Heineken Cup: Do we have an unfair advantage?

Pisco Sour

Obviously it’s great to see Irish teams win Heineken Cups. Munster beating Biarritz to finally break the Anglo-French stranglehold was one of the great moments in Irish sport (particularly because it was brought to us live on RTE), as indeed was Leinster’s maiden win in 2009, when they left behind some of the unfair criticism they had been getting up to that point. Each of the 5 wins in the last 7 years have been great moments, but the increasing dominance of Irish teams has got me thinking, do we really have an unfair advantage in the Heineken Cup? Are Leinster really the best team in Europe, or just the team who rested their players for the Heineken Cup the best?

It doesn’t seem right that the French and English teams have to worry about:

1) Qualification for next season’s Heineken Cup
2) Avoiding relegation

While 11 of the 12 Pro 12 teams can just qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of how good/bad/indifferent they perform domestically. Is it right that our teams can rest players domestically and have ourselves in tip-top shape for big Heineken Cup matches, while the French and English have to take both competitions equally seriously?

My personal opinion would be, that if a European Super League existed right now, Clermont would prove to be the best team in Europe, and not Leinster. Under the Heineken Cup format, Clermont clearly didn’t go into that game the fresher of the two, and that to me indicates a serious flaw in the competition, which in the interests of fairness, needs to be rectified.

If Leinster and Munster didn’t have the luxury to rest players domestically, would they have won as many Heineken Cups during the last 7 years? A couple no doubt, but 5? I’d have my doubts.

This worries me and I think our dominance could come back to haunt us if something isn’t done soon. The French and English could easily get fed up of the competition and boycott. It nearly happened 5 years ago. Who’s to say they wont do it again? In the end of the day, they don’t need the Heineken Cup like we do. They can survive fine off their domestic league, but the Irish teams would be screwed without the French and English involvement in the competition. We rely on them a lot and without the competition they provide us, the provinces would be nothing.

I’d like to see a complete change in qualification:

Top 8 from England
Top 9 from France
Top 1 from Ireland
Top 1 from Wales
Top 1 from Scotland
Top 1 from Italy
Top 3 from the rest of Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy

That to me would be a fairer competition for all, and if they Irish were to then prevail, there could be no doubt about our superiority. Right now, I don’t think there is a true level playing field.

What are people’s thoughts?

razorblunt

England have too many teams as it is IMHO, teams in 6th/7th, strolling into the competition and realistically how many of those teams are actually fighting relegation, fair enough Wasps this year but start of the season you would have said Exeter and Newcastle. It's always Exeter plus A.N.Other no others come into the mix.

hardCopy

The others are free to change their qualification criteria or domestic structures as they see fit.

They should at least reduce the number of teams/games in their leagues.

Sindri

You'd be switching Ulster and Cardiff for inferior teams, teams which could not probably compete in the Heineken, as Ulster and Cardiff would not qualify for next seasons Heineken Cup.

Also, you need the Scottish and Italian teams to qualify if you want to grow the sport and develop it in these countries, particularly Italy as we are still in the early years of professionalism and if we don't develop the sport in Italy, which the Heineken Cup will play a big part in they'll remain as the whipping boys of the Pro12, 6 Nations as well as the Heineken Cup.

A better suggestion would be doing away with relegation in the Aviva Premiership all together for the moment. And maybe expanding the Heineken Cup if England or France were to actually pull out of it though that's unlikely.

irishbucsfan

I think we do have an unfair advantage. That's pretty clear. I think Leinster would have won it either way this year but Edinburgh showed exactly how Rabo teams can completely abuse their domestic league in favour of Europe.

I think a system of 7 top teams from each competition would be fair, plus the two winners and highest ranked unqualified team.


I'd welcome that with open arms. It would stop the whining from England/France and it would improve the Rabo as well as the Heineken Cup

ffs. This resting players nonsense has got to stop.

To compete in a league that's longer than 10 games long, you need to have replacements at every position. You need to rotate a squad. You need to develop players. You have to mix it up. Leinster clearly have a 60/20 game pattern in most games. This involves bringing on players that do not weaken the side, and would have been in contention to start, without breaking up a gameplan.

Leinster have been sensational at those things since before even Schmidt came along.

The Ulster of now remind me of the Leinster of Cheika's time. There's a team there that can win games, no doubt about it. But there's depth missing. There is though, plenty of talent available to them that is going to start to be integrated into the team. Ulster are kicking into 3rd gear quite shortly with their development. Cheika put massive steps into the academy. A lot of it didn't exactly work out. We've been smashed sending academy players over to Wales and Scotland a few times. But we started giving them a chance, and they started repaying the faith.

Leinster's main contributors to the side over the past 10 years are guys that have come up through the ranks, through the development process, were exposed gradually to first team football, were given opportunities to take responsibility, and when it didn't quite work, were given some shielding and some time to get back to where they were hoped to be.

Leinster's acheivements have benefitted massively from developing a squad that has at least 2 players in each position, and in many cases 4 and 5. They haven't bought these players in. They are guys that have been developed. They've made some shrewd acquisitions in the NIQ department to bolster areas of specific weakness, but shock horror, this is what the NIQs are supposed to be for!

There's nothing stopping any other team in Europe building an academy and trusting the output.

The only unfair advantage that Irish teams have over others is that they have recognised that 15 men may win a game, but they won't win a season.

Pisco Sour

razorblunt wrote: »

England have too many teams as it is IMHO, teams in 6th/7th, strolling into the competition and realistically how many of those teams are actually fighting relegation, fair enough Wasps this year but start of the season you would have said Exeter and Newcastle. It's always Exeter plus A.N.Other no others come into the mix.

As opposed to Connaght, Edinburgh etc strolling into the competition? Coming 6th and 7th in England is far harder to achieve than not coming last in Pro12.

Dravokivich

I'd put forward the arguement that even though a considerable amount of Leinster's XV were away on international duty through out Pro 12 with the RWC and 6N, games were still being won with the remainder of the squad. Good management of the team got them where they are this season along with the quality of the players.

04072511

04072511 wrote: »

As opposed to Connacht, Edinburgh etc strolling into the competition? Coming 6th and 7th in England is far harder to achieve than not coming last in Pro12.

European Rugby Competition.
Not "champions of europe" - very succinct distinction needs to be made.

Allots places based on country first, then the rest divided out.

If there were simply an Irish league, there'd be four teams competing in it.
If there were simply a Scottish league, there'd be two.
If there were simply an Italian league there'd be 1.8 teams!

Because the Rabo is an amalgamation of these three plus the Welsh, it has to have a different qualification process than the French and English leagues.

I would agree with you somewhat about the difference in the way the rabo teams should be allocated positions. I think the 1/1/1/1 is too little though, and I think the 8/9 split is ridiculous tbh. We need to retain it as as "pan-European" as possible competition, not a "champions of champions" competition.

Pisco Sour

Deleted User wrote: »

ffs. This resting players nonsense has got to stop.

To compete in a league that's longer than 10 games long, you need to have replacements at every position. You need to rotate a squad. You need to develop players. You have to mix it up. Leinster clearly have a 60/20 game pattern in most games. This involves bringing on players that do not weaken the side, and would have been in contention to start, without breaking up a gameplan.

Leinster have been sensational at those things since before even Schmidt came along.

The Ulster of now remind me of the Leinster of Cheika's time. There's a team there that can win games, no doubt about it. But there's depth missing. There is though, plenty of talent available to them that is going to start to be integrated into the team. Ulster are kicking into 3rd gear quite shortly with their development. Cheika put massive steps into the academy. A lot of it didn't exactly work out. We've been smashed sending academy players over to Wales and Scotland a few times. But we started giving them a chance, and they started repaying the faith.

Leinster's main contributors to the side over the past 10 years are guys that have come up through the ranks, through the development process, were exposed gradually to first team football, were given opportunities to take responsibility, and when it didn't quite work, were given some shielding and some time to get back to where they were hoped to be.

Leinster's acheivements have benefitted massively from developing a squad that has at least 2 players in each position, and in many cases 4 and 5. They haven't bought these players in. They are guys that have been developed. They've made some shrewd acquisitions in the NIQ department to bolster areas of specific weakness, but shock horror, this is what the NIQs are supposed to be for!

There's nothing stopping any other team in Europe building an academy and trusting the output.

The only unfair advantage that Irish teams have over others is that they have recognised that 15 men may win a game, but they won't win a season.

Pure denial.

Nobody is saying that Leinster haven't got a magnificent team and the job done at the academy has been excellent.

But to suggest that Irish teams don't have any advantage whatsoever is ludicrous IMO. Answer me this: Imagine if the Heineken Cup, Pro12, GP, T14 were all scrapped next year, and a European League was formed. Suppose the top division consisted of Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Clermont, Leicester etc. Each team plays each other home and away. No playoffs, no other commitments. Just team with most points is European Champion. Do Leinster still win? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't be confident of it.

Not saying a European League is the way forward, just a way of illustrating things. Fairer qualification across the 3 leagues is the way to go, which will, as another poster said, stop the (understandable) French and English whining.

Pisco Sour

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'd put forward the arguement that even though a considerable amount of Leinster's XV were away on international duty through out Pro 12 with the RWC and 6N, games were still being won with the remainder of the squad. Good management of the team got them where they are this season along with the quality of the players.

Against other teams who had players away on international duty. Not a valid argument.

04072511

04072511 wrote: »

Pure denial.

Nobody is saying that Leinster haven't got a magnificent team and the job done at the academy has been excellent.

But to suggest that Irish teams don't have any advantage whatsoever is ludicrous IMO. Answer me this: Imagine if the Heineken Cup, Pro12, GP, T14 were all scrapped next year, and a European League was formed. Suppose the top division consisted of Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Clermont, Leicester etc. Each team plays each other home and away. No playoffs, no other commitments. Just team with most points is European Champion. Do Leinster still win? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't be confident of it.

Not saying a European League is the way forward, just a way of illustrating things. Fairer qualification across the 3 leagues is the way to go, which will, as another poster said, stop the (understandable) French and English whining.

leagues are not cups.

JustinDee

I think a lot of people here are forgetting the main purpose of the ERC competitions. They are in place in order to promote and grow the sport domestically and in turn, internationally.

Right now 'Europe' consists of just three professional competitions: Celtic, English and French. Rugby union is not large enough to even remotely follow soccer in its competition structures as it pales in comparison.
Hence the feeding structure we see now of the ERC competitions. Remember that the ERC is made up of the higher-tier member unions. It is not as if no-one gets a say.

Most of those who find the competition "unfair" within the sport tend to be involved with privately-owned franchises. I feel anyway, that they see no further than their own front-gate.

*(the Russian competition is not professional in the same class. It is mostly played by semi-pros . . . at best).

totallegend

04072511 wrote: »

Pure denial.

Nobody is saying that Leinster haven't got a magnificent team and the job done at the academy has been excellent.

But to suggest that Irish teams don't have any advantage whatsoever is ludicrous IMO. Answer me this: Imagine if the Heineken Cup, Pro12, GP, T14 were all scrapped next year, and a European League was formed. Suppose the top division consisted of Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Clermont, Leicester etc. Each team plays each other home and away. No playoffs, no other commitments. Just team with most points is European Champion. Do Leinster still win? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't be confident of it.

Not saying a European League is the way forward, just a way of illustrating things. Fairer qualification across the 3 leagues is the way to go, which will, as another poster said, stop the (understandable) French and English whining.

You obviously feel strongly about this and I don't think any argument is going to change your mind, but I'll have a go anyway:

Let's say that your qualification model is adopted. How will that solve the problem of French teams like Castres and Racing entering the HC but not actually caring about it? In fact, will it not make the situation worse? Under your model, we'd have Bordeaux-Begles in next year's HC, how much effort do you think they'd put in?

You say that the problem that French and English clubs face is the threat of relegation; how will putting more French and English clubs (and fewer Rabo teams) into the HC solve that?

Two questions there, I'd be interested in your answers.

Also, you seem a bit aggrieved that Clermont did not win the trophy; have you seen the size of their squad? They have more than enough players to rotate sufficiently but they were beaten by a better Leinster team on the day. And if it was a league format? Clermont have now lost to Leinster in three of the last four clashes, how would that look in a league table?
Leinster; P4 W3 L1 BP1 = 13 pts
Clermont; P4 W1 L3 BP2 = 6 pts

bamboozle

whether we like it or not Irish domination of the HC will dilute French and English interest. How we go about keeping them interested? For one make qualification from the rabo competitive, maybe even cede 1 HC spot to the French/English on rotation.

as the OP says if it continues like it currently is then the french and english will lose interest. Although i guess tv and gate receipts from HC adds greatly to the purses of their teams.

In england next season all teams are allowed 1 marquee signing above their salary cap, in effect this sould increase their salary cap by 300-400k so squads should be somewhat stronger.

OldRio

Regarding England.
The rule changes implemented by the RFU may mean no relegation.
Depending on which team wins the championship.

Let the English clubs bleat their little hearts out.
Money talks.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Also, you seem a bit aggrieved that Clermont did not win the trophy; have you seen the size of their squad? They have more than enough players to rotate sufficiently but they were beaten by a better Leinster team on the day.

Clermont were half an inch worth of bicep from a final, I certainly wouldn't have been able to begrudge them the victory. It would be 2-2 in league format then.

The margins here are tight, that is what makes cup rugby fantastic viewing, even for neutrals.

Clermont could easily have been the ones set up for a home and euro double this season.

rrpc

First of all, the relegation argument is a false one. None of the English or French teams in the HEC have any realistic chance of being relegated. The Newcastle Falcons who were relegated this year won only 6 of their premiership games and were not even in the Heineken Cup. Wasps, the other relegation canididate also only won 6 games and also were not in the HEC, but were in the Amlin.

In the T14, Brive and Lyon (7 and 5 wins respectively) will be relegated; both were in the Amlin only. The next two above them (Bayonne and Perpignan) also were not in the HEC and likewise Worcester in the Premiership.

Looking at it from the qualification point of view, 6th place in the T14 was Racing Metro with 13 wins (half of their matches) in the premiership it was just 10; less than half. Not exactly daunting requirements and if (as is often stated) the league has higher weighting in the Premiership and T14 then winning half your games would be a minimum requirement for a resaonable season and certainly would avoid the relegation trap.

Therefore the second point that it's difficult to focus on the league and the HEC is moot as a good league position will almost always qualify you for the HEC and avoid relegation.

Moving on to player rotation. Taking Leinster as an example (and since Leinster won the HEC, it's the best one) most of the first team players had extended absences this season due to the RWC and the 6N. With the exceptions of Nacewa and Strauss (and possibly VdM) all of them were missing for league games. This meant that a 'seconds' team was used for many of these games and even in the HEC pool matches many of these 'seconds' got starts. Ian Madigan, Jamie Hagan and Dave Kearney had 1 start each for example. Leinster clearly didn't focus solely on the HEC, they went all out for league position and finished 10 points ahead at the top and are now in the final.

There may be an argument that the league doesn't present as much of a challenge as say the Premiership or the T14, but if you're looking at the qualification zone in both those leagues (top 6 roughly) then that same zone in the Rabo is equally competitive:

T14|Wins|AP|Wins|Rabo|Wins
Toulouse|19|Quins|17|Leinster|18
Clermont|19|Leicester|15|Ospreys|16
Toulon|14|Saracens|16|Munster|14
Castres|14|Saints|14|Glasgow|13
Montpellier|14|Exeter|12|Scarlets|12
Racing|13|Sale|10|Ulster|12

Teams in bold qualified for the knock-out stages of the HEC, in italics for the knock-out stages of the Amlin.

The real meat of the argument though comes down to squad rotation and development. When Leinster played Clermont in the semi-final, their squad depth was heavily exposed. Injuries to key players meant that they had a fairly bare cupboard to draw from for their bench and even their starting XV. Back in the heydey of Toulouse, they would regularly field a team of world class players with a bench full of more world class players.

Joe Schmidt has a squad of 40 players and has played all of them this season. Some have had only a couple of starts but many of those had injuries which curtailed their season. There's only one way to compete on two fronts and Joe has had the balls to do it. Bringing John Cooney (who'd had a mare earlier in the season) on in the final, was testament to that.

After the final, Leinster will have played 33 games this season. Has any French or English team had that wall to climb?

desertcircus

If Leinster were in the same domestic league as Clermont would they win? Maybe not. If Leinster were in the same domestic league and Schmidt wasn't limited in the number of NIQs allowed? They probably would. Each team has advantages and disadvantages.

The tournament is designed to build the game as a whole, not just reward teams for performance. Maybe the eighth-placed English team might do better than Aironi or Connacht, but two things need to be remembered: one, Edinburgh's performance shows that it's by no means a certainty, and two, we need a far more convincing case than "maybe they'll do better" to effectively give up on the professional game in Italy, and do it severe damage in Scotland and Wales.

A few years ago the argument was that the Celtic teams weren't competitive enough and thus the English and French teams should get more slots. Now the argument is that the Celtic teams are too competitive and thus the English and French teams should get more slots. It's not a serious argument; it's simple greed and selfishness.

irishbucsfan

Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?

TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.

irishbucsfan

Also, something is going to have to change. The accord of 2007 has expired and theres nothing to stop the French pulling out now.

jacothelad

04072511 wrote: »

Obviously it’s great to see Irish teams win Heineken Cups. Munster beating Biarritz to finally break the Anglo-French stranglehold was one of the great moments in Irish sport (particularly because it was brought to us live on RTE), as indeed was Leinster’s maiden win in 2009, when they left behind some of the unfair criticism they had been getting up to that point. Each of the 5 wins in the last 7 years have been great moments, but the increasing dominance of Irish teams has got me thinking, do we really have an unfair advantage in the Heineken Cup? Are Leinster really the best team in Europe, or just the team who rested their players for the Heineken Cup the best?

It doesn’t seem right that the French and English teams have to worry about:

1) Qualification for next season’s Heineken Cup
2) Avoiding relegation

While 11 of the 12 Pro 12 teams can just qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of how good/bad/indifferent they perform domestically. Is it right that our teams can rest players domestically and have ourselves in tip-top shape for big Heineken Cup matches, while the French and English have to take both competitions equally seriously?

My personal opinion would be, that if a European Super League existed right now, Clermont would prove to be the best team in Europe, and not Leinster. Under the Heineken Cup format, Clermont clearly didn’t go into that game the fresher of the two, and that to me indicates a serious flaw in the competition, which in the interests of fairness, needs to be rectified.

If Leinster and Munster didn’t have the luxury to rest players domestically, would they have won as many Heineken Cups during the last 7 years? A couple no doubt, but 5? I’d have my doubts.

This worries me and I think our dominance could come back to haunt us if something isn’t done soon. The French and English could easily get fed up of the competition and boycott. It nearly happened 5 years ago. Who’s to say they wont do it again? In the end of the day, they don’t need the Heineken Cup like we do. They can survive fine off their domestic league, but the Irish teams would be screwed without the French and English involvement in the competition. We rely on them a lot and without the competition they provide us, the provinces would be nothing.

I’d like to see a complete change in qualification:

Top 8 from England
Top 9 from France
Top 1 from Ireland
Top 1 from Wales
Top 1 from Scotland
Top 1 from Italy
Top 3 from the rest of Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy

That to me would be a fairer competition for all, and if they Irish were to then prevail, there could be no doubt about our superiority. Right now, I don’t think there is a true level playing field.

What are people’s thoughts?

You find this stuff slopping about in the bottom of your boat. Why on Earth would you want to see even more poor English sides in the Heineken Cup when you seem to be whining that they already have too much on their plate?

04072511 wrote: »

As opposed to Connaght, Edinburgh etc strolling into the competition? Coming 6th and 7th in England is far harder to achieve than not coming last in Pro12.

Connacht didn't stroll in to the competition. They got in because Ireland earned an extra place as an Irish team won the Cup. Just in the same way that an extra English and an extra French team get in on the same basis. Also Connacht have a budget of about one third of the average Aviva team and a quarter or much less than a French side.

Edinburgh are in the competition as it is run by the Unions, not the leagues. They also run on a budget that some teams spend on their academies.

Before you spout more claptrap perhaps you should actually look at the number of games each player actually plays before pontificating about players being 'rested' or look at the size of the squads in each team.

Here is your starter for 10.
Leicester Tigers. Squad. 47 Senior Players including 31 international players. Played 22 plus 6 ERC games.

Here are some front line players chosen at random

Dan Cole Played 20.
Manu Tuilagi Played 12
Ben Youngs Played 14

Ulster Rugby. 38 players including 15 internationals. Played 22 plus 9 ERC games.


Here are some front line players chosen at random

Tom Court Played 21
Dan Tuohy Played 28
Paul Marshall Played 27



Harlequins. 37 Senior Players. (19? Internationals) Played 22 plus 6 ERC

Connacht. 37 Senior Players including 9 internationals. Played 22 plus 6 ERC games.

Wow! look at all the extra games the Aviva sides have to play. Ooops! Maybe not.

pickarooney

I don't understand how 1) and 2) are different things? If you do well enough in the Aviva or Top14 to qualify for the HEC then you won't get relegated.

The French teams have much greater pulling power than the Irish (or Scottish, Welsh and English) sides so they should be able to compete on both fronts with the kind of squads they're able to afford.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?

TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.

That leagues aren't cups.

How many times have we heard of "giant killers" in the FA cup in premiership football. How many times have we seen that teams up their game on cup day.

Clearly Edinburgh milked this beyond belief this season, but unless their opinion of the league as some may see it (to use it only as a development ground for a run at the HEC) looks as though it may become the "norm" for some of the weaker countries (and for example, we need Scottish representation) then I wouldn't be troubled by it.

It's akin to the hosts at the WC getting through the knock outs, and people moaning "oh they only qualified by default, we had to get through X stages, our players were tired etc".

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?

TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.

I'll answer that, and say that even had there been relegation along the lines of the Premiership (one spot) then Embra wouldn't have been relegated anyway.

We've seen all kinds of dysfunctional behaviour from teams in the HEC. From the behaviour of Embra this season and the likes of Bourgoin in seasons past.

You don't make rules according to the exceptions, time will sort them out (as it has with Bourgoin).

totallegend

And let's be honest, really honest. It's not the qualification system that bother the French/English, it's the fact that they haven't been winning the trophy.

Does anyone really think that if the system is changed and the Irish teams continue to win, the French will just go, "c'est la vie" and accept it? Will they f**k.

Right, so once that is established, does anyone think that Leinster would struggle to fill one of the Rabo qualification slots, whatever system is put in place? No, they'd breeze in, as would Munster. So in the context of the last five years, what would have changed? Nothing.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?

TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.

I'll answer that, and say that even had there been relegation along the lines of the Premiership (one spot) then Embra wouldn't have been relegated anyway.

We've seen all kinds of dysfunctional behaviour from teams in the HEC. From the behaviour of Embra this season and the likes of Bourgoin in seasons past.

You don't make rules according to the exceptions, time will sort them out (as it has with Bourgoin).

Noones talking about relegation? Were talking about a merit based qualification process for the Heineken Cup.

Under the proposed system Edinburgh (and Cardiff) wouldnt have qualified for next season. Ulster only by the skin of their teeth.

These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo. I honestly don't see why we shouldn't bring them in in some form

rrpc

totallegend wrote: »

And let's be honest, really honest. It's not the qualification system that bother the French/English, it's the fact that they haven't been winning the trophy. getting all the money.

Does anyone really think that if the system is changed and the Irish teams continue to win, the French will just go, "c'est la vie" and accept it? Will they f**k.

Right, so once that is established, does anyone think that Leinster would struggle to fill one of the Rabo qualification slots, whatever system is put in place? No, they'd breeze in, as would Munster. So in the context of the last five years, what would have changed? Nothing.

FYP

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

And let's be honest, really honest. It's not the qualification system that bother the French/English, it's the fact that they haven't been winning the trophy.

Does anyone really think that if the system is changed and the Irish teams continue to win, the French will just go, "c'est la vie" and accept it? Will they f**k.

Right, so once that is established, does anyone think that Leinster would struggle to fill one of the Rabo qualification slots, whatever system is put in place? No, they'd breeze in, as would Munster. So in the context of the last five years, what would have changed? Nothing.

Leinster and Munster weren't the only teams though. You've missed the point. Noone is begrudging leinster over here.

Cardiff, Edinburgh and Ulster would have had to approach the competition completely differently

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noones talking about relegation? Were talking about a merit based qualification process for the Heineken Cup.

Under the proposed system Edinburgh (and Cardiff) wouldnt have qualified for next season. Ulster only by the skin of their teeth.

These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo. I honestly don't see why we shouldn't bring them in in some form

Because firstly (and all those making these kinds of arguments seem to conveniently forget this) the HEC accord is agreed by the home unions. That's the Irish, Scottish, English, French, Welsh and Italian unions. They each want adequate representation in the competition because they want to grow and develop the sport in their respective countries. The league is just a method of doling out their respective allocations, not a european wide qualification system.

Before the Italian clubs joined the Rabo, they just gave out their slots without any real qualification. Effectively the system is the same in the Rabo and everyone looking in is saying it's too easy :rolleyes:

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noones talking about relegation? Were talking about a merit based qualification process for the Heineken Cup.

Under the proposed system Edinburgh (and Cardiff) wouldnt have qualified for next season. Ulster only by the skin of their teeth.

These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo. I honestly don't see why we shouldn't bring them in in some form

Because firstly (and all those making these kinds of arguments seem to conveniently forget this) the HEC accord is agreed by the home unions. That's the Irish, Scottish, English, French, Welsh and Italian unions. They each want adequate representation in the competition because they want to grow and develop the sport in their respective countries. The league is just a method of doling out their respective allocations, not a european wide qualification system.

Before the Italian clubs joined the Rabo, they just gave out their slots without any real qualification. Effectively the system is the same in the Rabo and everyone looking in is saying it's too easy :rolleyes:

Yes. What you've done here is state why it would be hard to make the change, not whether or not the change should be made.

There is plenty if middle ground to find. We could guarantee each nation in the Rabo at least one place awarded to their highest finishing team. That maintains interest from all nations.

As you said the member nations of the ERC agreed the accord in 2007. That was on the back of the threat of one of them pulling out. So to say that one nation can't make a demand is incorrect, just as assuming that the two most powerful nations, in unison, could not unite and force a much-needed change through. There is nothing to prevent the Anglo-French cup being formed in 2014, let's not forget. Then the Rabo teams are screwed.

Jimoslimos

Swings and roundabouts.

Leinster do benefit to an extent but on the flip side they don't have access to the much larger player pool in England or the vast wealth of some of the T14 clubs with limitless ability to bring in expensive imports.

The English and French might argue that the Celtic league sides, without fear of relegation, can rotate and hence build stronger squads. They however, are under pressure to put out the strongest side every week leaving little scope for development.

Their problem. In the goal to produce a league akin to the Premiership in soccer the physical demands on the players has been forgotten. I'm loath to get into arguments over which sport is tougher, yada yada but IMO it is unrealistic and potentially damaging to expect players to play week in week out in a high-impact sport like rugby.

The aviva and T14 leagues could implement a rule, where players can only play a maximum of 70-75% matches in a season - this would force clubs to develop players (although in the French clubs' case - just buy more probably) and would serve them better in the long run.

Jimoslimos

Jimoslimos wrote: »

The aviva and T14 leagues could implement a rule, where players can only play a maximum of 70-75% matches in a season - this would force clubs to develop players (although in the French clubs' case - just buy more probably) and would serve them better in the long run.

That's a bad idea imo. (Because it's something that they should be trying to do without rules, and could actually become something that becomes important when someone is getting close to their "limit". It's up to the clubs to do this kind of thing themselves. If they don't, and they complain about injuries, retirements, lack of depth etc, then there's nobody else to blame but themselves)

DeDoc

04072511 wrote: »

Obviously it’s great to see Irish teams win Heineken Cups. Munster beating Biarritz to finally break the Anglo-French stranglehold was one of the great moments in Irish sport (particularly because it was brought to us live on RTE), as indeed was Leinster’s maiden win in 2009, when they left behind some of the unfair criticism they had been getting up to that point. Each of the 5 wins in the last 7 years have been great moments, but the increasing dominance of Irish teams has got me thinking, do we really have an unfair advantage in the Heineken Cup? Are Leinster really the best team in Europe, or just the team who rested their players for the Heineken Cup the best?

It doesn’t seem right that the French and English teams have to worry about:

1) Qualification for next season’s Heineken Cup
2) Avoiding relegation

While 11 of the 12 Pro 12 teams can just qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of how good/bad/indifferent they perform domestically. Is it right that our teams can rest players domestically and have ourselves in tip-top shape for big Heineken Cup matches, while the French and English have to take both competitions equally seriously?

My personal opinion would be, that if a European Super League existed right now, Clermont would prove to be the best team in Europe, and not Leinster. Under the Heineken Cup format, Clermont clearly didn’t go into that game the fresher of the two, and that to me indicates a serious flaw in the competition, which in the interests of fairness, needs to be rectified.

If Leinster and Munster didn’t have the luxury to rest players domestically, would they have won as many Heineken Cups during the last 7 years? A couple no doubt, but 5? I’d have my doubts.

This worries me and I think our dominance could come back to haunt us if something isn’t done soon. The French and English could easily get fed up of the competition and boycott. It nearly happened 5 years ago. Who’s to say they wont do it again? In the end of the day, they don’t need the Heineken Cup like we do. They can survive fine off their domestic league, but the Irish teams would be screwed without the French and English involvement in the competition. We rely on them a lot and without the competition they provide us, the provinces would be nothing.

I’d like to see a complete change in qualification:

Top 8 from England
Top 9 from France
Top 1 from Ireland
Top 1 from Wales
Top 1 from Scotland
Top 1 from Italy
Top 3 from the rest of Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy

That to me would be a fairer competition for all, and if they Irish were to then prevail, there could be no doubt about our superiority. Right now, I don’t think there is a true level playing field.

What are people’s thoughts?

OK, I'll bite...

Firstly, there are 10, not 11 slots for the countries involved in the Rabo league. There are 6 for England and France, and the remaining two are for the Amlin and HEC winners.

Secondly, if there was an over-representation of Rabo teams in the league, you would expect that the number of match points gained by the Rabo sides would be lower, on average, than those gained by T14 or Aviva sides. The facts don't bear this out. If you take this years competition, 46% of the participants were from the Rabo, 29% from the Aviva and 25% from the T14. The points won in cross-league clashes were 40%, 30%, 30% - not a significant difference. Furthermore, when you look more closely, at where teams got their points - the English and French sides picked up 47% of their haul against the bottom Rabo sides. The top Rabo sides only picked up 26% of theirs agains the bottom Rabo sides.
Rabo sides average group position was 2.36 (best possible would be 1.45). T14 sides were 2.5 (best possible would be 1.00), Aviva were 2.71 (best possible of 1.14)

Next - the question of whether the Rabo sides take the HEC more seriously. Firstly you could just as flippantly remark that some of the Aviva/T14 sides (and you'd be particularly on the money with the latter) don't take the HEC seriously, so shouldn't complain about others who do. Were this the case, we'd expect to see a difference in the performance(e.g. match points won) in Europe versus domestically. You don't actually see this if you look over a 3 year (as an example) timespan - there are a few teams who underachieve in Europe (e.g. Clermont, Leicester) compared to domestic leagues and a few who over-achieve (e.g. Stade Francais, Wasps).
People were quoting the example of Edinburgh this season - well what about Saints making the semis a few years back while getting themselves relegated in domestic fare? It might be more pertinent to have a closer look at Edinburghs results. Their winning margins in their group were 1, 1, -17, 7, 3 and 23 (against a LI team who were already gone). They could just as easily have been going into that game 0/5 rather than 4/5. They rode their luck to get their (and more power to them) and caught Toulouse on the hop. It doesn't mean they blew off the league to concentrate on the cup - I think it rather means that they just aren't very good and were in a very weak pool.

Next - resting players. Try the following. Go to Tigers, Toulouse and Clermont - three top sides in those leagues who supply lots of players to their international teams. Now pick out those internationals who were first choice for both world cup and 6N. We're talking the likes of Cole, Flood, Croft, Dusattoir, Servat, Parra, Rougerie etc. They are directly comparable to the likes of Healy, Ross, Heaslip, O'Brien, Reddan, Sexton, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Kearney. See how much gametime they have had for their clubs - it is pretty similar to what the Irish lads have had. ALL good sides manage the game time of their top players, and the better the side the better they do this - Clermont and Toulouse have been doing it for years.
Regarding Clermont being fresher for the semi-final - they had the same days rest, and if you compare their lineup versus Montpellier to ours versus Ulster, you'll see they're pretty comparable in terms of being close to full-strength

I would like to see some change in European qualification, but for different reasons to you, and with a very different balance than you have there. I think the Amlin needs to have more presence (or at least the possibility of one) from the Celts and Italy, while I also think the Rabo could benefit from some more drama at the seasons end for those not in top 4 contention. I'd like to see 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scot, 1 Italian get in automatically, plus the next two highest placed Rabo sides - for 8 guaranteed. 5 guaranteed from each of England and France. That is 18 places in total. The remaining 6 places for the nationality (or league if the country has no more teams) of the two Amlin finalists and the 4 HEC semi-finalists

Were that applied to this year, you'd have Leinster, Munster, Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow, Treviso, Clermont, Toulouse, Toulon, Castres, Montpellier, Quins, Tigers, Saracens, Saints, Exeter qualifying by right.
Next two places in the Rabo would be Ulster and Cardiff.
European results would see Ireland getting 2 extra places, Scotland 1 and France 3. That would see Connacht, Dragons (next highest placed Rabo team as no more Irish sides) Edinburgh, Racing, Stade and Biarritz also qualifying. The net change from what has actually happened would be Dragons replacing the bottom Italian side and Stade replacing Sale.

justsomebloke

irishbucsfan wrote: »

These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo.

No it would probably kill off the Rabo and also have a detrimental effect on the stand of rugby in the 6 nations.

The Welsh, Scottish and Italians aren't exactly in a financial position were they would be able to sustain the lack of income coming in from the HEC, hell we have already seen one of the Italian teams go bust. Take even more money out of the system and we will see even more of the Rabo clubs going to the wall.

Truthfully I think people are looking at the perceived "imbalance" incorrectly. As if it is the structure of the Rabo that is giving an unfair advantage to Irish sides how did we already have a HEC winning side and a runner up in a different year even before the Celtic League came along? Also if the structure of the Rabo is unfair how come the Irish sides are the only ones who can take advatage of it? Yes you can point of Edinburgh's run to the semi but other then the Irish teams no other celtic team has gotten to a Final since the Celtic League started.

So if the Irish teams do have an advantage it probably doesn't come from the League cause you would have to expect that the welsh clubs would be up there as well. So maybe the advantage lies somewhere else.

IMO our "advantage" comes from the IRFU's decision to structure the provinces the way they did when professionalism came along. Having the provinces under the control of the IRFU and then centrally contracting players gives us a much better club structure then clubs in other countries and this is why we have seen the success we have had.

desertcircus

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noones talking about relegation? Were talking about a merit based qualification process for the Heineken Cup.

Under the proposed system Edinburgh (and Cardiff) wouldnt have qualified for next season. Ulster only by the skin of their teeth.

These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo. I honestly don't see why we shouldn't bring them in in some form

Because they wouldn't improve either. A Pro12 with no second tier and no HC for (for argument's sake) Connacht, Dragons, Edinburgh and whoever succeeds Aironi is a Pro12 where the Scots and Italians either abandon one of their two pro teams or are forced to run on a much reduced budget thanks to the reduced income. Do that and Treviso and Glasgow go from being tough sides capable of causing problems to being gimmes, and Leinster, Munster, Ulster and the Ospreys have four of their games made easier, making the Pro12 less competitive.

As for the claim that eighth in the Premiership makes a team better able for the HC than eleventh in the Pro12, ask Toulouse how they did in Murrayfield.

Fishooks12

No

English sour grapes don't mask the fact that if Irish provinces had to finish in the top 6 or 7 of the rabo that they would qualify comfortably every year

Like this argument might actually hold some weight if Leinster weren't dominating the league

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes. What you've done here is state why it would be hard to make the change, not whether or not the change should be made.

There is plenty if middle ground to find. We could guarantee each nation in the Rabo at least one place awarded to their highest finishing team. That maintains interest from all nations.

As you said the member nations of the ERC agreed the accord in 2007. That was on the back of the threat of one of them pulling out. So to say that one nation can't make a demand is incorrect, just as assuming that the two most powerful nations, in unison, could not unite and force a much-needed change through. There is nothing to prevent the Anglo-French cup being formed in 2014, let's not forget. Then the Rabo teams are screwed.

No, what I've done is point out that the number of teams from each union that take part in the HEC is based on an agreement between the unions.

The actual mechanics of qualification is decided by the home unions individually. The Rabo is a complete red herring. Before the Welsh union created their 'provincial' structure, their clubs such as Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale etc. fought it out for HEC places. Ireland could just as easily have conglomerated division A1 of the AIL and the four provinces to decide which of their three allocated places were taken up by whom.

That it was decided that a celtic league be formed by the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and latterly Italian unions and that the clubs involved in that league would be the recipients of the slots is just another mechanism. It has no less validity as a selection tool then any other contrivance that the individual unions could dream up on their own.

But every time, one or other of the Rabo teams comes out on top of the HEC, there's always whinging from some English or French clubs that the 'system' is unfair.

The first whinge was that lack of relegation meant that the league was therefore uncompetitive and thus made it easy to qualify for the HEC. This is arrant nonsense as an uncompetitive league is hardly going to throw up competitive HEC teams.

Now we've got the 'resting' players for the HEC argument when Rabo teams 'don't have to' play them in the league. Again though, without competitive games, how do Rabo teams manage to get their players up to standard to play the 'more competitive' French and English ones?

But finally, for all those making these noises about the Rabo, which quite frankly is none of their business, what exactly is their home union saying? We don't hear representatives from the RFU or FIR making these noises, it's the clubs and their spokespersons. The motivation there is clear to see, they're not interested in the wider long term prospects for European rugby, they just want more of a share of the spoils.

The only countries that would suffer from any change in representation would be the Scottish and Italians and possibly even the Welsh. All of whom have domestic problems which would only be exacerbated by any exclusion from the competition.

Definitely not in the interests of the sport.

Clearlier

First point to note is that the rules were conceived of before there was a celtic league and the aim was to ensure that there was participation from as many nations as possible. IIRC Romania had a team in the inaugural European cup. Since the inception of the European cup which after the first year was dominated by French and English clubs the Irish, Scottish and Welsh unions agreed to form their own league to ensure regular competition and give the celtic teams a better chance of competing in the European cup. How many times did Munster and to a lesser extent Leinster suffer because of a lack of games? Several years later in an attempt to help Italian rugby they agreed to include 2 Italian teams in the competition.

Would this even be a discussion point if there was no Rabo? The discussion would be more around how to make the celtic teams competitive so that the European competition weren't essentially an Anglo-French affair. It's an easy soft misleading argument that is made by people looking to avoid responsibility or deflect attention. Good teams don't look to make their opponents worse, they look to make themselves better. Rugby is better for having Leinster competing at the top level.

Clermont's time will come - perhaps even next season. They are by a distance the best side not to have won the European cup and I have a lot of time for them. I also don't recall them ever making the complaints about the Rabo that some of the English clubs do. When they win the European cup I'll be standing up and applauding them not talking about how it's unfair that their sugar daddy means that they can afford to buy in two full teams of top class international players.

Tim Robbins

04072511 wrote: »

Obviously it’s great to see Irish teams win Heineken Cups. Munster beating Biarritz to finally break the Anglo-French stranglehold was one of the great moments in Irish sport (particularly because it was brought to us live on RTE), as indeed was Leinster’s maiden win in 2009, when they left behind some of the unfair criticism they had been getting up to that point. Each of the 5 wins in the last 7 years have been great moments, but the increasing dominance of Irish teams has got me thinking, do we really have an unfair advantage in the Heineken Cup? Are Leinster really the best team in Europe, or just the team who rested their players for the Heineken Cup the best?

It doesn’t seem right that the French and English teams have to worry about:

1) Qualification for next season’s Heineken Cup
2) Avoiding relegation

While 11 of the 12 Pro 12 teams can just qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of how good/bad/indifferent they perform domestically. Is it right that our teams can rest players domestically and have ourselves in tip-top shape for big Heineken Cup matches, while the French and English have to take both competitions equally seriously?

My personal opinion would be, that if a European Super League existed right now, Clermont would prove to be the best team in Europe, and not Leinster. Under the Heineken Cup format, Clermont clearly didn’t go into that game the fresher of the two, and that to me indicates a serious flaw in the competition, which in the interests of fairness, needs to be rectified.

If Leinster and Munster didn’t have the luxury to rest players domestically, would they have won as many Heineken Cups during the last 7 years? A couple no doubt, but 5? I’d have my doubts.

This worries me and I think our dominance could come back to haunt us if something isn’t done soon. The French and English could easily get fed up of the competition and boycott. It nearly happened 5 years ago. Who’s to say they wont do it again? In the end of the day, they don’t need the Heineken Cup like we do. They can survive fine off their domestic league, but the Irish teams would be screwed without the French and English involvement in the competition. We rely on them a lot and without the competition they provide us, the provinces would be nothing.

I’d like to see a complete change in qualification:

Top 8 from England
Top 9 from France
Top 1 from Ireland
Top 1 from Wales
Top 1 from Scotland
Top 1 from Italy
Top 3 from the rest of Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy

That to me would be a fairer competition for all, and if they Irish were to then prevail, there could be no doubt about our superiority. Right now, I don’t think there is a true level playing field.

What are people’s thoughts?

ffs - sounds like a bit of sour grapes...

If you want it fair Leinster V Clermont should have being over two legs, home and away like the Champions League.

Indeed, maybe Leinster should be compensated because the Weather here is not as nice as France. Or maybe Biaritz should be compensated because they only had 3,000 fans in a stadium of 80,000 and heck no video links to the home town and while you are at it - maybe it should be called the H cup here as well - just to keep things even.

Maybe we should get rid of Leinster / Munster / Ulster and just send over Cork Con and Mary's.

Maybe all teams should have to produce 2/3's of their starting line up from their academies. I'd love to see the French and English on that one. And the French should to participate in a Lions tour to ensure player games are similar...

The list in endless.

Bring in a TMO to rule if player's release the ball after the tackle.

Fishooks12

04072511 wrote: »

Top 8 from England
Top 9 from France
Top 1 from Ireland
Top 1 from Wales
Top 1 from Scotland
Top 1 from Italy
Top 3 from the rest of Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy

Yes that's a great idea, fill the the most exciting competition in the world with teams from too leagues that are painful to watch

Did you see the Amlin final? Probably the worst match I've ever seen

Your notion that Clermont are a better team than Leinster is ridiculous too. Clermont have a good squad but on paper it's not a patch on Leinsters

Leinster might struggle to get a result in France to them but Clermont in the rds would have the same outcome 8/10 IMO

Not to mention that Leinster play a much more exciting brand of rugby

Tox56

I think the best argument is made by justsomebloke, the Irish teams are the only teams actually making use of this advantage, apart from Edinburgh this year, very rarely does a non-Irish Rabo team make an impact on the HEC, and none anywhere near as consistently. I think that suggests the real advantage lies elsewhere.

Making teams qualify would only impact the non-Irish teams, who don't do that well anyway, nothing would really change.

Teferi

totallegend wrote: »

And let's be honest, really honest. It's not the qualification system that bother the French/English, it's the fact that they haven't been winning the trophy.

Does anyone really think that if the system is changed and the Irish teams continue to win, the French will just go, "c'est la vie" and accept it? Will they f**k.

Right, so once that is established, does anyone think that Leinster would struggle to fill one of the Rabo qualification slots, whatever system is put in place? No, they'd breeze in, as would Munster. So in the context of the last five years, what would have changed? Nothing.

This. A thousand times this.

You wouldn't hear a peep out of either Union if they were winning. It's sour grapes.

/thread

bilston

Why should we change to give the rest a chance? To quote the Trade Unions in the UK it would be a race to the bottom.

When the English and French dominated the early years of the competition did they change to give us more of a chance? Or did we change ourselves to make ourselves better?

We could tinker with the system a bit but giving the English and French more entrants in the HEC isn't the way to do it.

I would remove the guarentee that Scotland and Italy should have two teams in the HEC, guarentee 1 spot for each Pro 12 country and then base the rest on the top 10 places in the league, do that and then for example this season Edinburgh would had to have tried harder in the league. Other than that it's up to the English and French to catch up with us. The English should look at their salary cap and while the opposite appears likely to happen the French should reduce their league from 14 to 12.

Anyway it's all cyclical, Leinster just happen to be very very good at the minute, Ulster look to be on the rise and yet Munster seem to be going the other way. In two or three years time Leinster might be on the slide and someone else could be dominating the competition.

profitius

The unthinkable might have to happen if the rabo league turns to league positions to qualify. A portion of the HEC winnings (just qualifing money) will go to the lower Rabo teams or unions who miss out on qualifaction. This means Irish teams handing over money to non Irish teams.

:eek:

There might be some long term benefits though. If the rabo league is more competitive it becomes more successful, faster and it will attract bigger sponsorship and provide better standard of rugby.

glenkeeran

So many ifs buts and maybes, Leinster and the IRFU are playing and managing to perfection. If there was a super league the it becomes super money like the English premiership when been a realist only 4/5 teams will ever win it. Leinster have a huge squad and they rotate it to perfection and lets just enjoy it and stop looking for something that's not there.:D

thomond2006

It's not Leinster's fault that they can rest players in the Rabo and still hockey teams.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's not Leinster's fault that they can rest players in the Rabo and still hockey teams.

it is. They've developed players to an extent that I'd happily watch a match of Leinster XV(1) vs Leinster XV(2), which would actually be a fairly competitive game.

profitius

What bugs me about all of this is the propaganda behind it. They talk about Irish dominance but its Leinster who are dominating, 1 team. Then comes the excuses. They can win because the rabo is a soft league. Once again they overlook all the other teams and before we were toold that English teams were dominating because their league was so competitive.

The biggest one of all concerns Irish teams "resting players". When English or French teams do it its called squad rotation.

Their real problem is they're overlooking the quality of the rubgy in England and France. The amlin final was a typical French clash of big forwards trying to bash their way up field. Its the same as English rugby the only difference is the French teams are slightly better.

At the end of the day I don't mind English and French teams playing bad rugby. Its better for everyone else.

irishbucsfan

Once again, this has nothing to do with Leinster winning the Heineken Cup. No English person I've met who is looking for a fairer qualification system thinks that it would affect Leinster in any way.

Ulster on the other hand would definitely have been affected. I love Ulster, my dad played up north and its in my blood. But they are not one of the best two teams in Europe. I think most Ulster fans would agree with that.

OK, fair enough its a Cup and anyone can win it, however up until the very end of the Rabo Ulster could not be certain of a place in the Heineken next season (under the proposed rules). They would not have been able to rest big players like they have recently. Remember the shadow teams they sent to Leinster and Connacht? People in Ireland moan about French teams not taking the H Cup seriously when we treat our own league the same way. If performance in the league actually meant something (£££) then we would see less of that. Ulster probably wouldn't even have gotten out of their group this year without being able to rest guys over Christmas.

I completely understand where the English and French are coming from and teams like Edinburgh and Ulster are an example of why this competition is currently not fair for them.

thomond2006

Deleted User wrote: »

it is. They've developed players to an extent that I'd happily watch a match of Leinster XV(1) vs Leinster XV(2), which would actually be a fairly competitive game.

I meant in the sense of other teams moaning about a team like Leinster rotating (ignoring the fact that Leinster have to rotate to avoid player burnout).