Brothers Grimm- Fairytales for today?

mahamageehad

I recently read a number of the original Brothers Grimm tales and I was surprised at how dark they were. Even though I had heard a version of these stories before e.g. Little Red Riding Hood, Snow White, Hansel and Gretel I had never heard the original, just the modern more sanitised versions.

Fot those of you who don't know what I'm talking about I mean the fact the Little red riding hood gets eaten by the golf as does her grandmother, Cinderellas evil stepsisters cut parts off their feet in order to fit into the shoe and Snow White gave birth to twins before she woke up.

So here's what I'm wondering- was anybody told the original versions of these stories as a child? Having spoken to a German friend these tales are still told in their original forms to children there today. And if you have children would you tell them these stories, or the more sanitised versions from Disney etc.

In fact in this digital age does anybody read bedtime stories anymore or has that been replaced by e-books and tablet devices?

Is there anyone who has no idea what stories I'm talking about? You can find some stories here.

Personally I find the stories a bit dark and I wouldn't feel comfortable telling them to young children for fear of giving them nightmares but at the same time i think the message of the stories is a lot stronger as well.

boomkatalog

As far as I know, those stories were never intended for children. Certainly would recommend them to teenagers, children? No.

I work in childcare and have to say, reading stories is my favourite part of the job. Anyone who doesn't read to their children at all, those kids are missing out imo.

I remember the sisters cutting off bits of their feet in cinderella, and of course I remember the wolf eating the grandmother... I think the one I know had the hunter shooting him just before he got LRRH


I don't know about telling them to young children myself though

mahamageehad

boomkatalog wrote: »

As far as I know, those stories were never intended for children. Certainly would recommend them to teenagers, children? No.

I work in childcare and have to say, reading stories is my favourite part of the job. Anyone who doesn't read to their children at all, those kids are missing out imo.

Yeah I think that may be true, but the word fairytale kind of automatically seems to mean children in my head, and the disney versions are definitely aimed at young children.

Do you read from books or kind of tell stories from series of pictures? And are they stories like these that you were familiar with as a child or is there some kind of selection of approved books you can choose from?

boomkatalog

Disney seem to have taken to them, and rewritten them. Which makes sense, the idea of a unique tale for children with a lesson, clever thing to do.

We read from books, sure if there weren't pictures they wouldn't be interested they bring in their own too. I get a lot of these ones in actually and the versions differ slightly from time to time. One of the other carers did mention that a child under her care recently brought in a version of LRRH in which the wolf ate them both, and had to be cut open to retrieve LRRH and Granny, and that there was even an illustration of the woodcutter cutting the wolf open. Completely inappropriate for young children imo! The child that owned this book was not quite 3.

mahamageehad

boomkatalog wrote: »

Disney seem to have taken to them, and rewritten them. Which makes sense, the idea of a unique tale for children with a lesson, clever thing to do.

We read from books, sure if there weren't pictures they wouldn't be interested they bring in their own too. I get a lot of these ones in actually and the versions differ slightly from time to time. One of the other carers did mention that a child under her care recently brought in a version of LRRH in which the wolf ate them both, and had to be cut open to retrieve LRRH and Granny, and that there was even an illustration of the woodcutter cutting the wolf open. Completely inappropriate for young children imo! The child that owned this book was not quite 3.

Yes that's the original version and when I mentioned to my friend how inappropriate I though it was I was shown an illustrated book, definitely aimed at very young children with pretty graphic disturbing images. However it's normal there to read these stories to kids whereas here I think if a child had nightmares because their teacher showed them this in school there'd be uproar!

Scarinae

I read those versions of Little Red Riding Hood and Cinderella as a child. I also had the version of the Little Mermaid where she kills herself at the end, and the version of Rapunzel where the witch blinds the prince. I'm sure there's loads more. They're just stories to be honest, and I never had nightmares from reading them.

Princess Peach

I read all of these when I was a child and I turned out just fine.


Oh wait.....:pac:

Bubblefett

I was a Disney child, never read the grimm stories. First time I encounted one of their books was when I was 15 and babysitting my neighbours kids. They asked me to read them "the little mermaid."
I was shocked, no singing crab or wize cracking seagull, no happily ever after . Kids thought it was great though (girls aged 4 and 7).
I've read them since and they're pretty awesome.

OakeyDokey

The book was originally titled Children's & Household Tales so they were meant for children. When the stories were first published they had to re-write them after an uproar of unsuitability, the stories were then tweaked and then published again.

Quote from Wiki

The first volumes were much criticized because, although they were called "Children's Tales", they were not regarded as suitable for children, both for the scholarly information included and the subject matter.[1] Many changes through the editions – such as turning the wicked mother of the first edition in Snow White and Hansel and Gretel to a stepmother, were probably made with an eye to such suitability. They removed sexual references—such as Rapunzel's innocently asking why her dress was getting tight around her belly, and thus naïvely revealing her pregnancy and the prince's visits to her stepmother—but, in many respects, violence, particularly when punishing villains, was increased.

I just think it's funny that Disney would take stories like these!

As much as these seem inappropriate I had some Lady Bird books at home when I was about 6/7 and they had the original stories in them and I never thought nothing much about them, never had nightmares. Fairytales are not necessarily "happy endings" Fairytales are just short stories that feature magic, folklore and fantasy characters that are usually based around legends.

Morag

They were the dark urban legends of their time and used as morality tales to get people esp women to behave.

In the original sleeping beauty a kiss doesn't wake her and the prince as sex with her until she becomes pregnant and gives birth and the baby sucking on her finger pulls the needle out.

As for the not for kids, I think the sanitised versions do more harm then the darker tales.
Kids know that there are monsters and horrors, but tales which tell them the monsters can be defeated are important.

It's not just the Brother's Grimm, sure even Rock a Bye Baby ends with a pancaked infant.

While I wouldn't recommend the more graphic ones, a little bit of darkness/horror isn't too much for kids to handle IMO.

afkasurfjunkie

i remember covering this at a lecture in college. the original fairlytales were folk tales that were used to warn children of danger. beware of strangers and all that jazz.
the example that i best remember was little red riding hood. basically the 'red' cloak/riding hood represents a girl who is going through puberty and is now fertile, and the story was a warning for girls to be wary of predatory men. the grimms brothers tidied them up somewhat. disney completely sanitized them.
i remember reading loads of different versions as a child. i thought slicing open the wolf to remove granny and little red was a perfectly acceptable way to free them:D and by god did i know not to talk to a stranger after reading that.

Da Shins Kelly

My mother told me the story of Little Red Riding Hood with her getting eaten by the wolf. I didn't realise there was another version.

I love the Grimm tales, but I think I probably love them because I'm older and can see them for what they are - stories. But then, I was always a morbid child - obsessed with ghosts and death and stuff. I think I probably would have loved them as a child. I don't think there's anything wrong with exposing children to things that are a little bit disturbing. Some of Roald Dahl's stuff was pretty dark even for children, and then there were cartoons like the Animals of Farthing Wood and Watership Down that were also pretty gruesome at times. I don't see anything wrong with it though. People don't give children enough credit. Sure these things are somewhat challenging, but people shouldn't patronize kids either. I loved The Animals of Farthing Wood as a child, and while I found it a bit upsetting sometimes, it didn't scar me for life. These things build character.

fataltragedy

Have you watched the tv show Grimm?!

It's based on all these fairytales, and to be honest, I generally jump out of fright at least once during every episode!!!

They're quite terrifying really - and so many of them I didn't know, and had to google to prepare myself for what would happen, aha! Certainly the Disneyfied versions make them far more approachable.

And I'm 26! So for kids, they'd surely be terrifying

pickarooney

Is there a version of LRRH where the wolf doesn't eat the grandmother? I've only heard the versions where LRRH escapes and where she's eaten herself but the old lady gets gobbled every time. How does the story work if nobody is eaten?

I think the worst fairytale of all is the little matchstick girl. It's just the bleakest thing ever written for children. Still, it has its merits, the kids learn to empathise with worse off people and explore the harder emotions through these stories.

Honey-ec

boomkatalog wrote: »

One of the other carers did mention that a child under her care recently brought in a version of LRRH in which the wolf ate them both, and had to be cut open to retrieve LRRH and Granny, and that there was even an illustration of the woodcutter cutting the wolf open.

That's the version I always knew. Tbh, I didn't even know there was another version til I read this thread. Same with Cinderella (or Ashputtel, depending on the version) and the sisters chopping off bits of their feet - one took her toes and the other her heels, IIRC. The version of The Little Mermaid (that's Hans Christian Anderson, btw) that I read growing up also had her die at the end, and while she was human it was said that the pain of walking was like swords being driven into her feet at every step, and I remember the witch blinding the prince in Rapunzel.

I think children these days are far too mollycoddled. I certainly wasn't scarred for life by hearing the original versions of any of these stories. Fairytales are essentially meant to function as cautionary tales for children and by diluting them too much, the cautionary message is lost.

OakeyDokey

Honey-ec wrote: »

That's the version I always knew. Tbh, I didn't even know there was another version til I read this thread. Same with Cinderella (or Ashputtel, depending on the version) and the sisters chopping off bits of their feet - one took her toes and the other her heels, IIRC. The version of The Little Mermaid (that's Hans Christian Anderson, btw) that I read growing up also had her die at the end, and while she was human it was said that the pain of walking was like swords being driven into her feet at every step, and I remember the witch blinding the prince in Rapunzel.

I think children these days are far too mollycoddled. I certainly wasn't scarred for life by hearing the original versions of any of these stories. Fairytales are essentially meant to function as cautionary tales for children and by diluting them too much, the cautionary message is lost.

In second class we did The Little Mermaid play and the girl who played Ariel had to act out the scene where her feet hurt at every step and the narrator was explaining in detail about how it felt like walking on daggers, no parents complained and none of us kids ever though much about.

ash23

Yeah I remember the ones of violence where the wolf was slit open in LLRH, the dagger pain and death of the little mermaid, the blinding of the prince in Rapunzel etc.

In the 3 little pigs, they boiled the wolf alive.
In Hansel and Gretal the kids were abandoned and burned alive a woman who wanted to eat them.
Pied Piper drowned all the kids bar the disabled one who couldn't keep up.
Goldilocks was eaten by the 3 bears.

pickarooney

I'm sure we all remember the one about the guy who was stripped down and had nails hammered into him before being left to die on a hillside, even though he'd done nothing wrong?

analucija

As far as I can remember most Hans Christian Anderson stories are dark or have sad endings. Oscar Wilde also doesn't do happy endings either. Those are brilliant stories, you might not read them to three year old but otherwise I really don't know what damage they could do. I know it's better if children read junk than not read anything at all but I would be a lot more opposed to Barbie stories and similar franchise rubbish than classic childrens stories.

The little match girl use to upset me so much as a child and I was never fond of Hansel and Gretal either, any thing to do with children being cold alone and hungry is bound to be upsetting.

There was a poem that use to upset me I think its called little boy blue...it was a about a little boy that died but his toys wait faithfully for him to come and play with them not realizing he is dead.

Rocket19

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Some of Roald Dahl's stuff was pretty dark even for children, and then there were cartoons like the Animals of Farthing Wood and Watership Down that were also pretty gruesome at times. I don't see anything wrong with it though. People don't give children enough credit. Sure these things are somewhat challenging, but people shouldn't patronize kids either. I loved The Animals of Farthing Wood as a child, and while I found it a bit upsetting sometimes, it didn't scar me for life. These things build character.

Oh I loved "Animals of Farthing Wood"! I used to get up at 6:30 every morning before school, and watch it. Loads of animals used to die crossing the roads, get eaten by other animals, and whatnot. I'm pretty sure there was even episodes where the animals froze to death lol. For whatever reason, I loved it though. I probably thought it was "grown-up" or whatever. Really don't think that kind of thing would be shown on kids TV nowadays!

Neyite

I recently got 3 books in easons for my overseas nephews of Irish legends for children, and when I flicked through them, I was surprised at the violence in the stories, so before I gave them to my nephews I made sure to mention to the parents to check they were age appropriate.

I had the brothers grimm book as a child and loved it, but to be honest, equally gruesome were the bible stories for children that the mammy used to read us.

Rocket19

Neyite wrote: »

I recently got 3 books in easons for my overseas nephews of Irish legends for children, and when I flicked through them, I was surprised at the violence in the stories, so before I gave them to my nephews I made sure to mention to the parents to check they were age appropriate.

I had the brothers grimm book as a child and loved it, but to be honest, equally gruesome were the bible stories for children that the mammy used to read us.

Are you serious? I had that book as a little kid! I loved it! I think I was like 4 when I got it in my stocking, and it was one of those ones I read every night for years. Nice choice haha

apsalar

I used to love reading "1001 nights" from our local library when I was about 9/10 and imagine myself as a sort of female Sinbad, battling the Roc, getting lots of treasure and having lots of adventure.

I read Sir Richard Burton's original translation of the Arabian Nights 5 years ago :eek:...Waaaay different from the sanitised stories I loved as a child. There was sex in it! Egad!:) I certainly never saw that one coming. It was quite dirty, and a lot more violent than I remembered. The whole premise of Scheherazade's stories was to avoid doing the dirty with the king in order to save her life. Definitely NOT suitable for the little ones. I will have to get a copy of the more kid-friendly Arabian Nights for my children till they're older.

The stories were fantastic though. My favourite myths/ fanatsy stories to date.

iguana

pickarooney wrote: »

Is there a version of LRRH where the wolf doesn't eat the grandmother? I've only heard the versions where LRRH escapes and where she's eaten herself but the old lady gets gobbled every time. How does the story work if nobody is eaten?

I've read versions where the wolf ties the grandmother up and hides her in the wardrobe or under the bed as he doesn't have time to eat her before Red arrives at the house and he wants to eat her more than the grandmother.

confusticated

I had most of the unsanitised versions, Cinderella's sisters chopping bits off their feet, Little Red Riding Hood was eaten by the wolf but the woodsman cut him open to free her and Granny...never heard of the Rapunzel prince being blinded til this thread though. Had all the Irish legends too...I think kids are more able to deal with things like this than they're given credit for, although the wizard of oz gave me nightmares for some reason and had to be taken off me for a couple of years!

Dolbert

I had an old Brothers Grimm book as a child with the original stories, I loved them! Like most kids, I loved anything that was a bit dark, like Roald Dahl.

I used to have a book of old Irish fairytales too, I wish I could find it now as it was fantastic, definitely plenty of weird stuff in there! I remember in on of the Irish versions of Cinderella, the wicked sisters boil their mother alive in a pot 'until the flesh dropped off her bones' :eek: Her spirit then takes the form of a cat and helps 'Cinderella' find her fortune

kylith

I had the uncensored versions as a child, and loved them. I think that people worry too much about 'traumatising' children. Children love gory tales where the bad guys get squished into a gooey paste, and if the good guys can get squished a bit too then so much the better.

As Dolorous says kids love dark stuff, there's a reason why Dahl's Revolting Rhymes is so popular.

Lia_lia

Yeah we had the original ones as kids. My Father also liked to read this ridiculous German book to us: Struwwelpeter. Parts of it include...

"In "Die Geschichte vom bösen Friederich" (The Story of Bad Frederick), a violent boy terrorizes animals and people. Eventually he is bitten by a dog, who goes on to eat the boy's sausage while he is bedridden."

"In "Die Geschichte vom Daumenlutscher" (The Story of the Thumb-Sucker), a mother warns her son not to suck his thumbs. However, when she goes out of the house he resumes his thumb sucking, until a roving tailor appears and cuts off his thumbs with giant scissors."

"In "Die Geschichte vom fliegenden Robert" (The Story of the Flying Robert), a boy goes outside during a storm. The wind catches his umbrella and sends him to places unknown, and presumably to his doom."

"In "Die gar traurige Geschichte mit dem Feuerzeug" (The Dreadful Story of the Matches), a girl plays with matches and burns to death."


Anyone else had it? Was terrifying! Was also brought up on watching an "old scary black and white film" every night before bed. I don't know what my Dad wanted to accomplish by all this.

kylith

I have a book at home called No Go The Bogeyman which looks at the origins of these stories, and the reasons behind them; which are mostly 'Do what you're told, or something horrible will happen you'. Things like Little Red Riding Hood were tales warning girls about rapists ('Don't go wandering in the woods, or a man will 'devour' you'). Even ones which are innoccuous to us, like the Sandman, had horrible beginnings; originally the sand didn't just make your eyes gritty, it made them jump right out of your head so that he could eat them, 'so you'd better keep them shut and go to sleep (and stop pestering me and your dad)'.

The ones Lia Lia mentions are very obvious; be nice, don't go out in a storm don't suck your thumb.

Dudess

I had a few fairytale books, some of the stories were shockingly violent and dark! But the worst of it went over my head. I especially remember Bluebeard, a dude who butchered all his wives. I think as a kid I assumed (or wanted to believe anyway) that such violence was only the stuff of made-up stories, that people wouldn't be capable of those deeds in real life. I remember reading girls' comics like Bunty, and Mandy especially, where there were awfully depressing stories about child abuse, child slavery and so on, which upset me a bit at 10/11 but I wouldn't even be able to read them now - probably because I'm more than well aware that that stuff does go on in real life.
Ditto Flowers In The Attic - a really popular novel in the 80s and some of the 90s about a woman locking her children away from the world because of greed. Horrifically disturbing story but I read it cover-to-cover aged 12 whereas I can't even think about that story now. Horrible.

pickarooney wrote: »

I think the worst fairytale of all is the little matchstick girl. It's just the bleakest thing ever written for children.

Yeah horrendously so... although the ending is slightly comforting. Slightly.

pickarooney wrote: »

I'm sure we all remember the one about the guy who was stripped down and had nails hammered into him before being left to die on a hillside, even though he'd done nothing wrong?

It's mad - my gran wouldn't watch anything with even a faint whiff of violence... except The Passion Of The Christ, an horrifically violent film, no prob at all. I remember the effects of crucifixion being detailed very graphically in a religion book I had in secondary school and when I asked the teacher (a nun) if I could leave the classroom while she was reading that passage, she flipped the lid at me. It was utterly vomit-inducing but "You'd better learn about it because it's Jesus"... Feck that!

sam34

Dudess wrote: »

Ditto Flowers In The Attic - a really popular novel in the 80s and some of the 90s about a woman locking her children away from the world because of greed. Horrifically disturbing story but I read it cover-to-cover aged 12 whereas I can't even think about that story now.

god, I'd forgotten about that book *shudder*

as a young teenager I read it and all the sequels- they didn't really bother me at the time but looking back I think they were horrific, in terms of the violence and incest, they really were bleak.

rainbowtrout

One I remember quite clearly is The Goose Girl (Grimm again)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_Girl

Princess on travels with maid. Maid is a bit of a wagon and makes her swap places. Has the princess' talking horse killed. Horses head is mounted on town gate and still talks to princess who is now a goose girl.

The king they are visiting learns the truth and asks the maid posing as the princess what the punishment should be when he relays the story without mentioning names at dinner. He exposes her as a fraud and follows through with her punishment - put her in a barrel naked, barrel lined with nails and glass and have it dragged through the town by a horse.

Pretty violent punishment, but I think I turned out fairly normal. Again, didn't equate the story with real life, for most kids stories of princes and princesses isn't real, talking horses... enough said. As for the violence, well I thought she deserved it. I don't think kids spend any time processing the details and thinking 'you know that's a bit sadistic and violent'. It really just comes down to the good guy wins and the bad guy gets punished in the case of this story.

Dudess

I remember The Goose Girl but don't remember that punishment!

iguana

sam34 wrote: »

god, I'd forgotten about that book *shudder*

as a young teenager I read it and all the sequels- they didn't really bother me at the time but looking back I think they were horrific, in terms of the violence and incest, they really were bleak.

It's funny this is being mentioned here as my husband found out this week what that book is about and he's fuming. When he was about 10 his family went to visit relatives in the States who are very right wing and they were extremely concerned about how the sci-fi and fantasy books he was reading were possibly satanic. He was badgered a lot on the trip by them trying to get the books off him. And all the while his 12 year old sister was reading Flowers in the Attic and nobody was concerned.

I remember those books! I was 10 reading those
I don't think they had an effect on me really
and "my sweet audrina" by her

sam34

sam34 wrote: »

god, I'd forgotten about that book *shudder*

as a young teenager I read it and all the sequels- they didn't really bother me at the time but looking back I think they were horrific, in terms of the violence and incest, they really were bleak.

have been thinking a bit more about this book tonight-

I was reading it at about 12/13 years of age, but my mother didn't know I was doing so. I recall thinking it was a really "grown
up" book to be reading, and was trying my best not to be overwhelmed by it, kind of in an attempt to prove to myself how mature I was.

but now, looking back, I can't believe how fcuked up it was.

(disclaimer, I've drank an entire bottle of sancerre all by myself so the above ramblings may not make sense to anyone other than me)

Logical Fallacy

boomkatalog wrote: »

Disney seem to have taken to them, and rewritten them. Which makes sense, the idea of a unique tale for children with a lesson, clever thing to do.

It's also a lot easier to take something that is in the public domain and change it that try and market something that is original.

Hence the Disney back catalogue of films etc that are based on well known tales from around the world.

OakeyDokey

If anyone wants to read the Grimm's Fairy Tales you can download the free ebook on Project Gutenberg