The Right Laptop For College?

oB1

Hi All,

Just wanted to throw this up here and get some opinions/advice on what you all think a good laptop would/should consist of for college , to last about 4 years no problem.

I suppose i just want some other opinions, as a already have a good idea in mind, i have worked in the IT industry, and have attended college courses in the past, but i am now returning to full time education, to get my undergrad in computing.

Factors to consider i suppose:

> To last a decent length of time: 4 years
> Powerful enough for a Computing Student
> Decent for games, but not overly important
> Obviously contain a decent amount of storage, preferable an SSD to boost performance
> Good graphics, for movies and whatever else.
> Long lasting battery
> RAM to be decent, again, to enhance performance
> and what ever else....

The Dell XPS 15z stands out to me, at a reasonable price.

what y'all think?

Monotype

In my opinion, one of the most important things is portability here. There's a good chance you'll be walking across campus to get between classes and you might be doing a lot more walking. If it was myself, I'd be looking at around 14''. Then again, if you're a big person, you mightn't care.

For reasonable graphics, maybe an up to date Ivy Bridge CPU.
Now at the moment, there's only quad core i7s released and these will be quite expensive. There should be dual cores (with hyperthreading) i3s and i5s for release next month.
The advantages of this will be greater efficiency i.e., greater battery life and the HD4000 graphics would actually be reasonable enough for for light games and easily manage HD videos.

MiniNukinfuts

Have you considered a macbook pro? Of all the computer's i've had, the macbook pro has been the most reliable. I've recently added an ssd to it, and now it's even faster than it was before. I also get about 7 hours out of mine. MBP's are due a refresh in the coming weeks, so i'd wait until then before getting one (if you considered in the first place). Just out of my experience, I wouldn't trust a dell ever again. HP are decent enough machines, but they haven't the greatest life span (i've averaged about 1.5/2 years out of them)

If you're aiming to keep a laptop for 4 years, you'll need to spend a decent amount to make it future proof. Definitely look for a good battery life, As Monotype said, portability is key ( how bout a Macbook Air? or an Ultrabook?), an SSD is ideal.

oB1

MiniNukinfuts wrote: »

Have you considered a macbook pro? Of all the computer's i've had, the macbook pro has been the most reliable. I've recently added an ssd to it, and now it's even faster than it was before. I also get about 7 hours out of mine. MBP's are due a refresh in the coming weeks, so i'd wait until then before getting one (if you considered in the first place). Just out of my experience, I wouldn't trust a dell ever again. HP are decent enough machines, but they haven't the greatest life span (i've averaged about 1.5/2 years out of them)

If you're aiming to keep a laptop for 4 years, you'll need to spend a decent amount to make it future proof. Definitely look for a good battery life, As Monotype said, portability is key ( how bout a Macbook Air? or an Ultrabook?), an SSD is ideal.

Monotype wrote: »

In my opinion, one of the most important things is portability here. There's a good chance you'll be walking across campus to get between classes and you might be doing a lot more walking. If it was myself, I'd be looking at around 14''. Then again, if you're a big person, you mightn't care.

For reasonable graphics, maybe an up to date Ivy Bridge CPU.
Now at the moment, there's only quad core i7s released and these will be quite expensive. There should be dual cores (with hyperthreading) i3s and i5s for release next month.
The advantages of this will be greater efficiency i.e., greater battery life and the HD4000 graphics would actually be reasonable enough for for light games and easily manage HD videos.

Cheers for the responses guys.

Yeah, portability is something i actually had not taken into consideration - so, maybe the Dell XPS 15 isn't the best one for College.

I worked with HP for the past year, and have used a HP Laptop as my primary machine everyday, so, while great, id be looking for a change of scenery.

RE: Getting a MacBook PRO, not a bad idea, not a bad idea at all... i am primarily a windows guy, but i LOVE Apple, i have the iPad & iPhone myself BUT, as i will be a computing student, most of the work will be done on windows machines, now i know i can partition the HD, and have windows on it aswell ,BUT, not the best idea in the world (in my opinion)

ill do abit of shopping around, Dell do have other Laptops, like the precision range i think there built to last.

FloatingVoter

Most 3rd level colleges (and their labs) will be Windows-centric. In terms of recommended software you could be playing catchup. I know a Mac can do anything a Windows machine can (some things far better) but in your case going with the flow might be the better option.
Portability is definitely a big consideration if any team projects are involved.

oB1

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Most 3rd level colleges (and their labs) will be Windows-centric. In terms of recommended software you could be playing catchup. I know a Mac can do anything a Windows machine can (some things far better) but in your case going with the flow might be the better option.
Portability is definitely a big consideration if any team projects are involved.

I should have pointed out that, i have a high-end gaming PC at home, and i use that as my primary device on a day to day basis, so, the laptop would basically be used for college, and at home when im to lazy to get out of bed.

The Dell XPS 13z is an Ultrabook, maybe i should be looking at them, instead of the 15" and up range..?

Maybe i would find them kinda "finicky" or not as powerful,could be just me though..

so for argument sake, lets dismiss the Apple Products, and stick with windows machines.

Have any of you had to lug a laptop on your back, while commuting to/from college, is it that bad...

Jarren

This Sammy looks decent enough IMHO

33.8 cm (13.3"), 1366 x 768, LED non-glare
Core i5-2450M 2x 2.50 GHz (3.10 GHz Turbo), 6 GB RAM, 1.0 TB (HDD)
NVIDIA GeForce GT 520M 1.0 GB, DVD Burner
WLAN b/g/n, 3x USB 2.0, HDMI / VGA
1.3 MP Webcam, Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit

http://www.computeruniverse.net/products/e90448179/samsung-300v3a-s03-w7hp64.asp#data

Monotype

Yes 13-14'' would be ideal. I had a 13.3'' m1330 myself until it broke. Even 12'' mightn't be bad.
One thing that you could do with the SSD/HDD...
Since SSDs are quite dear for a reasonable size one, you could get a miniPCI-E 64GB SSD for installing your OS to and keep your big HDD. The performance of these wouldn't be quite up to regular SSD but still fairly snappy.

Alternatively, just spend €200 on a 256GB SSD and buy an enclosure for a spare HDD if you run out of space.

BostonB

I think you need to define what type of gaming. I mean is it solitaire or some 3D thing?

Jarren

RobertHopkins wrote: »

The Dell XPS 15z stands out to me, at a reasonable price.

I'm afraid not


http://www.dell.com/ie/p/xps-15z/fs

Very overpriced IMHO

oB1

BostonB wrote: »

I think you need to define what type of gaming. I mean is it solitaire or some 3D thing?

Well, as i said in a previous post, i already have my gaming PC, so the laptop wouldn't really be for that, more so for "Light" gaming, FPS, RPG.. nothing to crazy like crisis or anything

oB1

Jarren wrote: »

I'm afraid not


http://www.dell.com/ie/p/xps-15z/fs

Very overpriced IMHO

To me , it aint that bad considering what you get for it:D

Jarren

No worries

Can you post the specs/price of that Dell ?

oB1

Jarren wrote: »

No worries

Can you post the specs/price of that Dell ?

Sure

It depends on how custom you want it, but, for what i want/need:

>> 6GB Ram
>> 750GB HD (Will probably buy an SSD for it, myself)
>> i7
>> 2GB NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 525M
>> 8 cell Battery

For: €1,179 - little pricey, i suppose :P

Maybe i should look at others, as its not that customizable, you get what you pay for.

Monotype

Assuming that you won't need this until September, I'd say to wait until next month for those CPUs, especially with that kind of budget. Apparently they're ready to launch but they're just waiting to clear the backlog of present CPUs.

oB1

Monotype wrote: »

Assuming that you won't need this until September, I'd say to wait until next month for those CPUs, especially with that kind of budget. Apparently they're ready to launch but they're just waiting to clear the backlog of present CPUs.

Yeah your dead right.

I wont be getting this straight away, i need to save a little anyway.

Luckily im still in full time work for another few months before i go back so i can work up the cash for a decent machine.

Maybe, i am a Dell fan, i do like there stuff, BUT i suppose there are others out there.

MiniNukinfuts

You could do what i did, get a macbook pro, then i installed a SSD in the main sata bay, then i bought a kit that allowed me to remove the optical drive and install a HDD in it's place. I use a 128GB SSD for booting the OS and apps, and the 750GB for other stuff and the windows 7 partition.

I'm a computing student too (computer science) and I find the mac is much better for my needs, nearly all windows apps are available on mac, and they very few that aren't have equivalents that are just as good. Also, all things media related are brilliant on macs over windows machines (photoshop, movie editing etc)

Also, supposedly, the MBP range are getting upgraded to be the same form factor as the macbook airs

oB1

MiniNukinfuts wrote: »

You could do what i did, get a macbook pro, then i installed a SSD in the main sata bay, then i bought a kit that allowed me to remove the optical drive and install a HDD in it's place. I use a 128GB SSD for booting the OS and apps, and the 750GB for other stuff and the windows 7 partition.

I'm a computing student too (computer science) and I find the mac is much better for my needs, nearly all windows apps are available on mac, and they very few that aren't have equivalents that are just as good. Also, all things media related are brilliant on macs over windows machines (photoshop, movie editing etc)

Also, supposedly, the MBP range are getting upgraded to be the same form factor as the macbook airs

Yeah that has been something i have been considering for along time now.

i always wanted a MacBook Pro.. so thats not a bad idea.

another laptop im considering is the Dell Precision M4600 - might be abit chunky though.

MiniNukinfuts

The M6400 are good, my brother has an older version from work and oddly enough it's lasted for 3 years.

But they look rather pricey for a windows machine, normally that sort of money would get an alienware/ apple laptop

oB1

MiniNukinfuts wrote: »

The M6400 are good, my brother has an older version from work and oddly enough it's lasted for 3 years.

But they look rather pricey for a windows machine, normally that sort of money would get an alienware/ apple laptop

yeah the price is a killer, but that's the kind of cash id have i suppose to splash out on a new laptop... im still working full time, so, i have time to save up for one.

MiniNukinfuts

RobertHopkins wrote: »

yeah the price is a killer, but that's the kind of cash id have i suppose to splash out on a new laptop... im still working full time, so, i have time to save up for one.

Is it wise splashing all the cash on a single laptop?

oB1

MiniNukinfuts wrote: »

Is it wise splashing all the cash on a single laptop?

I think it is, when ill be making use of it for the next 4 years at least, for lab / project work and whatever else.

you think not? - its opinions im looking for

MiniNukinfuts

RobertHopkins wrote: »

I think it is, when ill be making use of it for the next 4 years at least, for lab / project work and whatever else.

you think not? - its opinions im looking for

Well, i'd personally wait and see before i'd start college before spending big on a laptop that would last me for years. I waited 3 months after starting my degree before I decided on what laptop I need. It might turn out that you need a portable, lightweight laptop with a good battery.

I'm bringing a mac up again, because I used to be in your position. I spent about 3 months looking at various laptops, and in the end, I found that a MBP was the machine for me. There was a close tie between that and the HP envy 14. But the mbp won because of it's battery life

Monotype

The same can be said about windows, that you can do just about everything that you could do with a Mac. I'm not bashing Apple, but I do think their products are a little overpriced. I have to say their designs are nice and compact but most manufacturers have done their own spinoffs/clones so it's easy enough to pick up something similar for a couple of hundred euro cheaper.

There's a vast load of laptops with the approximate 13.3'' size.
http://search.laptopsdirect.ie/nav/screensize/02/type/laptops/0

The only thing is that most of these have only got integrated graphics. Those that don't, have very low end dedicated cards which aren't really better. The situation regarding a decent dedicated card in a small laptop has actually disimproved over the past few years!
So if you want a dedicated card, I think you'll have to look at a larger size.

Integrated graphics have come a long way though. Just to put it into perspective, Intel's new graphics would be able to run source engine games easily enough (i.e., half-life 2, portal 2) if you turn down the details a little. Beyond that, you will start struggling.

I'd say one thing to make sure you have is USB 3. I'm starting to use it myself lately and I'd say the drives will be flooding out a lot in the next few years, so it's definitely something useful to make your computer last.

Keep an eye on this thread here for small gaming notebooks released or coming soon. Of course you might find it hard to get some of them in Europe.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/what-notebook-should-i-buy/662161-thin-light-11-14-notebooks-gaming-worth-compendium.html#

Jarren

RobertHopkins wrote: »

Sure

It depends on how custom you want it, but, for what i want/need:

>> 6GB Ram
>> 750GB HD (Will probably buy an SSD for it, myself)
>> i7
>> 2GB NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 525M
>> 8 cell Battery

For: €1,179 - little pricey, i suppose :P

Maybe i should look at others, as its not that customizable, you get what you pay for.

Well , you can customize here

http://www.deviltech.de/deviltech.php/sid/a61cb21c2fdeaab727651b0e12e0ef6a/cl/details/cnid/8a142c3e4143562a5.46426637/anid/0a947da3aecec8cc5.59351058/Devil-5700/

http://www.novatech.co.uk/modifier.html?s=NNB-904

http://www.mysn.de/detail.asp?userid=D39563EAF2EA45A6A70A23CE615AFA3A&KategorienOrder=010;020;010;020&bestellnr=adqj0001

or

Get smaller notebook/ultrabook
http://www.amazon.fr/Samsung-NP530U3B-A02FR-Ultrabook-i5-2467M-Windows/dp/B006IM967C/ref=pd_cp_computers_0

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/toshiba-satellite-z830-10u-13-3-ultrabook-metallic-grey-11486165-pdt.html?srcid=369&xtor=AL-11&cmpid=aff~HotUKDeals~

Dannysaurus

You could try holding off for a bittie and wait till the Gigabyte U2442/v is released?
Apparently it's due this summer, and it's an ultrabook packing a GT 640m, which is sufficient enough for gaming xD

Fionnan O Neachtain

http://www.pcworld.ie/Product/SAMSUNG-Series-3-NP305E5A-156andquot-Laptop-andndash-Silver/310469/301 i think this is reasonably priced not sure about the amd processor but i saw a similar one in the actual shop €650 euro i5 not sure what one
but it was clocked at 2.4Ghz 6 gigs of ram 500gb hd nvidia 520mx sounds perfect for the level of gaming you are talking about check instore

oB1

Thanks to everyone for the opinions / advice!

I still have to make my mind up, but i will take the next 2/3 months to decide before i head back in September

Im still leaning toward the Dell Precision , but i suppose its a good idea to shop around, maybe ill take a trip to PC World, Harvey Normans etc.

MiniNukinfuts

Yup, a trip to PC world would be brilliant. Was in my local PC world today, and they are stocking nearly all of the laptops we mentioned above

a clanger

You can get the Dell 15z for $699 in the US and the fare from Dublin is €585 with BA at the moment.....Around the same as you were going to pay here ...with a free trip to NYC included . I'm about to buy the 15z but missed getting it in J and R for $649:mad: which would have been a bargain..

MiniNukinfuts

a clanger wrote: »

You can get the Dell 15z for $699 in the US and the fare from Dublin is €585 with BA at the moment.....Around the same as you were going to pay here ...with a free trip to NYC included . I'm about to buy the 15z but missed getting it in J and R for $649:mad: which would have been a bargain..

You could use a Post Forwarding service to get it from america.

oB1

a clanger wrote: »

You can get the Dell 15z for $699 in the US and the fare from Dublin is €585 with BA at the moment.....Around the same as you were going to pay here ...with a free trip to NYC included . I'm about to buy the 15z but missed getting it in J and R for $649:mad: which would have been a bargain..

Awesome idea!

I am a frequent flyer with BA, and im a member of there exec club so i have Avios Points to use..worth a looksie

But, do Dell have shops over there, like where would i pick one up from?

for college you'll want a laptop that's reasonably light as you'll be lugging it around a lot.
13 inch or 14 inch screen is the sweetspot as you'll get a light laptop and a usuable sized screen.
an ivy bridge ultrabook (with HD 4000 graphics) would be the ideal and will last you a few years.
expect to pay $900 in the US for this type of laptop as they come out over the next few months.
something like this: -

http://www.cnet.com/laptops/sony-vaio-t13112fxs/4505-3121_7-35288064.html?autoplay=true&tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody%3b1n

Dannysaurus

glasso wrote: »

for college you'll want a laptop that's reasonably light as you'll be lugging it around a lot.
13 inch or 14 inch screen is the sweetspot as you'll get a light laptop and a usuable sized screen.
an ivy bridge ultrabook (with HD 4000 graphics) would be the ideal and will last you a few years.
expect to pay $900 in the US for this type of laptop as they come out over the next few months.
something like this: -

http://www.cnet.com/laptops/sony-vaio-t13112fxs/4505-3121_7-35288064.html?autoplay=true&tag=contentMain%3bcontentBody%3b1n

The Gigabyte U2442. Just, nom.
Fast enough and packs a GT 640M for decent enough gaming on the go.

Dannysaurus

Dannysaurus wrote: »

The Gigabyte U2442. Just, nom.
Fast enough and packs a GT 640M for decent enough gaming on the go.

will be pricey I'd say with that 640m option tho. could kill battery too unless there is an option to turn-off the additional gpu.

Dannysaurus

glasso wrote: »

will be pricey I'd say with that 640m option tho. could kill battery too unless there is an option to turn-off the additional gpu.

Yeah, though it comes with Optimus, so that's a plus. AND IT'S SO PRETTY. But the only reason that caught my eye was because some other sites were saying it offers options with a 650M. Upon seeing that I muttered "Sold..."

Dannysaurus

Dannysaurus wrote: »

Yeah, though it comes with Optimus, so that's a plus. AND IT'S SO PRETTY. But the only reason that caught my eye was because some other sites were saying it offers options with a 650M. Upon seeing that I muttered "Sold..."

yeah I'm going to pick up an ultrabook when there's a bit of competition in the ivy bridge ultrabook market and prices are decent - probably in the autumn. big gaming horsepower not vital for me but a nice to have.

a clanger

Robert Hopkins

J and R currently have them on Amazon at $679...well they did this morning when I ordered one. . I'm sure you can do pickup at the store in NYC but that might add a few dollars city tax . A post forwarding service would not be advisable as you would be subject to customs. I've looked on amazon and can't seem to find the $679 offer ...there were ten about 3 hours ago ...gotta keep checking !.

oB1

a clanger wrote: »

Robert Hopkins

J and R currently have them on Amazon at $679...well they did this morning when I ordered one. . I'm sure you can do pickup at the store in NYC but that might add a few dollars city tax . A post forwarding service would not be advisable as you would be subject to customs. I've looked on amazon and can't seem to find the $679 offer ...there were ten about 3 hours ago ...gotta keep checking !.

Ok Cool

Its got me thinking - might head over, for a night, grab the laptop , and head back the following day.

With my SkyMiles, and the discount id be getting on the laptop, it might be worthwhile

Cheers

oB1

Thought id bring the thread to life again.

Im now considering getting the Lenovo X220 - Found HERE

Opinions?

Cina

If I was to buy an Ultrabook I'd go SSD, which they don't have. External HD's are so cheap nowadays that you could just use one of them for storage.

Lenovo's are reliable, I have one for work but they're quite clunky and ugly.

oB1

Cina wrote: »

If I was to buy an Ultrabook I'd go SSD, which they don't have. External HD's are so cheap nowadays that you could just use one of them for storage.

Lenovo's are reliable, I have one for work but they're quite clunky and ugly.

Yeah i totally agree RE: Clunky & ugly - although i "Think" they may have got a refresh recently as, my mate, who just took up employment a few months ago, got a brand new X220, actually looks very nice.

Its a work horse i think, made for the business.

no big issue RE: an SSD, id probably just buy one and chuck it in.

The laptops primary function will be college, i have a powerful desktop at home for everything else.

I just looked at the LENOVO Webiste though, and it seems the price has sky rocketed :S... last time i check the X220 with i5, 4gb ram, and 11.5" display was like 800e, now its over 1,000!?!... weird..

Monotype

Is it 12.5'' ones that you're considering?

I haven't checked around for the best deals, but I definitely wouldn't go for the X220 Lenovo when you can get the X230. There's substantial differences between the lower models in both for only €25 difference.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/ieweb/LenovoPortal/en_IE/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=FD6DB49790C7411D933567FC361231FB&current-category-id=53342ADC5C975FF80F4AFF71D3FFECA7&action=init

Keep your eyes open for 3XXX series CPUs as these are the newer ones. Better graphics and processing performance, so a lower clock speed doesn't mean slower.

Edit: Actually the lower model doesn't include a new generation CPU without spending extra money.

c_man

Have you considered getting a standardish (i.e. the E500 range) laptop and remote desktoping into your high end home machine for intensive stuff?

oB1

Monotype wrote: »

Is it 12.5'' ones that you're considering?

I haven't checked around for the best deals, but I definitely wouldn't go for the X220 Lenovo when you can get the X230. There's substantial differences between the lower models in both for only €25 difference.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/ieweb/LenovoPortal/en_IE/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=FD6DB49790C7411D933567FC361231FB&current-category-id=53342ADC5C975FF80F4AFF71D3FFECA7&action=init

Keep your eyes open for 3XXX series CPUs as these are the newer ones. Better graphics and processing performance, so a lower clock speed doesn't mean slower.

Edit: Actually the lower model doesn't include a new generation CPU without spending extra money.

Oops yep - i meant the 12.5" one

The X230 has the 3rd Gen i7 and the X220 only the 2nd gen one, so yeah good point

oB1

c_man wrote: »

Have you considered getting a standardish (i.e. the E500 range) laptop and remote desktoping into your high end home machine for intensive stuff?

yeah that's kinda where im leaning toward now, the cheaper, option.

As, it will be used during college, and when i get home ill probably jump on to the PC anyway, as i normally do.

Im looking at the Refurb MacBooks aswell - some awesome deals!!

But, i need a windows machine

Monotype

If you did see a mac that was an especially good deal, you could probably get windows on it for free/discounted - many computing courses offer free or heavily discounted copies of windows.

I think macs are overpriced most of the time though and be wary of buying older ones as the tech might not be as impressive as a new, cheap laptop.

oB1

Monotype wrote: »

If you did see a mac that was an especially good deal, you could probably get windows on it for free/discounted - many computing courses offer free or heavily discounted copies of windows.

I think macs are overpriced most of the time though and be wary of buying older ones as the tech might not be as impressive as a new, cheap laptop.

yeah im a windows man myself always have been etc.

I happily own an iPhone & and an iPad BUT never a Mac itself.

Id love to play around with it etc.

Getting windows software would not be an issue - i have an MSDN Subscription.

I know you can stick windows on a MAC, but i don't think its ideal - you know, supportability etc.

the model im looking at is, the late 2011 model, so last years one.

The newer ones, just released last week, are WAY OVERPRICED IMO.. this one i found was something like 800e ..

stevenf17

I'm in the same situation as yourself. I've a homebuilt gaming rig at home and going into 4th year now so want to get myself a decent light laptop for on the move.

Don't know how much mula you've got to spend but what i think i'm going to do is get the ASUS UX32 (once it comes out). Then stick a 256gb ssd in it long with another 8GB of RAM.
Think its gonna work out at around €1380 including shipping. But for that you get an i7 ultrabook with dedicated nvidia 620M graphics(not great but much better than integrated), 256GB SSD and 10Gigs of Ram(there's 2 soldered to the mobo and another 2gb dimm which i'll swap for the 8gb) throw in the fact its got a 1080p IPS display, is only 18mm thick and only weights 1.5kg, its a combo that at the moment that i don't think can be beaten (in mobility and specs anyway)

Then again if you wouldn't feel safe taking apart a brand new laptop once you get it then ignore anything I've written above!

Got the idea from here http://teksyndicate.com/reviews/2012/06/23/asus-zenbook-ux32vd-teardown-ssd-upgrade-ram-upgrade-gaming-benchmark-and-review

ED E

On mobile so im not gonna read the whole thread, but ill give my 2cents:

Expecting a laptop to last 4y of daily use is a bit too optimistic IMO, battery will last 2-2.5 max and are rarely worth replacing. And there is wear and tear on everything else.

You dont need power, it can be nice, but isnt needed. A good atom will do.

Another point is do you want to bring your bag with expensive lappy to the pub? If not buy something that you'll be comfortable locking somewhere on campus, ie cheap.


Most useful thing for programming is screen real estate, spend your cash on one IPS or two 1080s if your choice can drive em.

Jarren

It's already available on Amazon.de

http://www.amazon.de/UX32VD-R4002V-Ultrabook-Intel-3517U-NVIDIA/dp/B007ZXI0PM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340981624&sr=8-1