Heineken Cup: Do we have an unfair advantage?

Nermal

Are the RFU/LNR dead set against ending relegation? Has it ever been floated? I'm sure there would be clubs in favour.

rrpc

BoarHunter wrote: »

Good topic. It reflects my opinion about the HCup. There is no way to deny that Leinster is a magnificient team and certainly up there with the TOP 2 in France. However it makes me thinking : how did they manage to build up that academy ? how did they build up this momentum ? where is the experience, funds, etc coming from ? The HCUP .... if you are qualified every year for certain it is a great relief.

How many campains did they play before success ? and every time with the garanty to try again the following year and build up some experience. When you work with security and consistancy it is always a good bonus.

The level of the PRO12 is somewhat weaker than the other leagues considering than most of the teams don't bother giving it a good go. Just compare game time between TOP14 players and others. A player like Mas is 12 matchs over Cian Healy for the season

Then if you have a closer look you can verify the decline of french success in the HCup since the creation of the TOP14 in 2005 giving way to the Celtic system to be well ahead in terms of preparation and freshness. When I hear about a TOP16 in the pipeline it is just scary !

The LNR are building something entertaining in the long term with most of the clubs having top of the range stadiums within a few season from now and suspens all the way through the last day. It is not really compatible with the format of the HCup.

To give a fair comparison today, I'm not sure if Munster would have qualified in the TOP6 of the French league this season .... or they wouldn't have gone out of their group in HCup ... it's one or the other really. ( i'm not gonna make friends on here by saying that :pac: ) I let you imagine the disaster in terms of finance for the club, the weaker attractivity for talents to join, etc,etc ....

So in conclusion ( and I can elborate on all the points above becasue there are a lot more reasons ) I think that yes there is an advantage for the celts in the HCup

BUT

I think the goal of the competition is not to crown the best team of the continent. As JustinDee said it is to promote the game. What was the level of the Celtic rugby before this ( league + international ) ?

In addition you have to admit that the level of the game is just miles ahead of any other club competition in some games. This is unvaluable and just for this the competition serves its purpose : Improving the level globaly across Europe.

I have chosen my league myself : Roll on this week end even though the HCup can be entertaining. I think the PRO12 teams are designed for it and will probably rule the Cup for years to come.

Very good post.

But I don't think your last sentence is correct

There have always been competitive French teams in the HEC: Toulouse, Biarritz and Perpignan and more lately Clermont as well as possibly Paris and Toulon.

Currently the Irish teams are doing well, but Munster and Ulster are building and may not be in a strong position for a season or two. Welsh teams are struggling badly. Ospreys and Cardiff have lost a lot of players and although Ospreys have done well in the Rabo this season, they probably won't be able to capitalise on their HEC involvement next season.

Edinburgh did well this season, but that won't be repeated next year. Glasgow might well go strongly but have poor depth. Italy are struggling to find a second team.

The premiership teams are making a comeback. Leicester will always try hard even when it looks like the odds are against them, Saracens will again be strong and Quins are certainly headed in the right direction. Saints are a bit of an enigma, but they always give it their best shot and Exeter are really quite a good side.

So really, next season will be a very different HEC in my view. I would expect to see at least three French and two English in the quarter finals.

By the way, you picked the wrong player to compare when you picked Cian Healy. You forget that Cian also played RWC games, warm up games and 6N games. All test rugby which is far harder than easy club trips to Lyon and Bordeaux

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Perhaps, if you don't understand the discussion! The Leicester game was soon after those games. It's the whole argument.

The argument is that a club put out a weakened team in order to preserve players for a bigger match later on?

With two matches in four days, you think this is in some way what? disrespectful? stupid? intelligent use of resources?

This kind of thing happens in every league and in every sport. Why do you think clubs have reserve players?

And why does that mean that another country should take more slots in the HEC when patently they don't properly use the slots they already have?

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

The argument is that a club put out a weakened team in order to preserve players for a bigger match later on?

With two matches in four days, you think this is in some way what? disrespectful? stupid? intelligent use of resources?

This kind of thing happens in every league and in every sport. Why do you think clubs have reserve players?

Please... Let's look at the stats. Johnny Sexton played 15 games for Leinster this season. Brock James was competing with David Skrela for a place and played in 34 games.

I don't think you're making any attempt to see where the French or English clubs are coming from.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Please... Let's look at the stats. Johnny Sexton played 15 games for Leinster this season. Brock James was competing with David Skrela for a place and played in 34 games.

I don't think you're making any attempt to see where the French or English clubs are coming from.

Jonny Sexton also played in the Rugby World Cup and the six nations. He was (and is) contracted by the IRFU and has designated rest periods enforced on Leinster.

I see exactly where the French and English clubs are coming from. They want more money. Many of the English clubs are in the red and the French clubs see the T14 (and the putative T16) as the main source of their income.

The HEC for one is a financial lifeline and for the other is a necessary inconvenience that's getting in the way of their domestic league. Both for different reasons want the 'Celtic' nations to take one for the team so that: For the English, at least one more can get on the gravy train and for the other they can make way for the same number of French clubs in a reduced HEC.

That is exactly what is involved here and all the grandiose talk about improving the European game and bringing in the Romanians, Georgians Portuguese and Falkland Islanders is merely a smokescreen to hide their greed.

The other rubbish about an uncompetitve league and Embra stacking the deck are being used to soften up the press to the idea that the filthy 'celts' are taking more than their fair share.

That's it in a nutshell.

KJY

Only read the first few pages of the thread but it seems a lot of people are missing the point. In my opinion, if only the first 8 in the Rabo were to qualify then the quality of match would be greatly increased, thus making the league harder to win and by extension increasing the need of a strong squad to win the HEC. Think how much better the Rabo would be if come the end of the year, the table toppers are up against teams fighting for HEC rugby, not players who'd rather be on a beach somewhere

molloyjh

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

4 days before playing Munster, you can't blame them scheduling should be looked at imo

Yeah my understanding of the selection of that weaker side was because of the Rabo game a few days later and was in no way relevant to the HEC.

There probably are some changes needed, but I think the issues are being vastly over-stated. For starters the Irish and Welsh sides have to qualify based on their position in the league, albeit relative to the other provinces/regions. This in itself is potentially unfair. Should all 4 Irish provinces come 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th the 4th placed team under the current rules would not qualify for the HEC unless one of the other Irish teams won the Amlin/HEC.

If you look at the success rate of teams that make it into the knock-out phases of the HEC over the last 5 years you get:

Season|English||French||Pro12|
2011-2012|1|14.29%|2|33.33%|5|55.56%
2010-2011|2|33.33%|4|57.14%|2|22.22%
2009-2010|1|14.29%|4|66.67%|3|33.33%
2008-2009|3|42.86%|1|16.67%|4|44.44%
2007-2008|3|42.86%|2|28.57%|3|37.50%


Then look at the success rate of getting to the semis from that:

Season|English||French||Pro12|
2011-2012|0|00.00%|1|50.00%|3|60.00%
2010-2011|1|50.00%|2|50.00%|1|50.00%
2009-2010|0|00.00%|2|50.00%|2|66.67%
2008-2009|1|33.33%|0|00.00%|3|75.00%
2007-2008|2|66.67%|1|50.00%|1|33.33%


And then the success rate from SF to Final:

Season|English||French||Pro12|
2011-2012|0|00.00%|0|00.00%|2|66.67%
2010-2011|1|100.00%|0|00.00%|1|100.00%
2009-2010|0|00.00%|2|100.00%|0|00.00%
2008-2009|1|100.00%|0|00.00%|1|33.33%
2007-2008|0|00.00%|1|100.00%|1|100.00%


It strikes me as fairly obvious that the English sides have dropped off over the last couple of years. Which should really come as no surprise given the quality of a lot of the rugby in England the last few years. But it would seem that, this year excepted, the French were the ones to make the gains from that going into the knock-out phases.

Compare then the step up to the SFs and again the French seem to be right up there with the Pro12 despite having less teams going into the competition, again not including this year.

At this stage it's only fair to see who knocked out who in the SF stage over the years.

Season|
2011-2012|Clermont knocked out by Leinster, Edinburgh by Ulster
2010-2011|Toulouse knocked out by Leinster, Perpignan by the Saints
2009-2010|Leinster knocked out by Toulouse, Munster by Biarritz
2008-2009|Munster knocked out by Leinster, Cardiff by Tigers
2007-2008|London Irish knocked out by Toulouse, Sarries by Munster


So there were 3 French teams knocked out at SF stage in the last 5 years, 2 by Leinster and 1 by Northampton. So France were right up there with the Pro12 up to SF stage. The difference between them going from SF to Final was pretty small - cracking game in Aviva last year, a half an inch of Fofana arm this year and a capitulation to Northampton.

I don't think the French have a leg to stand on tbh. As for England, the standard of rugby in England isn't top class. That neither their clubs nor their national side have really produced the goods over the last few years highlights that there are more pressing internal issues with the game there IMHO. The Ulster-Leicester game this season highlights that for me. It was mid-season and pretty much full strength sides for both and Leicester were played off the park. Even Quinns, who in Round 1 against Connacht had a tough enough time with again an almost full strength side. Or Sarries in Round 6 who just about squeezed past Treviso.

twinytwo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Please... Let's look at the stats. Johnny Sexton played 15 games for Leinster this season. Brock James was competing with David Skrela for a place and played in 34 games.

I don't think you're making any attempt to see where the French or English clubs are coming from.

how many games did he miss for leinster due to the world cup and being rested after the world cup, as well as being gone for international camps etc.

When toulouse won the HC in 2010 there was no mention of us having an advantage, it usually only comes out when they get hammered....

Also lets be honest most of the english clubs are a joke, regardless of weather they could be relegated or not they would still get their ass handed to them.

alias no.9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Perhaps, if you don't understand the discussion! The Leicester game was soon after those games. It's the whole argument.

So they picked the first of two derby matches in 5 days to start a reserve team which lost, then started a pretty much first string team for the second game which they won with a bonus point and a week later started a first string team for another bonus point win, this time away from home, all to outwit the Tigers another week later.

Genius!

I would have rested players in the Munster or Edinburgh game if it was done simply with a view to the HEC, maybe that's why I'm not a pro rugby coach.

Thank you for opening my eyes to this obvious skullduggery :eek:

Jim Corr would be most interested in this conspiracy.

yimrsg

BoarHunter wrote: »

The level of the PRO12 is somewhat weaker than the other leagues considering than most of the teams don't bother giving it a good go. Just compare game time between TOP14 players and others. A player like Mas is 12 matchs over Cian Healy for the season

I can't find how many matches Mas played this season but I'd doubt there would be 12 matches difference, to do that Mas would have had to played in 28 of Perpignan's 32 matches this year, 26 in the top 14 and 6 from the Amlin. That would be very unlikely as Perpignan have 9 props listed in their squad. NIQ players like Du Preez and Van Der Merve play more than both Mas and Healy.

2011/2012:Healy (16) Mas (??) VDM (30) DP (28)
2010/2011:Healy (21) Mas (19) VDM (31) DP (31)
2009/2010:Healy (21) Mas (21)
2008/2009:Healy (23) Mas (25)

Mas stats from here
Healy stats from here
VDM stats from here
DP stats from here

irishbucsfan

twinytwo wrote: »

how many games did he miss for leinster due to the world cup and being rested after the world cup, as well as being gone for international camps etc.

When toulouse won the HC in 2010 there was no mention of us having an advantage, it usually only comes out when they get hammered....

Also lets be honest most of the english clubs are a joke, regardless of weather they could be relegated or not they would still get their ass handed to them.

5 or 6 at the world cup. Skrela was at the world cup too. He played 20 games for Clermont this season and he was injured this season as well as competing with Brock James! (edit no he wasnt what am I thinking!)

I think the top 4 clubs in England are very good in fairness to them.

And this has been an issue for these guys for years, they just couldn't bring it up until now because of the Paris Accord which expires in a couple of weeks.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

5 or 6 at the world cup. Skrela was at the world cup too. He played 20 games for Clermont this season and he was injured this season as well as competing with Brock James! (edit no he wasnt what am I thinking!)

I think the top 4 clubs in England are very good in fairness to them.

And this has been an issue for these guys for years, they just couldn't bring it up until now because of the Paris Accord which expires in a couple of weeks.

So Skrela played 20 games and Brock James played 34?

And they competed for the same slot?

As for the issue being there for years. The T16 idea has only just been mooted in the last few months.

Tox56

The English Top 4 clubs are nowhere near the level many of them used to be. They aren't bad, but I wouldn't be backing Quins or Saracens to win the HEC any time soon, even (hypothetically) without this 'Rabo advantage'.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

So Skrela played 20 games and Brock James played 34?

And they competed for the same slot?

According to the ASM site, Yes. Not really that hard to believe though

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

So Skrela played 20 games and Brock James played 34?

And they competed for the same slot?

As for the issue being there for years. The T16 idea has only just been mooted in the last few months.

What does the Top 16 have to do with the fact the Rabo is easier than the Top 14? The French and English have moaned about the Rabo for ages.

Ah look,if you haven't heard this argument before then you've not been listening. Toulouse fans in particular (Trevor Brennan) have been saying this for bloody ages.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Please... Let's look at the stats. Johnny Sexton played 15 games for Leinster this season. Brock James was competing with David Skrela for a place and played in 34 games.

I don't think you're making any attempt to see where the French or English clubs are coming from.

If you're going to compare players maybe you should compare like with like. Comparing James, who is available all season, to Sexton, who isn't available all season, is a bit disingenuous.

Clermont have played a total of 26 games in the Top14 and 8 in the HEC, so he played in every game for them. That to me seems a bit much in terms of squad management. But if you compare it to someone at Leinster that has been available all season, like say VDM, he has 30 caps this season. Toner has 29. Strauss has 28. Out of 32 games. It's not that far off the mark.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

According to the ASM site, Yes. Not really that hard to believe though

Maybe it's easier to believe if put this way:

Brock James: 20 starts, 14 subs
David Skrela: 13 starts, 7 subs

:rolleyes:

justsomebloke

Just as a matter of interest if Sale were to meet Exeter in a final in Paris how many seats do you think would be sold

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What does the Top 16 have to do with the fact the Rabo is easier than the Top 14? The French and English have moaned about the Rabo for ages.

Ah look,if you haven't heard this argument before then you've not been listening. Toulouse fans in particular (Trevor Brennan) have been saying this for bloody ages.

And if they didn't hear the counter argument then (and they were given it many times) then I'll repeat it now.

The Rabo has nothing to do with the number of slots that individual unions get in the HEC. That's by agreement within the ERC and that agreement has been signed off on; not once, not twice, but three times by ALL the unions involved.

Making snide remarks about it's merits one way or another will have no bearing on what is dicussed at the next accord. That stuff is purely being raised for the press.

If the English want to create an exact same level playing field for their clubs, they are completely free to do so. The same for the French.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

Maybe it's easier to believe if put this way:

Brock James: 20 starts, 14 subs
David Skrela: 13 starts, 7 subs

:rolleyes:

Yes, James has played 34 and Skrela 20. There should be a calculator on your computer there.




What I really like about this renegotiation is that the whole thing has come full circle. Last time out it was Blanco claiming that the Celtic teams were not good enough and the French deserved more of a cut as they were effectively subsidising the Celtic teams. Now they are saying the Celtic teams are too good and they want a fairer competition! Credit to the IRFU for that.

4PP

Lots of good points & counter arguments made here but I'd be lying if I said I've read every single post attentively.
Its a subject I've mentioned on many occasions here & there but I'll repeat my opinion as clearly as I can.

When you mention France & European Cups you must never forget that (generally) Euro titles, attractive as they may be, hold roughly the same interest for them as an Irish province winning something like an AIL cup. If they win, well & good. Of course their will always be the likes of Toulouse etc but they are the exceptions.
"Ovalie", the French rugby public, cares about one thing & one thing only. Le Bouclier.
A Frenchman would give up 10 caps for that bit of wood.

BO & RCT ended up in the Amlin final by default rather than design. BO winning was due in part to the need of the financial comfort of H-Cup rugby next season & Toulon having one eye on what is from their standpoint THE prize.

Btw Biarritz made the cover of the Midol (french rugby bible) on Monday, Leinster got a couple of paragraphs on pages 11 & 12. Thats Europe, but from a French point of view.


Their attack on the inequity of the system (btw for Celts, read Irish) is not with a view to them taking it any more seriously. They just want to slow its (Euro cups) growth & boost the public interest in the T14.

The T16 is a bargainning chip for now & the future. They do not want to be dependent on the Euro Cups to maintain Pierre Publics interest in rugby.

They had no problem with Europe when they were donminating it, it was the icing on the showcase that was French domestic rugby.

For the last few years the country that has best adapted to the rigeurs of the competition whilst remaining competeive in the CL has stolen their thunder.

So now they are throwing their toys out of the pram & their arms in the air:D.

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

The other rubbish about an uncompetitve league and Embra stacking the deck are being used to soften up the press to the idea that the filthy 'celts' are taking more than their fair share.

Paul O Connell and Ronan O Gara have never played a Celtic/Magners/Rabo game against Ulster in Belfast as Munster have traditionally sent up a seconds team for this game.

The last time these two played up there was in 01/02 when Munster sent up their first team for an inter pro game. David Wallace has only played two Celtic/Magners/Rabo games up there and they were way back 03/04 and 04/05.

These three guys are Munsters big name players yet due to IRFU directives and probably injury too they've been pulled from this game.

Ulster have won 6 of the 9 games played even though Munster would have been a much better team over this period.

Wales pulled all their international players from the Rabo so they could play a friendly against Australia on a Rabo weekend this season.

The league is competitive to a point but the above highlights some problems in it and how it is viewed by the relevant unions.

I'm not in favour of changing the HEC qualification because the French and English say so I'm in favour to make our league better.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, James has played 34 and Skrela 20. There should be a calculator on your computer there.

:rolleyes:
A calculator is no good without at least two numbers to work with.

What I really like about this renegotiation is that the whole thing has come full circle. Last time out it was Blanco claiming that the Celtic teams were not good enough and the French deserved more of a cut as they were effectively subsidising the Celtic teams. Now they are saying the Celtic teams are too good and they want a fairer competition! Credit to the IRFU for that.

Which is why your bullsh1t metre should go immediately into the red when you hear French or English interests making comments about another league.

The same arguments get trotted out every time, but are rehashed and rejigged in order to suit the current paradigm. My response would always be, that if you think the Rabo system is better suited to the HEC and you're interested in competing in the HEC then you should set your league up the same way. So top 6 of 8 would be comparable to the Irish and Welsh situation.

Coincidentally two leagues of 8 would be a nice way of giving the French their T16 and also provide them with that second tier of competition they've so assidulously been clamouring for.

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

Paul O Connell and Ronan O Gara have never played a Celtic/Magners/Rabo game against Ulster in Belfast as Munster have traditionally sent up a seconds team for this game.

The last time these two played up there was in 01/02 when Munster sent up their first team for an inter pro game. David Wallace has only played two Celtic/Magners/Rabo games up there and they were way back 03/04 and 04/05.

These three guys are Munsters big name players yet due to IRFU directives and probably injury too they've been pulled from this game.

Ulster have won 6 of the 9 games played even though Munster would have been a much better team over this period.

Wales pulled all their international players from the Rabo so they could play a friendly against Australia on a Rabo weekend this season.

The league is competitive to a point but the above highlights some problems in it and how it is viewed by the relevant unions.

I'm not in favour of changing the HEC qualification because the French and English say so I'm in favour to make our league better.

That's a different argument and not one I'm against. The problem is that all the clamouring about the Rabo has actually drowned out the reality of the situation (which I think was the whole point anyway).

We went seven pages into this thread before anyone noticed that it's not actually the Rabo that qualifies teams for the HEC.

I think some people still don't get it.

4PP

rrpc wrote: »

So Skrela played 20 games and Brock James played 34?

And they competed for the same slot?

As for the issue being there for years. The T16 idea has only just been mooted in the last few months.

Its only a few years ago that France had a Top 16, prior to there were several systems that required minimum applied maths to comprehend

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

:rolleyes:
A calculator is no good without at least two numbers to work with.


Which is why your bullsh1t metre should go immediately into the red when you hear French or English interests making comments about another league.

The same arguments get trotted out every time, but are rehashed and rejigged in order to suit the current paradigm. My response would always be, that if you think the Rabo system is better suited to the HEC and you're interested in competing in the HEC then you should set your league up the same way. So top 6 of 8 would be comparable to the Irish and Welsh situation.

Coincidentally two leagues of 8 would be a nice way of giving the French their T16 and also provide them with that second tier of competition they've so assidulously been clamouring for.

Except I couldn't give a **** about French or English bull****. I work in London across the road from HQ and I know plenty of people involved with rugby here and how ridiculously far removed from reality their view of rugby is. I can only imagine the French alicadoos are much more melodramatic.

I honestly couldnt give a toss about what they think or how they view Irish domestic rugby. It's irrelevant to me.

However their claim that the Heineken Cup is unfair is completely correct and a merit based qualification system would make the Heineken cup and the Rabo much more interesting for me as a fan. And I'd love nothing more than implementing their changes and then watching an Irish team win the whole thing again just to drive them up the wall even more.

They were completely wrong in 2007, as i believed at the time, and that has been proved to be the case. I think their argument this year, irregardless of their motives, is spot on.



Also, the RFU is not the sole English representative on the ERC. Not sure if the LNR are represented but Premier Rugby are.

alias no.9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, James has played 34 and Skrela 20. There should be a calculator on your computer there.




What I really like about this renegotiation is that the whole thing has come full circle. Last time out it was Blanco claiming that the Celtic teams were not good enough and the French deserved more of a cut as they were effectively subsidising the Celtic teams. Now they are saying the Celtic teams are too good and they want a fairer competition! Credit to the IRFU for that.

Nacewa would be a good comparison for James (no internationals etc...) and while he only played 26 games, he played a full 80 in most bringing his total gametime to 2012 minutes, compared to James' 1780 minutes from 33.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

We went seven pages into this thread before anyone noticed that it's not actually the Rabo that qualifies teams for the HEC.

I think some people still don't get it.

Who is this? I didn't see anyone getting this wrong.

yimrsg

James has been used much more than other outhalfs in the top 14 so it's not necessarily fair comparing him to Sexton when he's played the most in the competition. The French 6N outhalfs, Beauxis and Trinh-Duc only played around 50% of their league games and they don't have the player management scheme that the IRFU imposes on Sexton.

James (26)
Bernard (26)
Peyrelongue (23)
McAlister (21)
Warwick (21)
Fernandez (19)
Wilkinson (18)
Contepomi (18)
Wisniewski (18)
Hernandez (17)
Skrela (15)
Beauxis (15)
Trinh-Duc (13)

irishbucsfan

yimrsg wrote: »

James has been used much more than other outhalfs in the top 14 so it's not necessarily fair comparing him to Sexton when he's played the most in the competition. The French 6N outhalfs, Beauxis and Trinh-Duc only played around 50% of their league games and they don't have the player management scheme that the IRFU imposes on Sexton.

James (26)
Bernard (26)
Peyrelongue (23)
McAlister (21)
Warwick (21)
Fernandez (19)
Wilkinson (18)
Contepomi (18)
Wisniewski (18)
Hernandez (17)
Skrela (15)
Beauxis (15)
Trinh-Duc (13)

Fair enough, Sexton would still be last on that list by a long way with 7 starts though.