Sinn Fein- Never forget

Einhard

Crooked Jack wrote: »

As for this fascination with picking them up from prison, I really dont get what that's all about. So what? Should they have walked. should they have been tied to the back of a tractor and dragged across the country. Give over, it's a non-issue.

This is astonishing. A prominent member of Sinn Fein, a TD, and a father of the former mayor of Killarney, collects from prison men convicted of the violent killing of a servant of the state, and you claim it's a none issue? Does the hypocrisy of SF know no bounds? What if Eamon o' Cuiv welcomed at the jail gates Martin McDermott, the man who mowed down Garda Gary McLoughlin in Donegal in 2009? Would you claim it a none issue? Of course not- and no decent minded person, but obviously when it comes to the crimes and actions of IRA and SF, decency goes out the window.

Monty Burnz

Crooked Jack wrote: »

His murder. And again I'd point out that SF condemned it as soon as it happened. Nor did they campaign for their early release, they called for everybody to live up to the commitments they made in the GFA and stop cherrypicking it.

This was after they assured us that the armed robbery and murder in Limerick were not part of their campaign to free Northern Ireland, right?

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Other bereaved families on all sides had to swallow the bitter pill of seeing prisoners be released, what was so different about the grief over Jerry McCabe that his killers should stay locked up forever.

I reckon they should all have been allowed rot, but sure what do I know? I'm sure it's a great victory for humanity that the likes of Michael Stone were allowed out on the streets again. And besides, didn't SF/IRA assure us that the robbery and murder in Limerick were not part of the campaign of freedom?

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Allowing the free state government to pick which bits of the agreement they liked would have only given the nod to the brits and unionists to do the same.
As for this fascination with picking them up from prison, I really dont get what that's all about. So what? Should they have walked. should they have been tied to the back of a tractor and dragged across the country. Give over, it's a non-issue.

I suppose it would be no more offensive that the Queen visiting Northern Ireland and awarding medals to members of the Parachute Regiment, or something along those lines. I'm sure the Shinners would be fine with that sort of thing.

Chuck Stone

gaffer91 wrote: »

Would you rather we talked about Enniskillen, Birmingham, Kingsmill, Guildford, Canary Wharf, Shankhill etc. and all the other civilians killed?

Seems decided one sided - what a surprise. JMcC was one person of over 3000 who lost their lives in the troubles.

People can relate to the Jerry McCabe one because it was in the Republic and it is beyond the pale for most murderers even to murder a Garda.

That's truly weird. He was a Garda tasked with protecting cash in transit. Why is his killing so much more shocking than that of, say, a civilian? Police all over the world die in the course of their jobs.

The behaviour of leading SF members for the whole Fiasco was especially disgraceful, even for them- trying to get them off, visiting them in jail and then finally picking them up. No shame whatsoever.

I agree with you that the release of them was handled very badly but their release had a political aspect - that is self-evident - and the double standards of people in the south on this matter are truly appalling.

The Alliance Party of Northern Ireland (APNI) accused the Irish government of double standards after it was disclosed that those convicted of killing Jerry McCabe, who was a Detective in the Garda Síochána (the Irish police), would not be included in the early release scheme.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch99.htm#Apr

I'd agree with that ^^ assessment.

Sunnyisland

Chuck Stone wrote: »

And being genuinely outraged by the death of one person you've never met 16 years on would be evidence of an inability to move on and would probably be indicative of emotional dysfunction.

This thread is not genuinely about the people killed, Its more to do about scaremongering people and future SF voters.FG/FF/LAB are shaking at the support SF are getting,Expect more drama threads soon.

Monty Burnz

realies wrote: »

This thread is not genuinely about the people killed, Its more to do about scaremongering people and future SF voters.FG/FF/LAB are shaking at the support SF are getting,Expect more drama threads soon.

I've said it before - I'd love to see SF in power in the short to medium term.

Crooked Jack

Einhard wrote: »

This is astonishing. A prominent member of Sinn Fein, a TD, and a father of the former mayor of Killarney, collects from prison men convicted of the violent killing of a servant of the state, and you claim it's a none issue? Does the hypocrisy of SF know no bounds? What if Eamon o' Cuiv welcomed at the jail gates Martin McDermott, the man who mowed down Garda Gary McLoughlin in Donegal in 2009? Would you claim it a none issue? Of course not- and no decent minded person, but obviously when it comes to the crimes and actions of IRA and SF, decency goes out the window.

Do you know what hypocrisy actually means? SF called for their release, along with all other IRA prisoners, as part of the GFA. Please, point out the hypocrisy. In fact the only hypocrites were the Free State government who were some of the architects of the GFA, put the GFA to the people, got a 96 per cent 'Yes' vote and still refused to implement it fully.

whitelines

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The first post was that loyalists only attacked Catholics in response to PIRA attacks so the PIRA is partly responsible for sectarian attacks in the North. The worst sectarian attacks were carried out by the LVF who operated at a time that the PIRA were barely active and were not involved in or accused of any attacks on innocent protestants.

First of all, LVF operations differed little from many UVF/UFF operations. The point I was making was that to talk about LVF operations was as relevant to the prevailing narrative as to talk about RIRA operations.

When Loyalists said "you stop and we'll stop" - they meant ALL murders not just those targeted at 'civilians'.

Einhard

realies wrote: »

This thread is not genuinely about the people killed, Its more to do about scaremongering people and future SF voters.FG/FF/LAB are shaking at the support SF are getting,Expect more drama threads soon.

Scaremongering generally involves inventing or exaggerating issues to frighten an audience. The problem for your idiotic thesis, is that none of the issues rasied in this thread is invented, ir exaggerated. SF has always been a mouthpiece and chief apologist for the IRA; senior SF members were members of the IRA and aided them in their camapign of murder, terror, and torture; the IRA killed many innocent men, women, and children; the IRA killed Gerry McCabe; Martin Ferris smuggled guns for the IRA; Martin Ferris welcomed the killers of Gerry McCabe from prison.

All true. To be honest, I can see SF move increasingly towards the mainstream of Irish politics, and I welcome that because of the normalisation that it will bring to Irish politics. As mentioned, in a decade or so, I could even consider voting for them. My disdain isn't so much for SF as currently constructed, but for all the many supporters who will consistently and hypocrtically try to whitewash over the appalling suffering that SF conspired in with the IRA. I think anyone who engages in such activities has a fundamentally warped moral compass, and to be frank, that scares me far more that Sinn Fein the political party ever will.

Chuck Stone

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So I should only have been temporarily outraged, and then forget about it? How long should I have been outraged? A week? Two?

I don't have the training to help you with your outrage I'm afraid so maybe you should ask someone more appropriate about your issue.

Presumably you will be posting about the injustice of how the British ended up controlling Northern Ireland in another thread soon, even though the events involved were centuries ago.

You haven't been paying much attention then. Use the search function and you'll see that I haven't once started a thread about 800 years of this that and the other. I'm smart enough to know that such issues are never black and white.

Pity the same can't be said for the anyone-but-SF usual suspects.

Crooked Jack

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This was after they assured us that the armed robbery and murder in Limerick were not part of their campaign to free Northern Ireland, right?

I reckon they should all have been allowed rot, but sure what do I know? I'm sure it's a great victory for humanity that the likes of Michael Stone were allowed out on the streets again. And besides, didn't SF/IRA assure us that the robbery and murder in Limerick were not part of the campaign of freedom?

So all the prisoners should have stayed in prison. The peace process falls apart and were still at war. Yup, great plan. The IRA admitted they were their men but acting without Army Council authorisation.

I suppose it would be no more offensive that the Queen visiting Northern Ireland and awarding medals to members of the Parachute Regiment, or something along those lines. I'm sure the Shinners would be fine with that sort of thing.

That's just too preposterous for words. You're resorting to childish tactics now. It's simple, either you supported the GFA or you didnt. You cant cherry pick it.

Einhard

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Do you know what hypocrisy actually means? SF called for their release, along with all other IRA prisoners, as part of the GFA. Please, point out the hypocrisy. In fact the only hypocrites were the Free State government who were some of the architects of the GFA, put the GFA to the people, got a 96 per cent 'Yes' vote and still refused to implement it fully.

Do you know how to read a post? I didn't state that their release was hypocritical. I didn't even state that Ferris' welcoming them from prison was hypocritical. I stated that claiming this latter action was a none issue was hypocrtical in the extreme. And it is. And you know it. Were members of FG or FF to have such close contact with Garda killers, SF would rightly be hopping up and down in outrage. There's your hypocrisy.

whitelines

charlemont wrote: »

So you believe Irish people should be treated as second class citizens in the 6 counties ?

Are you Irish yourself ?

According to you blacks still wouldn't be voting in The US and women wouldn't be holding management positions in England. Things change - and you don't need to kill thousands to bring about such changes.

Crooked Jack

Einhard wrote: »

Do you know how to read a post? I didn't state that their release was hypocritical. I didn't even state that Ferris' welcoming them from prison was hypocritical. I stated that claiming this latter action was a none issue was hypocrtical in the extreme. And it is. And you know it. Were members of FG or FF to have such close contact with Garda killers, SF would rightly be hopping up and down in outrage. There's your hypocrisy.

That's still not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if i said, "collecting people from jail is wrong, except for when Martin Ferris collected Jerry McCabe's killers."
As for your FF and FG analogy. What the hell does that mean? That's some hypothetical situation you just made up. Perhaps hypothetical is the word you're thinking of 'cause it's not hypocrisy.

Chuck Stone

Einhard wrote: »

For someone who raises the issues of Israeli actions in the Levant so often, it's nothing short of double standards for you to attack those of us who prefer not to sweep these murders under the table.

WTF are you on about? Are you mixing me up with someone else?

When/where do I raise issues of Israeli actions?

Again, perhaps you should use the search function to see that I have never once started a thread about Israel.

Crooked Jack

whitelines wrote: »

According to you blacks still wouldn't be voting in The US and women wouldn't be holding management positions in England. Things change - and you don't need to kill thousands to bring about such changes.

Sadly, when you're dealing with the brits it seems you do. Name one concession Ireland ever got from Britain without the use or threat of violence.

Einhard

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That's still not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if i said, "collecting people from jail is wrong, except for when Martin Ferris collected Jerry McCabe's killers."
As for your FF and FG analogy. What the hell does that mean? That's some hypothetical situation you just made up. Perhaps hypothetical is the word you're thinking of 'cause it's not hypocrisy.

It's pretty simple. If Michael Martin were to collect convicted killers up from prison, SF would condemn him outright. And rightly so. Please don't pretend that it would be any other way. They are hypocrites because they hold others to standards which they themselves have always flouted and ignored.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

WTF are you on about? Are you mixing me up with someone else?

When/where do I raise issues of Israeli actions?

Again, perhaps you should use the search function to see that I have never once started a thread about Israel.

Apologies, got the wrong person.

Monty Burnz

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That's just too preposterous for words. You're resorting to childish tactics now. It's simple, either you supported the GFA or you didnt. You cant cherry pick it.

I didn't. What's childish about that?

whitelines

In regards to policing young nationalists feel they can join it now because it is no longer the armed wing of a corrupt Stormont regime. Nothing to do with IRA intimidation.

Ye right. Even The UDR had 17% RC membership prior to PIRA intimidation. Yes, THAT UDR.

As for ending gerrymandering or any kind of equality I find it laughable that you think these would have come about on their own or through peaceful means. Stormont gave its answer to the civil rights movement when they beat people off the streets and the brits gave their answer when they shot its people dead in Derry.

In that case why do blacks have the vote in Alabama? They faced the same problems when they started their civil rights campaign. They didn't need to murder thousands. In fact, we can imagine what would have happened to them if they'd tried.

No, loyalists did this because they were motivated by blind hatred and sectarianism and had little or no political aim beyond killing fenians ("yabba dabba do any taig will do" is about as coherent a political strategy as they ever developed.) Any book on the troubles will show you that while the IRA operated as an army and picked military and economic targets, Loyalist attacks were random, savage and often alcohol fueled.

Wow. No bigotry there then.

Monty Burnz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't have the training to help you with your outrage I'm afraid so maybe you should ask someone more appropriate about your issue.

So there's no chance I'll ever hear you expressing outrage about some action or inaction by the US or the Syrians or the Taleban or the Brits or whatever that doesn't directly affect you? If you ever do that, I can safely assume that is you pretending to be outraged?

Good to know.

blahfckingblah

Im really glad this thread was made, hopefully now I will be able to come back to this part of boards as often as i used to without seeing every interesting thread hijacked by "but what about Jerry McCabe". I said hopefully not realistically.

Crooked Jack

Einhard wrote: »

It's pretty simple. If Michael Martin were to collect convicted killers up from prison, SF would condemn him outright. And rightly so. Please don't pretend that it would be any other way. They are hypocrites because they hold others to standards which they themselves have always flouted and ignored.

You are calling them hypocrites based on some imagined situation that has never happened?
Alright, lets play your weird wee game.
Ahem. If FG welcomed an alien invasion of earth tomorrow, they would be hypocrites because Im pretty sure they have an anti alien invasion policy. Maybe. The bloody hypocrites.

Nah, this is daft, how about we just stick to reality.

Crooked Jack

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I didn't. What's childish about that?

Fine then. You didnt support it. So just out of curiosity, what was your alternative?

Chuck Stone

Einhard wrote: »

I'm outraged not simply because of the murder of Gerry McCabe, and not simply because of the murder of innocent men, women, and children, but also because an organisation which was intimately involved with the group that carried out those murders now seeks to present a sanitised version of itself to the public, whilst incorporating at the highest echelons people who actively collaborated in the murder and torture of innocent people.

First of all you should perhaps try to widen your camera angle a little when you project single paragraph snap-shots of a complex conflict rather than focussing on the violence of one particular side.

Second, welcome to the nature of conflict and peace settlements on planet Earth. Enjoy your stay.

Monty Burnz

blahfckingblah wrote: »

Im really glad this thread was made, hopefully now I will be able to come back to this part of boards as often as i used to without seeing every interesting thread hijacked by "but what about Jerry McCabe". I said hopefully not realistically.

If Sinn Fein actually dealt with this properly, their supporters here on boards wouldn't have to desperately try to quell any discussion on it when it does come up. The failure is with SF, not with the people who disapprove of the murder of Gardaí and throwing parties for the murderers.

Monty Burnz

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Fine then. You didnt support it. So just out of curiosity, what was your alternative?

A just peace - where those who committed atrocities paid the penalty for them. So basically what we have, only without all the loyalist and republican killers back on the streets. You'll object that that would be hard to sell to the terrorists. You are undoubtedly right.

Crooked Jack

whitelines wrote: »

Ye right. Even The UDR had 17% RC membership prior to PIRA intimidation. Yes, THAT UDR.

What has catholic got to do with anything, Im talking about nationalists. Im also talking about the RUC, not the UDR (the sectarian nature of which has been well outlined in this and other threads, as has that of the RUC.) I could win all my arguments too if i started talking about different things altogether.

In that case why do blacks have the vote in Alabama? They faced the same problems when they started their civil rights campaign. They didn't need to murder thousands. In fact, we can imagine what would have happened to them if they'd tried.

That's right, the old stormont regime, the RUC, the B SPecials and the Orange Order were in charge in Alabama. It was the exact same situation. how could I have forgotten that?

Wow. No bigotry there then.

Correct. again, a brief look into modern Irish history from any number of books will quickly reveal the true nature of loyalism.

Hannibal

Certain people on here somehow manage to blame the whole Troubles on republicans and in particular the IRA or Sinn Féin.

We can only be thankful that these same people with such a narrow focus were never involved in conflict resolution that brought about peace in any way, shape or form.

Monty Burnz

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You are calling them hypocrites based on some imagined situation that has never happened?
Alright, lets play your weird wee game.
Ahem. If FG welcomed an alien invasion of earth tomorrow, they would be hypocrites because Im pretty sure they have an anti alien invasion policy. Maybe. The bloody hypocrites.

Nah, this is daft, how about we just stick to reality.

I don't think you dealt with that one very well tbh. Point to Einhard.

blahfckingblah

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If Sinn Fein actually dealt with this properly, their supporters here on boards wouldn't have to desperately try to quell any discussion on it when it does come up. The failure is with SF, not with the people who disapprove of the murder of Gardaí and throwing parties for the murderers.

thats a fairly feeble response to be honest, if you want to contact an official Sinn Fein representative you wouldnt do it on boards you could however try their website for contact details. Instead many here use it like a good hand in a game of cards to throw out whenever they have no solid arguments for the topic on hand.

Crooked Jack

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If Sinn Fein actually dealt with this properly, their supporters here on boards wouldn't have to desperately try to quell any discussion on it when it does come up. The failure is with SF, not with the people who disapprove of the murder of Gardaí and throwing parties for the murderers.

Sinn Fein dealt with it the day it happened and condemned it. It's others who keep raising the spectre of the poor man to use as a political football.
As I said earlier, SF are the only party calling for an all out truth and reconciliation commission,. Something that could yield real results for all victims instead of this exploitation of individual deaths.