Sinn Fein- Never forget

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

Ah now don't be cryptic. What reasons? All on-board? Who is the all you are referring to?

This happened in 2009, how would SF not collecting Garda killers damage the peace process? why would unsanctioned killers not being greeted by a smiling Martin Ferris have upsat the IRA (which are supposed to no longer exist)?

So its back to 'gerry mc cabe as club' time. It's fairiy self explanatory what I meant.

Laminations

What about majority wishes south of the border? or recognising the legitimate government and courts of the country or the army?

nua domhan

Laminations wrote: »

Living in the troubles would only serve to give me a one sided view - you admit this yourself, we are not in the matrix. So you saying 'you don't know how is was man' is easily countered by me saying 'neither do you'.

While experience is highly informative it is also highly biasing especially in a situation of such strongly opposed in-group/out-group. So I stick to research. Objectivity and subjectivity and important distinctions

If you want to explain how the figures on who killed who paints the IRA as better, then go ahead - but I hope you don't try and argue that every murder of a civilian was in their case a mistake or a rogue element.

Where at any point did i say they were better? To be honest you view the murders as statistics, so in your view the 49% killed by the IRA is obviously worse than the 43% or so from british or loyalist forces. Were the 15 killed at Teebane worth more or less than the 5 Killed in retaliation? Ask the mothers about your statistics.

Sometimes you could be milking a cow for so long you are sure you are doing it the right way and the best way. I could watch you do it and then go and watch others do it (research as you mention) and conclude that you are in fact pulling on the penis. My observation would be correct and trump your years of experience.

What a ridiculous analogy - if i was doing it wrong i would stop doing it. You could read every book you wanted on the menopause, that doen't mean that you could tell a woman in her 50's exactly what she'll feel.

Finally if you want to tell me how your experience of the troubles in any way justifies the support and collection of Garda killers (which is the crux of this thread) please do explain

My point is that we have to move on, people make mistakes and do things that are wrong, if your son, daughter or friend killed someone in a car crash would you avoid seeing them in jail incase you offended someone?

If the action of picking someone up from jail was triumphalist, with celebrations and waving and smiles then yes, i would have a problem with it. I don't think this was the case, was it?

People have lost far more than you have, and its a bit incredulous that you think you have the right to speak out against atrocities in history while the others who have suffered them have forgiven and worked for better. I would happily argue and give more credibility to someone from the UVF, LVF, Red Hand commandos etc than to someone watching from the wings with their "Research".

Regarding world war 2, i suppose you protested against the pope? What did you write to the vatican, can you copy and paste it here or did you start a thread on it?? After all he was in the hitler youth at one stage - NEVER FORGET.

Ps Your objectivity and subjectivity are predicated on accepting all your information as fact. How do you "objectively" analyse your research? Do you follow the popular norms? Who are the scholars that write your books? where did they come from? Are they biased or objective? where did they get their info? Politics is not physics, there are no definitive views, one could argue a murder as justified, another argue as stringently that it wasn't, neither could argue against gravity.

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

So its back to 'gerry mc cabe as club' time. It's fairiy self explanatory what I meant.

no it is not. It is nonsensical, that the non-support of two unsanctioned Garda killers would lead to some catastrophic collapse of the peace process in 2009 - 4 years after the IRA decommission and announced an end to its armed campaign. Who were you scared of?

golden lane

is there a point in keeping up a thread that posters are trying the justify the killing of innocent irish civilians........

that is cold blooded murder.......

Laminations

nua domhan wrote: »

if i was doing it wrong i would stop doing it.

You are so indoctrinated you don't see you are doing it wrong. It was a conflict with two sides that both committed atrocities. A political wing of one of those sides who were involved in and supported many of the atrocities are now canvassing for votes. We should be able to scruntise their conduct.

And the topic of the thread concerns such conduct.

It is a simple question - why did SF support Garda killers.

Laminations

nua domhan wrote: »

My point is that we have to move on, people make mistakes and do things that are wrong, if your son, daughter or friend killed someone in a car crash would you avoid seeing them in jail incase you offended someone?

McCabe was not an accident like a car crash - it was an unsanctioned murder during an unsanctioned post office robbery. If a member of my family committed such an act I'd disown them.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

no it is not. It is nonsensical, that the non-support of two unsanctioned Garda killers would lead to some catastrophic collapse of the peace process in 2009 - 4 years after the IRA decommission and announced an end to its armed campaign. Who were you scared of?

2009? You might want to check your timeline there.

Laminations wrote: »

What about majority wishes south of the border? or recognising the legitimate government and courts of the country or the army? ?

How could they, and carry on an armed campaign? Again, you are asking questions which have rather well known and obvious answers.

gaffer91

Nodin wrote: »

A distortion of the reality. The fact is that the PIRA grew out of a situation where state violence had been employed against a section of the community.

I'm sorry that things didn't follow your narrow sectarian plot-line.

In the early days of the conflict, the NICRA were being beaten off the street, the british army and loyalist mobs were marching into catholic communities and burning them out of their homes. I accept that and I've no problem with people taking up arms to defend themselves, particularly when it seems the state won't.

As the years went by, the PIRA warped into from an organisation protecting local areas to an organisation committed to bombing civilians, killing gardai, "retaliating" to sectarian murders and the like. They had NO justification or popular support for this, but SF defended them all the time. The most despicable actions were always written off as "unsanctioned". The same people who not only defended them, which is bad enough in itself, but were actively involved, are now looking for votes in the Dail. I don't know about you but it makes my stomach churn.

As for the unionists destroying sunningdale, which they certainly helped do, I don't exactly recall the PIRA declaring a ceasefire and throwing their weight behind it? Or stopping their campaign of senseless violence?

*awaits someone to mention something the brits or loyalists did despite it having no bearing on ROI in 2012* :cool:

Laminations

nua domhan wrote: »

Regarding world war 2, i suppose you protested against the pope? What did you write to the vatican, can you copy and paste it here or did you start a thread on it?? After all he was in the hitler youth at one stage - NEVER FORGET.

Jesus Christ. The Pope never stood for election here. Also his membership of the Hitler Youth was less of a choice than SF collecting and supporting Garda killers

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

2009? You might want to check your timeline there.
.

Yes 2009, when Ferris collected Garda killers from prison
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0805/mccabej.html

gaffer91

nua domhan wrote: »

Regarding world war 2, i suppose you protested against the pope? What did you write to the vatican, can you copy and paste it here or did you start a thread on it?? After all he was in the hitler youth at one stage - NEVER FORGET.

My god, is that really what the shinners are reduced to? Pathetic.

For the 752nd time- in the context of elections in the republic of Ireland it is irrelevant what the loyalists, the British army or anyone else did as they are not looking for votes.

nua domhan

gaffer91 wrote: »

They had NO justification or popular support for this, but SF defended them all the time.

They're just the 2nd biggest party in the North because.......?

Laminations

nua domhan wrote: »

They're just the 2nd biggest party in the North because.......?

There's very limited choice? and some very bigoted enclaves

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

Yes 2009, when Ferris collected Garda killers from prison
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0805/mccabej.html

They were included under the GFA in an agreement reached long before that. I've no idea why Ferris picked them up.

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

They were included under the GFA in an agreement reached long before that. I've no idea why Ferris picked them up.

Do you think it was right for Ferris to pick up garda killers?

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

There's very limited choice? and some very bigoted enclaves

....you were complaining because catholics who joined the security forces were targeted, now you're implying that the size of the sinn fein vote is due to bigotry. Dear me.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

Do you think it was right for Ferris to pick up garda killers?

I don't, actually.

Do you think its right to switch to using him as a club every now and again?

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

....you were complaining because catholics who joined the security forces were targeted, now you're implying that the size of the sinn fein vote is due to bigotry. Dear me.

Its certainly not for your economic acumen

Bigotry, ignorance, disillusionment and lack of options. In many peoples case, the first two. In fairness you can't really be a working-class party without also courting the votes of many relatively uneducated people.

gaffer91

nua domhan wrote: »

They're just the 2nd biggest party in the North because.......?

They are now. When the IRA murder campaign was still in full swing with SF trying and failing to justify it, SF garnered around 10% of the vote. SDLP were by far the more popular party in the nationalist community.

nua domhan

gaffer91 wrote: »

My god, is that really what the shinners are reduced to? Pathetic.

For the 752nd time- in the context of elections in the republic of Ireland it is irrelevant what the loyalists, the British army or anyone else did as they are not looking for votes.

The pope represents catholics in ireland - it is the same principle that you would like to bring the sins of the father to bear on the son. Very McCarthyite of you. If you have a problem with former "terrorists" or affiliates standing for election in Ireland i assume you have a problem with it in South Africa, Bolivia, Cuba, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq etc or does your dogma and beliefs stop at the border?

I had no problem with the PUP standing for election in the north, as i have stated, i would even have considered voting for them despite their history, and in some ways, because of it.

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

I don't, actually.

Do you think its right to switch to using him as a club every now and again?

Its central to the topic of the thread. Can you elaborate on why unsanctioned garda killers were included in the GFA? SF petitioned for it (against the wishes of the Irish gov). who were you scared of offending?

nua domhan

Laminations wrote: »

There's very limited choice? and some very bigoted enclaves

That is just ridiculous and shows your ignorance or the north. Have you even set foot up there?
Alliance, Sinn Fein, Dup, UUP, UKIP, Greens, SDLP, PUP, Independents - thats 9 choices i count.

How many in the republic? If the choice in the north is limited what is it in the south?

Laminations

nua domhan wrote: »

That is just ridiculous and shows your ignorance or the north. Have you even set foot up there?
Alliance, Sinn Fein, Dup, UUP, UKIP, Greens, SDLP, PUP, Independents - thats 9 choices i count.

How many in the republic? If the choice in the north is limited what is it in the south?

Is this a trick question? Also limited? Hence the surge in SF support because voters have nowhere else to go to register a protest vote

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

Its certainly not for your economic acumen

Bigotry, ignorance, disillusionment and lack of options. In many peoples case, the first two. In fairness you can't really be a working-class party without also courting the votes of many relatively uneducated people.

Lovely.

Laminations wrote: »

Can you elaborate on why unsanctioned garda killers were included in the GFA? SF petitioned for it (against the wishes of the Irish gov). who were you scared of offending? .

There was a killer involved, but more in prison. Its blatantly obvious I'm referring to a possible split in the republican movement.

gaffer91

Nodin wrote: »

I don't, actually.

Do you think its right to switch to using him as a club every now and again?

It's not about using him as a club. The whole Jerry McCabe incident was an absolute disgrace from start to finish on the part of SF, from the murder right up until to 2009. It was recent, it involved a murder of a garda and it showed SF's true colours. That's why people mention it so often.

nua domhan wrote: »

The pope represents catholics in ireland - it is the same principle that you would like to bring the sins of the father to bear on the son. Very McCarthyite of you. If you have a problem with former "terrorists" or affiliates standing for election in Ireland i assume you have a problem with it in South Africa, Bolivia, Cuba, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq etc or does your dogma and beliefs stop at the border?

I had no problem with the PUP standing for election in the north, as i have stated, i would even have considered voting for them despite their history, and in some ways, because of it.

Again- what people do outside my country does not matter to me. I am not opposed to SF having the right to stand. I am opposed to people voting them, not for people having the right to vote for them.

As for the sins of father and son- Adams and Ferris were in the IRA. They were actively involved. We are not at all far removed from IRA violence. The ones who weren't involved regularly commemorate the likes of Sean Russell. Tells me everything I need to know about their 'values'.

Fenian Army

K-9 wrote: »

I'd say the revenge/retribution was a little added bonus to the unauthorised IRA bank robbery myself. I wouldn't be surprised Republican circles had excuses or little sympathy, pretty par for the course tbh.

Ah I dunno, would they have known for sure it was him? They didn't get any money either. I suspect it went as I said earlier, they saw him lunge for his gun and opened up first.

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

Lovely.

Care to point out the deprived areas where SF enjoys support that are known for their high levels of education? The truth hurts. You manipulate the minds of the ignorant and disillusioned. You indoctrinate, like a cult.

There was a killer involved, but more in prison. Its blatantly obvious I'm referring to a possible split in the republican movement.

What is not obvious is why those who would choose not to toe the peace process would not simply be named by those that were supposedly committed to peace. It shouldn't have been a case of 'let them out because they are our mates and if ya don't we will form a separate group and spoil yisser peace' but a case of the GFA being applied to 'true' political prisoners who were convicted of a crime against the British 'oppressors'.

What you are suggesting is that decisions were made to include these garda killers under threats of violence.

Fenian Army

JustinDee wrote: »

Simply pathetic. It is shameful that people in this day and age on this island still think like this and feebly attempt to justify what went on.

I'm not trying to justify anything. Believing what I do I still think that killing him was wrong.

Fenian Army

This thread has highlighted the despicable partitionist, selfish mentality of many. "The British aren't running in elections in the republic are they?" No, but they still have control over the north.