Sinn Fein- Never forget

gaffer91

donvito99 wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned;

Fighting for independence (E'rebody) - Grand
Fighting over the interpretation of Indopend. (FF + FG) - Grand
"Fighting" (murdering) once a State has formed and matured (SF + IRA) - :mad:

This argument has been put to bed several times. Reasons the PIRA were different from the Old IRA, the old IRA:

1. Had popular support (whether they had a mandate for 1916 is another matter for another thread, but the IRA from 1919-21 certainly enjoyed the support of the majority of the population).
2. Did not regularly massacre civilians. And before someone says "But the provos never intended to" (as if that makes any difference) :rolleyes: then what about Kingsmill?

Monty Burnz

Ellis Dee wrote: »

As for this sentence: "It is also important to remember that it was Martin Ferris who picked up the murderers (because this is what they are;" - it is easy to make such a libellous statement from behind the safety of mamma Internet's skirts, but I know you would never have the courage to make such a statement under your own name.

Which part of the truth of this do you disagree with as a matter of interest? The legal nicety as to whether they were convicted of murder or manslaughter?

Einhard

Ellis Dee wrote: »

As for your question about why so many people vote for Sinn Fein, the answer is because not everyone is a member of the national cringe brigade and many of us have some sense of our nation's history and did not allow ourselves to be blindfolded and brainwashed during that dark period when Section 31 prevented one side of the arguments from being properly presented and the minds of many members of a whole generation were poisoned by the likes of Conor Cruise O´Brien, Hugh Leonard, Own Arse and so many others who would bring shame to the title "Judas sheep"..:rolleyes:

I have always voted Sinn Fein and supported their aims, and I always will and I will never apologise to anyone for it. Many other people think the same way and hopefully their numbers will swell.;)

It's called democracy. Live with it!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes, it is democracy. And here we are engaged in open politican debate in a democratic society. If anything, the OP is not just living with democracy, but living democracy by opening this thread.

As for the national cringe brigade comment, to be honest, I cringe at any and all murders of innocent civilians. You might find that an odd thought, but then I s'pose you are a lognstanding SF supporter, so minimising the murder of innocent civilians should have long since ceased being a problem for you.

fasttalkerchat

Einhard wrote: »

I cut the the time period because I don't make present decisions based on the historical past. In a decade or so, should SF have shown that they have completely put that aspect of their past behind them, I'll consider voting for them. Not now though- only a few years after Sf members greeted the killers of gardai, and IRA members murdered people in their communities, north and south.

Your analogy is therefore daft, but that seems a common theme with SF supporters in thsi thread.

If you genuinely mean that you would vote sinn fein once the 15 years has passed then fair enough but that line is used all too often by people with no intention of supporting SF regardless

Chucky the tree

Ellis Dee wrote: »

And isn't it time to let McCabe rest and stop using him as a political football? As sad as any death is, his was only one of thousands in a conflict with hundreds of causes, big and small. Unlike most of the other victims, he was armed with a deadly weapon, well trained in its use - and he was a killer himself, having shot a young man whose name I bet you forget. At least he had a chance to defend himself.:) Now let him rest in peace.

This whole piece really shows a huge lack of class.

Ellis Dee

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Which part of the truth of this do you disagree with as a matter of interest? The legal nicety as to whether they were convicted of murder or manslaughter?

The court did not convict them of murder, but I suppose you know better. Maybe you would dispense with legal niceties altogether, and why not trials? Now I pose the same challenge to you: if you want to call people murderers, do so openly and not from behind a screen of Internet anonymity. Any coward can do that.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Paddy De Plasterer

Adams was in the IRA but he denies it. Ferris is a convicted gun smuggler under the laws of Our Republic. But why is he allowed to sit in the Dail. If he was a tax defaulter, or bankrupt he would be ineligible, but a gun smuggler is OK ?

Einhard

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If you genuinely mean that you would vote sinn fein once the 15 years has passed then fair enough but that line is used all too often by people with no intention of supporting SF regardless

Oh I doubt I will ever support Sinn Fein, but mostly because their economic policies are absolutely daft, and I see them as the new Fianna Fail- willing to say anything to get into power.

I accept most political parties, especially here in Ireland, were born of violence. However, as another has pointed out, FF or Labour or FG don't currently have top level members who were actively involved in violence, directly and indirectly.

If in 10 years, SF had shown themselves to have put that aspect of their past firmly behind then, and were putting forward policies and proposals that I found interesting, then I would of course consider them in an election. Unfortunately, the latter is not likely to happen.

Ellis Dee

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This whole piece really shows a huge lack of class.

If personal insults are what you get off on, be my guest. And I wonder just how you would define class?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Einhard

Ellis Dee wrote: »

The court did not convict them of murder, but I suppose you know better. Maybe you would dispense with legal niceties altogether, and why not trials? Now I pose the same challenge to you: if you want to call people murderers, do so openly and not from behind a screen of Internet anonymity. Any coward can do that.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now that's funny...an old school SF supporter accusing someone else of cowardiace. Nothing cowardly about massacring unarmed civilians at all now is there? Funny how quickly the and :cool: which usualyl characterise your posts slip into sneering :rolleyes: when you are challenged, or taken to task on an issue like this...

Shea O'Meara

Isn't that just it, 'Different when the IRA had popular support' ?
We tend to have a different moral stance based on the popularity of the action. Why is Garda Gerry McCabe any different from a british soldier, civilian or police officer? Favourites should not be played when weighing morals.
Before anyone jumps on this particular band wagon, I'm not comparing Osama Bin Laden to anyone, but I'll put forward his illegal murder was rejoiced on live TV...after all he wasn't popular.
We hear how the numerous politicians known to be crooked avoid prison because, that's the law they've not been found guilty. So the guys who killed McCabe get released, but they should be hung, never mind picked up? We can't pick and choose sides based on popularity if talking morals.
Sinn Fein are a legal recognised political party. Get over it. Raising the IRA in tandem with their rise in any poll is no different then banging on about the civil war. It's a crutch to beat them over the head with as if every card carrying Sinn Fein member has a balaclava and handgun.
Basically my point is stick to the politics at hand if criticising a political party.
Would we rather there was no party such as Sinn Fein to represent the Irish people with those views? I wonder, historically, what course is left to people who are denied a democratic voice, from any side?
'Sinn Fein - never forget' never move on, never learn, never change your opinion, never open your mind.

Einhard

Ellis Dee wrote: »

And I wonder just how you would define class?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Not denigrating the memory of a murdered servant of the state for crass political purposes is one definition...

invinciblePRSTV

Monty Burnz wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

That's some curious logic you've got going on there. In addition to you glossing over the violent histories of FF & FG on the basis of time, you're now downplaying the OIRA on the basis of 'scale', despite them being active during the same time period as the PIRA.

How many current members of FF/FG took an active role in civil war atrocities?

How many current members of the Labour Party played an active role in IRA activities?

Monty Burnz

Ellis Dee wrote: »

The court did not convict them of murder, but I suppose you know better. Maybe you would dispense with legal niceties altogether, and why not trials? Now I pose the same challenge to you: if you want to call people murderers, do so openly and not from behind a screen of Internet anonymity. Any coward can do that.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I would happily call them murderers in any public forum. You can roll your eyes all you like, but lining up beside murderers does not make you a big man.

fasttalkerchat

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

How many current members of the Labour Party played an active role in IRA activities?

Crooked Jack

gaffer91 wrote: »

This argument has been put to bed several times. Reasons the PIRA were different from the Old IRA, the old IRA:

1. Had popular support (whether they had a mandate for 1916 is another matter for another thread, but the IRA from 1919-21 certainly enjoyed the support of the majority of the population).
2. Did not regularly massacre civilians. And before someone says "But the provos never intended to" (as if that makes any difference) :rolleyes: then what about Kingsmill?

Amongst the nationalist community the PIRA, particularly at the start of the war, did have popular support and a tthe very least silent consent. Carrying out a 30 year long guerilla war without it would have been impossible.

The "old" IRA did indeed, sadly and shamefully, carry out a number of such massacres, eg Altnaveigh. In fact the reasons for Altnaveigh and Kingsmill are strikingly similar. Loyalists were massacring catholic civilians at random and in a desperate attempt to stop it the IRA showed that they could be just as brutal. Totally wrong on both counts and they shouldnt have stooped to the level of the pro-British scumbags.
It does however show how daft this free state revisionist "old IRA good, PIRA bad" mentality is. It's blatant hypocrisy. Hopefully that's that arguement put to bed.

As for this whole thread, these issues have been gone over a hundred times in the past week alone but there seem to be some very basic things people cant get their heads around.

Sinn Fein never killed anyone
Picking someone up from prison after they have been released (and selflessly stayed in longer than they needed to in order to protect the peace process) is not a crime.
Sinn Fein have never advocated "glossing over" the past and are indeed the only party in Ireland pushing for a truth commission in which everything on all sides would come out.

gaffer91

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

That's some curious logic you've got going on there. In addition to you glossing over the violent histories of FF & FG on the basis of time, you're now downplaying the OIRA on the basis of 'scale', despite them being active during the same time period as the PIRA.

Interesting perspective.

OIRA declared a ceasefire in the early 70s did they not? The provos were still on the rampage to the late 90s.

Let me make this clearer- OIRA- very, very bad. Provos- Much, much worse.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Gosh, you really have a thing about Sinn Fein, don't you? And I assume you hold the hundreds of thousands of Irish people who vote for the party in the same contempt.

I hold their views in contempt not the people themselves. I'm sure many of them bear no ill will they are just clueless and misguided and don't know any better.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

As for this sentence: "It is also important to remember that it was Martin Ferris who picked up the murderers (because this is what they are;" - it is easy to make such a libellous statement from behind the safety of mamma Internet's skirts, but I know you would never have the courage to make such a statement under your own name.

Come off it, it is generally accepted that there was rampant intimidation for the case. I'm hardly the first one to say it.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

And isn't it time to let McCabe rest and stop using him as a political football?

Yeah SF would love that wouldn't they? Conveniently sweeping it under the rug. You know they brought a lot of this on themselves, by first campaigning for the early release, then Adams popping in and out of prison to them and finally the fiasco with Ferris upon their release. They really have no shame.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Unlike most of the other victims, he was armed with a deadly weapon, well trained in its use - and he was a killer himself, having shot a young man whose name I bet you forget. At least he had a chance to defend himself.:)

Classic example of a SF supporter red herring that I mentioned earlier. "I condemn it but lets not forget..."

Ellis Dee wrote: »

As for your question about why so many people vote for Sinn Fein, the answer is because not everyone is a member of the national cringe brigade and many of us have some sense of our nation's history and did not allow ourselves to be blindfolded and brainwashed during that dark period when Section 31 prevented one side of the arguments from being properly presented and the minds of many members of a whole generation were poisoned by the likes of Conor Cruise O´Brien, Hugh Leonard, Own Arse and so many others who would bring shame to the title "Judas sheep"..:rolleyes:

I have always voted Sinn Fein and supported their aims, and I always will and I will never apologise to anyone for it. Many other people think the same way and hopefully their numbers will swell.;)

You always supported them? Even during the troubles? Denying SF free speech was wrong, what the IRA did was much worse.

golden lane

people always have selective memory........one of our most serious faults...

Crooked Jack

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This whole piece really shows a huge lack of class.

Unlike the incredibly classy Sinn Fein - Never Forget? It's like something you'd see spray painted on a wall up the Shankill.

I also felt that poster actually presented some interesting points that dont often get aired.

Monty Burnz

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

How many current members of the Labour Party played an active role in IRA activities?

No idea. How many current Irish politicians stand over political murder?

Hint: most of them belong to one party.

gaffer91

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Amongst the nationalist community the PIRA, particularly at the start of the war, did have popular support and a tthe very least silent consent. Carrying out a 30 year long guerilla war without it would have been impossible.

What the PIRA initially did, protecting catholic communities from loyalist mobs, was fine. What they did after the early years until the 90s was anything but.

SF never did have much support though-when they did start fielding candidates for election they were consistently and resoundingly beaten by SDLP in the early years.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The "old" IRA did indeed, sadly and shamefully, carry out a number of such massacres, eg Altnaveigh. In fact the reasons for Altnaveigh and Kingsmill are strikingly similar. Loyalists were massacring catholic civilians at random and in a desperate attempt to stop it the IRA showed that they could be just as brutal. Totally wrong on both counts and they shouldnt have stooped to the level of the pro-British scumbags.
It does however show how daft this free state revisionist "old IRA good, PIRA bad" mentality is. It's blatant hypocrisy. Hopefully that's that arguement put to bed.

Altnaveigh occurred after the war, in 1922, didn't it? Still despicable but it wasn't like those kind of massacres were occurring regularly from 1919-21 and people were still supporting the IRA. The 'campaign' in the 70s continued after and despite Kingsmill.

The Old IRA were probably worse than than people think but still nowhere near as bad as the provos.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Sinn Fein never killed anyone
Picking someone up from prison after they have been released (and selflessly stayed in longer than they needed to in order to protect the peace process) is not a crime.
Sinn Fein have never advocated "glossing over" the past and are indeed the only party in Ireland pushing for a truth commission in which everything on all sides would come out.

Sinn Fein and the IRA were two sides of the same coin. The likes of Gerry Adams, Ferris, McGuinness and Gerry Kelly up north were in the IRA. There is a lot of overlap. They are not separate entities.
The only reason they were in prison in the first place was because they murdered a garda, so don't try and make out like they were doing people a big favour by serving their sentence.

Monty Burnz

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Picking someone up from prison after they have been released (and selflessly stayed in longer than they needed to in order to protect the peace process) is not a crime.

There are a lot of actions that are not crimes that are still quite disgusting.

invinciblePRSTV

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

How many current members of the Labour Party played an active role in IRA activities?

It was of course a rhetorical question, the answer being: many.

So what have we learned then? simples, right from the foundation of the state and up through to the present day, men of violence, men who've fought against this very state have made the transition from that mindset to sitting at the cabinet table, in a government of a country they once violently opposed.

Monty Burnz

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It was of course a rhetorical question, the answer being: many.

Many??

Eamonn Gilmore is probably one. Who else?

murf313

@ OP.

Who the hell are you to tell people what party to vote for? People can make up they're own minds without the "holier than thou" brigade interfering! People like yourself seem to think its perfectly acceptable for FF/FG to have a bloody/murderous past but once sinn fein are mentioned ye start climbing up your ivory tower.... :rolleyes:

Dirk Gently

LordSutch wrote: »

So there you go gaffer91, its called the cycle of life (presumably for those with short memories) :mad:

Sadly the above pretty well sums up what we are up against. Either people just don't care about the SF past, or they're too young to remember the refusal of prominent Sinn Fein members to condemn bombings and murders on a weekly basis), others forget or dont care that some members of SF were actually in the PIRA!!! some young people possibly think that being in the IRA is/was a badge of honour, others use the blame Fianna Fail argument, and many cant be bothered to look into the SF manifesto closely enough to see what they are. SF are indeed on the rise (can't believe I said that), but what does that say about the electorate?

some people, like John Hume for example, realised that it's more desirable to have people talking and standing for election as opposed to planning bombings. He even saw that 20 years ago when his community was being torn apart by the same people he was brave enough to engage with and bring into the political process. Some people are mature enough to swallow some pride and welcome such people into the mainstream once they use peaceable means.

some of these people include nationalists and unionists in the north who accept people in government who not too long ago where patrolling their back streets with guns, or in the British case patrolling their front streets with guns. They accept this because they are strong and thoughtful and know the alternative is not somewhere they want to go again.

Some people don't get it though and prefer to navel gaze rather than be Pragmatic. Some people who like to remind others to never forget ironically have a revisionist view of modern Irish history, so much so that to even acknowledge that the troubles were born out of an apartheid state which spawned refugee camps and ethnic cleansing of whole areas is akin to being an IRA sympathiser. It's very easy to sit here detached from what went on and condemn it but if you were 20 years old in a nationalist area in the 1970's would you still be able to claim the same level of self riotousness.

"never forget" , it reminds me of phrases like "not a single rusty bullet" or "never,never,never". Thankfully the people who used these phrases have managed to move on, however hard it might have been for them and work with each other now.

I'll probably never vote SF myself but I don't oppose them standing for election and I don't hold anything against those who do vote for them, infact the more young people who join and the more diverse their supporters the quicker they can transition from what they were even just 10 years ago. I reserve my disbelief for those who still vote FF tbh rather than those who vote SF. At least SF have proven themselves as patient and competent negotiators over a prolonged period of time in the most hostile of circumstances. All ff/fg/lab have ever proven is that they are all incompetent and corrupt to lesser or more degrees to each other.

We're not blessed with fantastic choices as an electorate. Never forget how much worse it could be though if people with small minds never move forward.

I'm actually tempted to vote SF next time just to annoy the people in this thread tbh.

NinjaK

west brits in anti Sinn Fein shocker

fasttalkerchat

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It was of course a rhetorical question, the answer being: many.

So what have we learned then? simples, right from the foundation of the state and up through to the present day, men of violence, men who've fought against this very state have made the transition from that mindset to sitting at the cabinet table, in a government of a country they once violently opposed.

Not sure if I agree. Support for the IRA within SF was greater than support for the IRA within labour by a long stretch IMO. There were some Labour-Republican crossover but I wouldn't have thought that many current Labour members were actively involved in the PIRA.

gaffer91

murf313 wrote: »

@ OP.

Who the hell are you to tell people what party to vote for? People can make up they're own minds without the "holier than thou" brigade interfering! People like yourself seem to think its perfectly acceptable for FF/FG to have a bloody/murderous past but once sinn fein are mentioned ye start climbing up your ivory tower.... :rolleyes:

Good old whataboutery rears its head again. I notice most posts here don't bother dealing with what the anti-SF posters are saying but rather bring up unrelated issues.

NinjaK wrote: »

west brits in anti Sinn Fein shocker

Good contribution. Especially the first two words. I take back everything I said.:rolleyes:

invinciblePRSTV

Monty Burnz wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

How many current members of the Labour Party played an active role in IRA activities?

No idea. How many current Irish politicians stand over political murder?

Hint: most of them belong to one party.

Wrong. By my count 3 parties in the current Dail would have either a policy platform or membership which (formerly) supported Republican paramilitary activity.

Of course that doesn't include FF/FG and their murky history.