67
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Mr Freeze wrote: »
    From A Game Of Thrones, Robert asks Ned about Jon's mother, and Ned won't even speak to him about it, so I doubt Robert is the father.
    Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that. That was actually what put the idea in my head first that there was some connection to Robert. IIRC Ned seemed particularly uncomfortable talking to Robert about it. At the time I didn't know as much about everything else that had happened, so I wondered if honourable Ned was unhappy at how Robert had abandoned some bastard of his own so adopted him. I guess the idea stuck in my head since and I just forgot why.

    I might have read to much into it at the time though, Ned did always seem to be very protective of the secret at other times too.


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    #68
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    stevenmu wrote: »
    Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that. That was actually what put the idea in my head first that there was some connection to Robert. IIRC Ned seemed particularly uncomfortable talking to Robert about it....

    I figured the discomfort in that scene, was due to Ned knowing what would happen if Robert found out Jon was a Targaryen. His hatred of the Targaryen's was one of his stand out traits I thought.


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    #69
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    That would make a lot of sense.


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    #70
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    stevenmu wrote: »
    ....I might have read to much into it at the time though, Ned did always seem to be very protective of the secret at other times too.

    But good lateral thinking, which seems to be much needed in the ASoIaF saga.


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    #71
    Tzar Chasm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭Tzar Chasm


    What about Robbs legitimising of Jon?
    it was covered in the tv series and in the books, wouldn't any decree by a king, even after the RW, the watch recognizes all kings equally and takes no part in the internal politics of Westeros Traditionally


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    #72
    Johnny Bitte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭Johnny Bitte


    Tzar Chasm wrote: »
    What about Robbs legitimising of Jon?
    it was covered in the tv series and in the books, wouldn't any decree by a king, even after the RW, the watch recognizes all kings equally and takes no part in the internal politics of Westeros Traditionally
    When did he do that?


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    #73
    Tzar Chasm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭Tzar Chasm


    After the 'deaths ' but obv before the RW, before he rode off someplace in the end of anepisode I think in the series


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    #74
    Johnny Bitte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭Johnny Bitte


    Tzar Chasm wrote: »
    After the 'deaths ' but obv before the RW, before he rode off someplace in the end of anepisode I think in the series
    My memory is atrocious, don't remember that at all but if you're right it could be a big part of the final act!

    Its why I love asoiaf so much. If it got any more detailed there d be 12 apostles and loafs of bread.


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    #75
    Ambient Occlusion
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Ambient Occlusion


    Tzar Chasm wrote: »
    After the 'deaths ' but obv before the RW, before he rode off someplace in the end of anepisode I think in the series
    Are you talking about Robb's will? Robb sent Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont with it to find to find Greywater Watch and Howland Reed. Supposedly in the will he legitimised Jon as his heir but we can't be sure until one of the three resurfaces with the will. It would be very convenient if Howland did this as he is the only one who knows the truth of the Tower of Joy incident and could possibly reveal the parentage.


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    #76
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Ambient Occlusion wrote: »
    ......It would be very convenient if Howland did this as he is the only one who knows the truth of the Tower of Joy incident and could possibly reveal the parentage.

    Here's hoping.

    But even if Jon is legitimized in the will, he already turned down Stannis when he offered the same, maybe when it comes from Robb, it will mean more to him.

    I really hope that this happens, but we have to get around the events at the end of ADwD first.


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    #77
    Davyhal
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Davyhal


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    How do you figure? Descent is not along formal lines so it's not clear that rhaegars son would rank higher than his brother or sister if he dies prior to takig the throne. More importantly, at the time of the birth of jon, there were many better claims to be heir, most notably rhaegars other son aemon. This is also to miss the very real issue that succession in got is not by right but by might.

    I'm pretty sure that it mentioned somewhere that the Targaryans believed "The first's first takes precidence over the second", which we can presume can also apply to the first's second takes precedence over the third. I.E. Rhaegar (the first child of the king)'s 2nd surviving child (Jon) would take precidence over Rhaegar's brother and sister (Daenarys). This is presuming of course that Rhaegar married again before he died, which is likely, as it is implied that his first marriage was pretty much loveless in comparison to his relationship with Ned's sister, and Targaryans did practice Bigamy. However, if Aegon is indeed Rhaegar's surviving child, then his claim would take precidence over them all.


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    #78
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Davyhal wrote: »
    and Targaryans did practice Bigamy.

    Do we have examples of this?


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    #79
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    username123 wrote: »
    Do we have examples of this?

    Aegon the Conqueror had 2 wives (who were also his sisters,so not sure if that it 'normal' bigamy)


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    #80
    Deano7788
    Registered Users Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Deano7788


    username123 wrote: »
    Do we have examples of this?

    Aegon the Conquerer married both his sisters.


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    #81
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Deano7788 wrote: »
    Aegon the Conquerer married both his sisters.

    Is that not a long time before the current laws of Westeros though?


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    #82
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,192 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Jaimie has even used the fact as an excuse to justify his relationship with Cersei. It's not considered acceptable now though it seems, wouldn't be surprised if that was a direct result of Robert's rule and his hatred of the Targaryans..


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    #83
    Deano7788
    Registered Users Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Deano7788


    username123 wrote: »
    Is that not a long time before the current laws of Westeros though?

    Well, it wasn't exactly approved of in Westeros beforehand either. It must be a Valyrian thing. Don't forget, though, the Targaryen's pretty much ruled Westeros until Robert's Rebellion so they would have put most of those laws in place. They'd have hardly outlawed their own practices.


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    #84
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Jaimie has even used the fact as an excuse to justify his relationship with Cersei. It's not considered acceptable now though it seems, wouldn't be surprised if that was a direct result of Robert's rule and his hatred of the Targaryans..

    Well thats just justifying incest, not bigamy.


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    #85
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,192 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    username123 wrote: »
    Well thats just justifying incest, not bigamy.

    My bad, got mixed up.


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    #86
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    My bad, got mixed up.

    Course Aegon marrying the two sisters was incestuous bigamy, so perhaps that has a different status to just ordinary bigamy :)


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    #87
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Do we know if the Valryians practiced bigamy or incest or was that just as a result of there only being about 3 of them left after the Doom?


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    #88
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Course Craster was practising incestuous bigamy as well.

    And to some degree the Iron Born do with the salt wives. Although I dont think they have any legal status.


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    #89
    Duckworth_Luas
    Registered Users Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    Gbear wrote: »
    Do we know if the Valryians practiced bigamy or incest or was that just as a result of there only being about 3 of them left after the Doom?
    The Targaryens were not the last Valaryians. The Doom took place a few generations before Aegon's Landing. The Targaryens had fled to Dragonstone, due to a prophetic dream one of them had, and so survived.

    Other Valaryians, in the Free Cities and on Dragonstone, also survived. For example, when Aegon does invade Westeros he has a small host of other Valaryians including the original Baratheons.

    I would say the tradition of incest among the Targyaryens is just a devise used by GRR Martin to ensure that they have retained a distinctive look over the generations.


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    #90
    Davyhal
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Davyhal


    It looks like Maegor was also bigamist (or possibly more), and married not just to family members. Considering the number of wives mentioned, some could surely have been simultaneous...

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maegor_I_Targaryen


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    #91
    Mr.Prodston
    Registered Users Posts: 16,305 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Prodston


    I really hope it's not Rhaegar and Lyanna simply because everybody is saying/thinking it is. I've seen the clues and they're compelling and it's hard to not think it now but I just hope it's something out of left-field.

    GRRM may have started with the intention of R + L but didn't anticipate so many coming to the conclusion and has a contingency plan. Basically I just don't want 3/4's of people saying "Told you so" :pac:

    While I'm here, lets say it is true then why would Jon necessarily side with the Targaryens? He's still half Stark and Dragons seem as dangerous as the Others to my mind.


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