Motor Tax reform

2cv

Any thoughts on this?




http://www.thejournal.ie/motor-tax-reform-will-require-drivers-to-prove-cars-are-off-the-road-460585-May2012/

carchaeologist

Fair enough. Once it's done properly. I have the fear though like everything else that those ****ing apes up there do it will be a load of bollocks as usual.

2cv

I just think that Ireland is becoming more and more like the UK.... SORN, ANPR,...... and so on

Carazy

It is a good idea but should only apply to cars which have been taxed following the introduction of this law.

eg. Only a car which has been taxed once this law comes into effect is then on the system for penaltues (excluding cars which are potentially going to be restored)

unkel

Tax on fuel is so much easier to implement, more efficient, fairer, 100% compliance, etc.

But the SORN system is better than what we have now. Then again with minimal enforcement it won't make any difference.

The same chancers that do the 3 on 3 off now will:

SORN the car (keep driving it of course knowing there is only a slim chance of being caught, especially outside main city areas). Then declare the car on the road, tax it for 3 months and SORN it again

So 3 on 3 off will be 3 SORN 3 on :rolleyes:

2cv

Carazy wrote: »

It is a good idea but should only apply to cars which have been taxed following the introduction of this law.

eg. Only a car which has been taxed once this law comes into effect is then on the system for penaltues (excluding cars which are potentially going to be restored)

Do you think our government are smart enough to think of that? :-)

carchaeologist

Carazy wrote: »

It is a good idea but should only apply to cars which have been taxed following the introduction of this law.

eg. Only a car which has been taxed once this law comes into effect is then on the system for penaltues (excluding cars which are potentially going to be restored)

This is the main issue, if its applied to all cars since the beginning of taxation, most of us are ****ed. It has to be applied to cars currently taxed when it is introduced, and all cars subsequently taxed afterwards. Anything off the system/untaxed should not have to be recorded as off the road.

Also, if there is a charge on declaring your vehicle off the road, its a farce. It should be a free service, if its going to save as much money as they think.

But...wait for it..it will all be done arseways..:rolleyes:

2cv

carchaeologist wrote: »

Also, if there is a charge on declaring your vehicle off the road, its a farce. It should be a free service, if its going to save as much money as they think.

I believe they charge £35 per car per year off the road in the UK, so being the copy cats they are, they'll probably charge for it over here

spooky donkey

well this plan seems better then what I thought they were going to implemnt.
I was worried they were just gona force you to back tax all cars in your name off the road.

This idea is fine by my, as im planing keeping my classic of the road for this season and next season till it hits vintage. I had a worry that when that happened I might have had to have paid back tax on it.
I would have no issue proving its off the road, its burried in the back of a garrage with no batter in it now.....

Seth Brundle

unkel wrote: »

Tax on fuel is so much easier to implement, more efficient, fairer, 100% compliance, etc.

I agree that it would be a fairer system but I would have no doubt that the occurrences of fuel laundering (primarily in diesel) would increase.

trevorbrady

kbannon wrote: »

I agree that it would be a fairer system but I would have no doubt that the occurrences of fuel laundering (primarily in diesel) would increase.

just abolish green diesel, make farmers buy the normal stuff, keep their receipts and give them a tax rebate at the end of the year.

it would do away with fuel laundering and all the criminality associated with it and in turn the criminality it funds...

am I being naieve (sp?) in presuming this is an easy fix?

Seth Brundle

Possibly but I'm not a crime expert.
IIRC petrol laundering is done (somehow) by adding in high quantities of methanol so burdening the farmers (which could possibly drive up food prices) would not cure this type of laundering.

Carazy

trevorbrady wrote: »

just abolish green diesel, make farmers buy the normal stuff, keep their receipts and give them a tax rebate at the end of the year.

it would do away with fuel laundering and all the criminality associated with it and in turn the criminality it funds...

am I being naieve (sp?) in presuming this is an easy fix?

I wouldn't consider abolishing green diesel as an option.

How could you regulate such an option. If this was the case the farmer could give receipts for all their diesel vehicles ( e.g family cars) and not just their agricultural vehicles. It would lead to everyone giving their fuel receipts to their relatives who are farmers etc. to rebate tax for all their cars.

macplaxton

2cv wrote: »

I believe they charge £35 per car per year off the road in the UK, so being the copy cats they are, they'll probably charge for it over here

You believe wrong Dave, it's gratis.

(I've got two on SORN and one that doesn't need doing as it was last taxed before the SORN scheme was introduced.)

macplaxton

unkel wrote: »

But the SORN system is better than what we have now. Then again with minimal enforcement it won't make any difference.

I don't believe the SORN system does anything other than give me (a law abiding vehicle keeper) more paperwork to do (and fines if I forget). Same with CIE (Continuous Insurance Enforcement).

Only this:


might make some difference.

Then again, it might be a big headache if the vehicle database details aren't up to scratch.

kevin65

When I took my BMW 318is off the road 4 years ago and didn't renew the tax, I got a form from Galway council to fill in to declare the car was off the road. So, has there been some system in place already to declare a car as being off the road? I'm glad I kept a photocopy of the completed form.

2cv

macplaxton wrote: »

You believe wrong Dave, it's gratis.

(I've got two on SORN and one that doesn't need doing as it was last taxed before the SORN scheme was introduced.)

I stand corrected :-)

In fact, Holland has a similar system and over there you have to pay for it....

Sids Not

Oh dear..does that mean i cant tax for 3 months and rest for 3 months anymore...........;)

unkel

Carazy wrote: »

I wouldn't consider abolishing green diesel as an option.

I would consider that an excellent option myself. But no discounts, rebates for anyone, including farmers. Problem solved apart from a few angry farmers (and very angry fuel launderers )

The question is, do we have a minister with the balls to announce this?

kevin65

unkel wrote: »

Carazy wrote: »

I wouldn't consider abolishing green diesel as an option.

I would consider that an excellent option myself. But no discounts, rebates for anyone, including farmers. Problem solved apart from a few angry farmers (and very angry fuel launderers )

The question is, do we have a minister with the balls to announce this?

Bigger question is do we have any ministers with brains and balls to do anything right?

Markcheese

When did this become the political bashing thread.... Should we just shoot ministers on apointment, save time and hassle....
The number plate recognition on squad cars works pretty well at moment ( eldery neighbor got pullied on way home from garage with a new 2nd hand car).But I can't imagine my local Garda inputting info onto the motor tax records very quickly...the forms will prob be sent to a central office where they'll wait processing might take 3 months.....:)

kevin65

The most efficient way would be an online system where you can log in and declare your car off the road for a specified period. The number plate recognition system in the Garda cars could be linked to it.

cian1500ww

Anyone know when this will come in to effect?

2cv

cian1500ww wrote: »

Anyone know when this will come in to effect?

The article didn't mention it

ahal

I've no time for anyone avoiding paying tax ... as usual the minority (sizeable enough it would seem) ruin the thing. My tax was out since March '12 so basically I 'grounded' the car for quite a while, then today got the dough together and went down to Bray at 9.20. Sure enough, not open until 10.30 (10.30 - 2 pm!!!)

Went back down again to find that they don't do tax of a friday. I said to guy behind the desk "Is this what the €100 household charge is for ... community services?"

He looked a bit nervous so I thanked him and bogged off to Wicklow. Sorry, that was a bit of a rant. Anyway, I have a couple of cars and I've always been happy to be able to go into the Garda station and get something that hasn't been on the road exempted for 3/4 years of motor tax. I've never falsely declared a car for 'non use' period. It's amazing though, how many people have suggested lately that I do this with my daily runner :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, Motor tax is a fooken scam through and through. Urinating on one's neighbour isn't the way to deal with it though.

Dades

There's no way they could try and apply it retrospectively to cars currently off the road.

As suggested, they'll fix a date after which gaps in a currently taxed car's history will have to be paid for unless the owner uses the new process.

macplaxton

I'd like to think that they'd do that.

But given the pig's ear they make of drafting some legislation properly*, it's no guarantee that they will.

*one example: (Road Traffic Act (2010) - Section 63) - Legislation brought in last year is not being applied because the wording was not changed to force motorists to bring their licences to court.

Markcheese

ahal wrote: »

I've no time for anyone avoiding paying tax ... as usual the minority (sizeable enough it would seem) ruin the thing. My tax was out since March '12 so basically I 'grounded' the car for quite a while, then today got the dough together and went down to Bray at 9.20. Sure enough, not open until 10.30 (10.30 - 2 pm!!!)

Went back down again to find that they don't do tax of a friday. I said to guy behind the desk "Is this what the €100 household charge is for ... community services?"

He looked a bit nervous so I thanked him and bogged off to Wicklow. Sorry, that was a bit of a rant. Anyway, I have a couple of cars and I've always been happy to be able to go into the Garda station and get something that hasn't been on the road exempted for 3/4 years of motor tax. I've never falsely declared a car for 'non use' period. It's amazing though, how many people have suggested lately that I do this with my daily runner :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, Motor tax is a fooken scam through and through. Urinating on one's neighbour isn't the way to deal with it though.

+ 1
Realisticaly anyone who was doing the 3 months off , 3 on is going to be on the new system in short time .... 6 months or less I suppose , and if they outsource the data entry or as above make it online self declaration it'll work well..... Prob is making false sworn statements and actual perjury aren't that big a deal here unlike in the uk and continent......

WDB123

How about that shower taking a pay cut in the dail,civil service employees start living in the real world and trying to suit the people closing for dinner closed at 4 dont tax cars on a friday,open at 10am
Absolute BS and now more reason to come in contact with them !!!!!!

Sam Russell

Road tax on the petrol would add about 40c to a litre of fuel. It could be introduced slowly by raising the fuel tax and reducing roadtax by the equivalent amount over a few years.

Another scheme would be to add road tax to the insurance, collected by the insurance company. Cheap for the Government as someone else does the leg work. Good for the motorist (the ones that pay insurance) and an incentive for the Traffic Copps Corps to catch those not insured. Perhaps the penalty for no insurance could be to crush the car plus high fines.

They could also pass responsibility for NCT observance to the insurance companies. Having an annual test for cars over 10 years, while no test for cars up to 4 years is just daft as 28% of cars at 4 years fail the test. I wonder how many would fail at 2 years? Bald tyres, missing lights, bad brakes, poor repairs after a prang, or missaligned steering caused by our lack of road repairs.

MercMad

I do thinks its time they did something on this issue. I have spoken with several people lately who have had their car stopped and taken from them there and then as their tax had expired many months earlier. I was shocked when these folk called the gardai..........well lets just say they used colorful language. It unreal how many people abuse the system and complain when caught !!

Surely if you can do motor tax on-line you should be able to do SORN on-line also, and simply severely fine folk who are not compliant.

Personally I have several cars off the road, some classics being restored and some semi-modern cars that I am simply not using. I should be allowed to do this without it costing me anything.

Also exactly where did the calculation of €55million come from, how did anyone arrive at that figure ? Through high motor tax rates they are driving cars off the road, and yet more than likely also including them in their stats.

Sam Russell

A sorn type system would be relatively easy to inroduce as it is the same as taxing without the payment. All vehicles currently untaxed could be given a grace time to have them regularised and then SORN before their registrations would be cancelled. This would get over the 'brown log book for sale' curse inflicting the classic scene.

It would be useful if they sorted the mad ZV registrations at the same time.

hi5

^And any regs that haven't been accounted for could be presumed scrapped and be available for re-issue.
Having said that there are hundreds of thousands of the old series that have never been issued anyway.

Leitrim for example;

IT 1 to IT 9999 (Dec 1903 - May 1972),
AIT 1 to KIT 780 (May 1972 - Dec 1986), have been issued.

So 1 IT to 9999 IT and 1 AIT to 999 ZIT have never been issued, theres 36000 unissued straight off.
Also from KIT 780 to ZIT 999 is another 15000 unissued give or take.
Thats over 50000 unissued from Leitrim alone.

kasper

hi5 wrote: »

^And any regs that haven't been accounted for could be presumed scrapped and be available for re-issue.
Having said that there are hundreds of thousands of the old series that have never been issued anyway.

Leitrim for example;

IT 1 to IT 9999 (Dec 1903 - May 1972),
AIT 1 to KIT 780 (May 1972 - Dec 1986), have been issued.

So 1 IT to 9999 IT and 1 AIT to 999 ZIT have never been issued, theres 36000 unissued straight off.
Also from KIT 780 to ZIT 999 is another 15000 unissued give or take.
Thats over 50000 unissued from Leitrim alone.

and then some lucky lass could get the reg tit5

mk1esc

imo the whole thing is just a money scam, if you can afford 1 or more cars we will penalise you for being able to afford them.....this could be the governments way of squeezing classic cars etc of the road....it could also be saying in not so many words that if your motor is over 10 yrs old we want it off the road....

not many people ave plenty of cash these days ....the government just want loads of it :mad::mad:....what sort of salaries are they on these days???? this is like a case of the rich get richer and the poor well fook them spongers and tag alongs.....

this country has to many other problems going on but yet "we" the people get screwed over day in day out by them fookers.....:mad::mad:

what about farmers with old tractors and other machinery or road hauliers aving to pay for stuff of the road....its not a fair system....

Sam Russell

I think it is more like SIMI want the government to drive cars off the road to increase sales of new cars. SIMI gets the sales, Gov gets the VRT - everyone is happy. [Well not everyone, well no-one else really].:mad:

carchaeologist

Reading an interview in a paper last week with a SIMI PRO girl, she said they are giving consideration to a twice yearly registration system to keep sales up throughout the year.

Why anyone buys a new car is beyond me. Its the greatest waste of money possible, besides maybe actually burning it.

hi5

carchaeologist wrote: »

Reading an interview in a paper last week with a SIMI PRO girl, she said they are giving consideration to a twice yearly registration system to keep sales up throughout the year.

Why anyone buys a new car is beyond me. Its the greatest waste of money possible, besides maybe actually burning it.

Just like they have been doing in the UK for the last decade or so.

Xlaxeo

Sam Russell wrote: »

This would get over the 'brown log book for sale' curse inflicting the classic scene.

It would also make it very difficult to restore and recommission a car that has been off the road for a long time without being SORNed.

I recently had a car restored that was last taxed in 1993. That was difficult enough to get taxed.

A SORN system would certainly reduce the amount of long abandoned or neglected cars being restored anyway.

Sam Russell

Xlaxeo wrote: »

It would also make it very difficult to restore and recommission a car that has been off the road for a long time without being SORNed.

I recently had a car restored that was last taxed in 1993. That was difficult enough to get taxed.

A SORN system would certainly reduce the amount of long abandoned or neglected cars being restored anyway.

If this was to be introduced, presumably any currently untaxed, stored or under restoration vehicle would simply have to declare the remains. Perhaps, it would be required to be inspected when returned to the road to certify its credentials. It would be the equivalent checking/testing as imports of a simillar vintage are subject to currently.

A grace period should be applied for such vehicles to be declared before more stringent rules are applied. Currently 'barn finds' without paperwork are subject to such actions.

Big Nasty

carchaeologist wrote: »

Reading an interview in a paper last week with a SIMI PRO girl, she said they are giving consideration to a twice yearly registration system to keep sales up throughout the year.

Why anyone buys a new car is beyond me. Its the greatest waste of money possible, besides maybe actually burning it.

If people don't buy cars new how do you expect to buy them used?

carchaeologist

MCMLXXV wrote: »

If people don't buy cars new how do you expect to buy them used?

I know, it's just when you work out how much money a new car loses over time it's a wonder anyone buys new.

The year identifier plates were a masterstroke of genius by the government in 1987!

Fishtits

I don't see the problem with this proposed legislation.

If its off the road tell them. Big Deal?

When you want to drive it, rock up & tax it.

When the tax is out, tell them.

What's the problem?

Sam Russell

carchaeologist wrote: »

I know, it's just when you work out how much money a new car loses over time it's a wonder anyone buys new.

The year identifier plates were a masterstroke of genius by the government in 1987!

It was a masterstroke by SIMI who petitioned hard to get it. It was daft in '87 to go for such a number scheme as it added an extra digit that was unnecessary. If they chose a letter, they would have a scheme that would have lasted 20 years with a single digit. Oh, wasn't that the scheme chosen across the water in 1963- A123ABC, then reversed as ABC123A? Lasted nearly 40 years, and towards the end they started using two letters a year.

However, next year it is going to bite them. Who wants to have 13 X 12235 as a number plate if they are superstitious?

They are trying to change the 13 prefix to avoid lost sales.

If fewer new cars are bought, second-hand cars are more expensive and cars hold their prices better. Also, cars will be maintained better and garages will have more repair business, so giving more jobs for mechanics but less for salesmen.

w124man

Hi, been watching this thread for a while and I'm puzzled about some of the reaction. A SORN system would be good and simple to operate. If you have, like I do, a shed full of projects that haven't been taxed in years, you simply fill in the forms and send them off declaring everything as SORN. What can be easier .... ?? Its better than having to pay tax on everything

As regards the registration plate numbers system what could be simpler and really who cares about the number 13? I dont - well maybe if it was followed by 666 !!!

The UK system is a joke in comparison however not as big a joke as the new system allocated to secondhand imports which is nothing more than a childish reaction from an inadequate motor industry federation

Sam Russell

w124man wrote: »

The UK system is a joke in comparison however not as big a joke as the new system allocated to secondhand imports which is nothing more than a childish reaction from an inadequate motor industry federation

Which one? They are on their third one so far.

First they had six digits, two letter or three, with numbers to make up six digits. The (last) two letters specified the county. NI still uses this but has added an extra number.

They then added a letter to the end to give seven digits with an identifier for the year. The letter 'A' identified 1963 IIRC, and twenty years later they put the number in front. They messed around with the changeover month, just to satisfy the motor-trade.

Then they came up with the opaque system they now use, two letters, two numbers and three letters. The first two letters are to identify the county, the numbers are for the year, divided into two periods, 11, and 61, to specify the year and which half, and then three letters that are basically random. The purpose of which is to allow the sale of personalised number plates at great profit to the government over there.

By the way, I was over in France recently and noticed they have a new registration system. Had not noticed it before. Anyone know how long they have had it for?

tony.aspergers

Sam Russell wrote: »

By the way, I was over in France recently and noticed they have a new registration system. Had not noticed it before. Anyone know how long they have had it for?

It's been in for a few years now I think.... They had the same problem, the boom period saw them running out of numbers!

macplaxton

w124man wrote: »

I'm puzzled about some of the reaction. A SORN system would be good and simple to operate. If you have, like I do, a shed full of projects that haven't been taxed in years, you simply fill in the forms and send them off declaring everything as SORN. What can be easier .... ??

I puzzled by this response.

You are welcoming more paperwork? This simple filling of forms will need to be done every year multiplied by the number of projects. Sounds a lot more effort and hassle than doing nothing!

2cv

tony.aspergers wrote: »

It's been in for a few years now I think.... They had the same problem, the boom period saw them running out of numbers!

That's cos they're doing it wrong :-)

I think Belgium has got the right answer... If you buy a car over there, it's always unregistered. You simply keep your old registration number. Only recently they moved to a 7 digit system, which is not bad for a country with 11 million people. They now have 1-ABC-123.

rugbyman

in response to the query about french numbers,
the system, well abandoned, in France up to a year or two ago . the system was crazy, suited the fonctionaires/civil servants.

Every subsequent owner of a car got a new registration and bought new plates,
. you also needed a new tax book , which can cost hundred of euro ,(depends on H.P.) This also meant that everyones car was registered in the county/department in which they lived.
According to what I read there , it proved a deterrent to trade, (as I type I cannot think why that would be so,)
Anyway the new system means the car keeps the number , from owner to owner. the punitive price for the tax book/carte grise remains. (though I think the mileage is on it, a good feature).
The new system does not identify the department( though you can opt to have it on the edge of the plate or not.)
Having travelled many thousands of miles there ,and being a number fitishist I have seen very few who opt to not show their department.

Regards, Rugbyman

rugbyman

2CV
i know you have stated that you lived in Belgium for years,
Query re their new numbers. The format is indeed 1.abc.123 but I have seen an occasaional 9.abc.123 and last week one only 8.abc.123

Any idea as to what thats about.

Rugbyman