why are irish surnames not more common in america?

dubhthach

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

How many people in the USA have an O'x in their surname?
it seems to be very few, Although characters with o'x names do seem tp appear in many hollywood movies.

Well alot of people in Ireland actually dropped the O' in the 19th century. Result of course is that often it was readopted in the early 20th century.

Problem with this is there are several incidences where the wrong "prefix" was appended. For example in west of Ireland there is Ó Carthaigh (O'Carthy) which is generally just "Carthy" these days. However some of these changed their name to MacCarthy (Mac Carthaigh). They are seperate surnames.

Some names generally have completely dropped the Ó/Mac in their english form. For example O'Duffy is very rare compared to Duffy (Ó Dubhthaigh) though not unknown.

dave2pvd

wonton wrote: »

about 2% of the population report scots irish, but in states like georgia where american is the biggest reported ancestry a lot of them are scots irish but since they have been there so long dont identify with it

But they do.

You'd be surprised how aware many Americans are of their ancestry. From what I have witnessed, this knowledge tends to travel down through generations. There is often a greater hunger to know where one is from. Perhaps because everyone came from somewhere else?

tac foley

dubhthach wrote: »

Foley can also be from Mac SEARRAIGH
of course the only way to prove scandinavian origins would be to do a Y-Chromosome test. Generally there quite different proportions of Haplogroups (sub-groups of Y) in Scandinavia then in Ireland.

Next time I have a look at my chromosomes I'll be sure to pay more attention.;)

A little 'Y-shaped' thingy, you say?

tac

cormacocomhrai

dubhthach wrote: »

Well alot of people in Ireland actually dropped the O' in the 19th century. Result of course is that often it was readopted in the early 20th century.

Problem with this is there are several incidences where the wrong "prefix" was appended. For example in west of Ireland there is Ó Carthaigh (O'Carthy) which is generally just "Carthy" these days. However some of these changed their name to MacCarthy (Mac Carthaigh). They are seperate surnames.

Some names generally have completely dropped the Ó/Mac in their english form. For example O'Duffy is very rare compared to Duffy (Ó Dubhthaigh) though not unknown.

You have the surname Connor in Galway who aren't O'Connor at all but actually McConnor by rights.
Another couple of unusual names that are probably Gaelic but mightn't look it Earner=Seery and Stiffe=Ó Roighin.
You might know this Dubhthach. The Ryans of Tipp aren't Ryans at all but Mulryans. That true?

Éamonn an Chnoic/ Ned of the Hill was Éamonn Ó Maolriain and not Ryan as he is often named.
Is mise
Cormac Ó Comhraí

dubhthach

Indeed well one of processes that often occur was the "attraction" of one surname to another. You would end up with an intermediate name in between. A good example is in Mayo:

Ó DOITHE -> O'Diff (Dohie as well) -> Duffy (in reality Ó Dubhthaigh)

The uncommon anglisced name O'Diff got "attracted" to the much more common Duffy (at least one sept of which in Roscommon).

With regards to Ryan there are at least three seperate surnames (taken from Woulfe 1923)

Ó RIAGHAIN, Ó RIAIN—I—O Rian, O'Ryan, Ryan: 'descendant of Riaghan,' or 'Rian'; the name of a Carlow family who were lords of Uí Dróna, the present barony of Idrone, and are now numerous through Leinster; to be distinguished from Ó Maoilriain of Munster and Ó Ruaidhín of Connacht, which are both now incorrectly anglicised O'Ryan or Ryan.

Ó MAOILRIAGHAIN, Ó MAOILRIAIN—I—O Mulrigan, O Mulryan, O Mulrean, Mulryan, Mulroyan, Mulryne, Mulrine, Mulrain, O'Ryan, Ryan; 'descendant of Maolriain' (follower of Riaghan or Rian); the name of a family of Leinster origin who settled in the 13th or 14th century in Uaithne-tire and Uaithne-cliach, now the baronies of Owney, in Co. Tipperary, and Owneybeg, in the east of Co. Limerick, where they became very numerous and powerful. In 1610, William Ryan surrendered to the. king all his landed property and all his rights of or in the barony of Owney O Mulrian, and received them back by letters patent. The family property was, however, lost in the confiscations of the 17th century. There are many very respectable families of the name in Tipperary and Limerick, and the name itself is very common in these counties. It is to be distinguished from Ó Riain, which see.

Ó RUAIDHÍN—I—O Ruyne, O Royn, O Roen, Rouine, Royan, Rowen, (Ruane, O'Ryan, Ryan); 'descendant of Ruaidhín' (diminutive of ruadh, red); the same as Ó Ruadháin, which see, both forms being used by the same family, and equally common in Connacht. Some of the name have been long settled in Leinster.

cormacocomhrai

Ah de Bhuilbh. If I ever go on a cruise I'm going to bring itself, Dineen and Joyce's placenames with me in case I get shipwrecked.

Cork boy 55

How many irish people (% wise) have an O' in their surname?

conor.hogan.2

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

How many irish people (% wise) have an O' in their surname?

Including surnames that in Irish have Ó? The vast majority. I have nothing to back that up, hence me adding the Irish names to be safe.

The Scientician

Remember too that reported ancestry ebbs and flows like fashion. In 1980 far more Americans put down English as their primary ancestry than did so in 2000 or 2010. This could be for a number of reasons, perhaps the genealogy industry's development over time has revealed unknown ancestries to people who assumed they were English transplants to America. I suspect though it just became more fashionable to select the Irish or German part of one's heritage than the English.

goose2005

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

How many irish people (% wise) have an O' in their surname?

check the phone book!

RGM

The Scientician wrote: »

Remember too that reported ancestry ebbs and flows like fashion. In 1980 far more Americans put down English as their primary ancestry than did so in 2000 or 2010. This could be for a number of reasons, perhaps the genealogy industry's development over time has revealed unknown ancestries to people who assumed they were English transplants to America. I suspect though it just became more fashionable to select the Irish or German part of one's heritage than the English.

I think your last line nailed it. I don't know that there's a more popular heritage to have in the United States right now.

And that has it's pros and cons. On one hand, it's great that so many people are embracing their family history. On the other hand, you have a lot of people running around in green, drinking Guinness, and talking up how Irish they are when really they're just Americans playing dress-up. I've always shied away from that. I'm proud of my Irish heritage because I love my grandparents, but I'm an American. Nothing wrong with that.

The title of this thread caught me by surprise though. I grew up just outside Philadelphia and still live in the area, and Irish surnames are everywhere.

cormacocomhrai

RGM wrote: »

I think your last line nailed it. I don't know that there's a more popular heritage to have in the United States right now.

And that has it's pros and cons. On one hand, it's great that so many people are embracing their family history. On the other hand, you have a lot of people running around in green, drinking Guinness, and talking up how Irish they are when really they're just Americans playing dress-up. I've always shied away from that. I'm proud of my Irish heritage because I love my grandparents, but I'm an American. Nothing wrong with that.

The title of this thread caught me by surprise though. I grew up just outside Philadelphia and still live in the area, and Irish surnames are everywhere.

To be fair Irish people delight in stories of the silly American looking for a leprechaun etc. and there are plenty of them but there are areas of London, Boston etc. that are very Irish and it's possible to come from those areas and basically be Irish. There's a tendency among some in Ireland to ignore that or to denigrate it. I've friends who are London-Irish and you couldn't describe them as English. One of them bascially only knew ethnically Irish or West Indian people growing up. When I was in college in Galway a lot of Irish-Americans used to come and spend a year there. I found a few of them a lot more knowledgeable about certain aspects of Irish culture than a lot of the native born people. A few of them had a good knowledge of the North, one of them knew his family tree inside out (to the extent of knowing the villages going back generations) another had a very good knowledge of folklore of his parents' part of southeast Galway. I remember him arguing one time with someone, a local, who was telling him that the Irish language died out in the part of E. Galway a thousand years ago and our boy knowing when the last native speakers died out.
I've heard a great story about Newfoundland/ Nova Scotia from a couple of generations back about a young fella arriving into school and being asked for his home address and giving his home address as a certain townland in Wexford from which his ancestors emigrated four or five generations before. The accent from that part of Wexford is hilarious to anyone who knows the Wexford accent

RGM

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

To be fair Irish people delight in stories of the silly American looking for a leprechaun etc. and there are plenty of them but there are areas of London, Boston etc. that are very Irish and it's possible to come from those areas and basically be Irish. There's a tendency among some in Ireland to ignore that or to denigrate it. I've friends who are London-Irish and you couldn't describe them as English. One of them bascially only knew ethnically Irish or West Indian people growing up. When I was in college in Galway a lot of Irish-Americans used to come and spend a year there. I found a few of them a lot more knowledgeable about certain aspects of Irish culture than a lot of the native born people. A few of them had a good knowledge of the North, one of them knew his family tree inside out (to the extent of knowing the villages going back generations) another had a very good knowledge of folklore of his parents' part of southeast Galway. I remember him arguing one time with someone, a local, who was telling him that the Irish language died out in the part of E. Galway a thousand years ago and our boy knowing when the last native speakers died out.
I've heard a great story about Newfoundland/ Nova Scotia from a couple of generations back about a young fella arriving into school and being asked for his home address and giving his home address as a certain townland in Wexford from which his ancestors emigrated four or five generations before. The accent from that part of Wexford is hilarious to anyone who knows the Wexford accent

Sure, there are plenty of us that really care and put in the extra effort to learn about and appreciate Ireland. But we'll be sitting quietly in the background while the stereotypical tourists plow their way through the country giving us a bad name.

...and ordering "black and tans" in every pub. :rolleyes:

cormacocomhrai

I thought the Black and Tan was a Nike runner

dubhthach

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

I thought the Black and Tan was a Nike runner

Ben&Jerry's Ice-cream as well!

cormacocomhrai

dubhthach wrote: »

Ben&Jerry's Ice-cream as well!

Do they make ice-cream? I thought they were hurlers. Sorry

dubhthach

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

Do they make ice-cream? I thought they were hurlers. Sorry

That took me a minute, until I resorted to google/wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_O'Connor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_O%27Connor

stretchtex

I was raised in the McMullen, McGloin land grant area of south Texas. The Spanish recruited Irish Catholics to settle the area. My ancestors were McMorrows and Dolans from Leitrim. My last name is Gilmore...not sure how prevalent a surname that is in Ireland. Lots of folks in the US believe that if a name doesn't start with an O' or Mc it's not Irish.

dubhthach

stretchtex wrote: »

I was raised in the McMullen, McGloin land grant area of south Texas. The Spanish recruited Irish Catholics to settle the area. My ancestors were McMorrows and Dolans from Leitrim. My last name is Gilmore...not sure how prevalent a surname that is in Ireland. Lots of folks in the US believe that if a name doesn't start with an O' or Mc it's not Irish.

Two seperate possible origins for Gilmore in Ireland

Mac GIOLLA MHUIRE—IV—M'Gilleworry, M'Gilmurry, M'Gilmore, MacIlmurray, MacElmurray, MacKilmurray, MacMurray, Kilmurry, Kilmary, Kilmore, Gilmore, Gilmour, Gilmor, Gilmer, Murry, Murray; 'son of Giolla Mhuire' (servant of Mary); the name of a family in Co. Down who were chiefs of Ui Derca Cein, in the barony of Castlereagh. They are a branch of the family of O'Morna, formerly lords of Lecale, being descended from Giolla Mhuire Ó Morna, lord of Lecale, whose death is recorded in the Annals of the Four Masters at the year 1276. The name is also in use in Scotland, where it is anglicised Morrison (i.e., Muire's son).

Mac GIOLLA MHIR—IV—M'Gilver, M'Gilmer, Gilmer, Gilmor; 'son of Giolla mear' (the merry, lively youth); the name of an old family of the Ui Fiachrach race in Co. Sligo, formerly seated in the townland of Finnure, in the barony of Tireragh.

Lots of Irish names starting with "Gill" -- anglisced from irish word Giolla (Boy, Servant). The word actually found it's way into english (via Scots Gaidhlig) in the form of "Ghillie suit" (What Snipers wear to blend in)

With regards to Leitrim there's a good chance then that your McMorrow ancestors are:

Mac MUIREADHAIGH—IV—M'Murrey, M'Morrye, MacMurry, MacMorry, MacMorray, MacMurray, (MacMorrow), Murry, Murray, (Morrow); 'son of Muireadhach' (belonging to the sea, a mariner; also a lord); an old Breifney surname, still common in the district, but generally anglicised MacMorrow.

(Kingdom of Bréifne included Leitrim and Cavan). Though another possibility is:

Mac MURCHADHA—IV—M'Murroghowe, M'Moroghoe, M'Murphewe, MacMurrough, MacMurrow, Morrowson, Murrough, Morrough, Morrogh, Murrow, Morrow, Murphy; 'son of Murchadh' (sea-warrior, a very common Irish personal name); the name of three distinct families in Ireland, viz.: Mac Murchadha of Leinster, Mac Murchadha of Muinntear Birn in Ulster, and Mac Murchadha of Clann Tomaltaigh in Connacht. The MacMurroughs of Leinster derive their name and descent from Murchadh, the grandfather of Dermot MacMurrough, and were long the most powerful family in Leinster, and one of the most powerful in Ireland. From Domhnall Caomhánach, the son of Dermot MacMurrough, they took the surname of Caomhánach (which see), which is that by which they have been known for centuries. The Ulster family of Mac Murchadha was seated in Tyrone, and at the end of the 16th century was numerous in that county. Murphy appears to be the anglicised form, at least, in many instances; O'Donovan gives it as MacMurray, which I have failed to verify. The Connacht family of this name was seated in Co. Roscommon.

Cork boy 55

stretchtex wrote: »

I was raised in the McMullen, McGloin land grant area of south Texas. The Spanish recruited Irish Catholics to settle the area. My ancestors were McMorrows and Dolans from Leitrim. My last name is Gilmore...not sure how prevalent a surname that is in Ireland. Lots of folks in the US believe that if a name doesn't start with an O' or Mc it's not Irish.

Our current 2-IC is a Gilmore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eamon_Gilmore

cormacocomhrai

Interesting that one branch of the Gilmores originated in Co. Down. The Gilmores, Protestant IRA men from Dublin in the period 1920s-1940s, were originally from Portadown which isn't exactly a million miles away. I wonder were they part of a branch of that family.

pinkmanemily

Dear Cormacocomhrai, Just found your e-mail on the info of Pinkman/ Maguire name change. I have been trying for years to connect both names. I started out with info from a Frank Pinkman, a school teacher from Canada, in the 1980's. He is either living back in England or has passed away. I could send this info to you if you need it. He thought that the group I'am from, Ak-Mo line of Pinkman's, was from the 1812 James Pinkman in Canada, at first I though it was the 1845 James Pinkman that came from Ireland to Ak, but now I'am going back to Frank Pinkman records with his notes of James Pinkman, 1812 Canada. Do you have ANY info that might help me in what direction to go, search. Frank Pinkman was born in Ireland and did attent school in Ireland. He work on the USA Pinkman's for years. I do thank him for all of his hard work, time and sharing. Thank you, Darlena Pinkman Baldwin -email- emily005@centurytel.net

cormacocomhrai

Hi Darlena, check your email

Lynne Connelly

cormacocomhrai wrote: »

dave2pvd wrote: »

Also keep in mind that the figures are somewhat skewed. For whatever reason, so many people in the US claim Irish ancestry, often despite having family names on both parents' sides that are not remotely Irish.

Even in Ireland names that look Anglo are often Gaelic in origin. Mistranslation by state officials etc. or a desire to appear more respectable led to the origins of a lot of names obscuring. This happened all over the country.
In Galway Judge is the same name as Brehony. In Tipperary Greene is the same name as Fahy. You also have names like Canavan became Whitehead, Gormally became Blueman, Maguire became Pinkman, McGowan became Smith. As far as I know a branch of the O'Neills became Johnsons, Ó Dorchaí became D'Arcy, Ó Coileáin became Collins. There are a hundred examples of that kind of thing.
My own name Ó Comhraí has been anglicised as Corry (the version in my family) but also Curry, O'Curry and Corry. A couple of generations in America and people would be told categorically that their ancestry must have been Scottish with the name Corry.
Is mise
Cormac Ó Comhraí

Hi my GGG Grandmother was a Catherine Pinkman. I am interested in the name change from Maguire to Pinkman. Do you have any further info on this?

Thanks.

cormacocomhrai

Lynne Connelly wrote: »

Hi my GGG Grandmother was a Catherine Pinkman. I am interested in the name change from Maguire to Pinkman. Do you have any further info on this?

Thanks.

Hi Lynne,
I came across it in a book written by John A. Pinkman, an English born member of the IRA. The name of the book is "Legion of the Vanguard" other than that I've no other information. Sorry.

Lynne Connelly

Ahh, thanks for getting back so quickly. As luck would have it I've just ordered a second hand copy of that book.

Lynne

gobnaitolunacy

true wrote: »

And Henry Ford, arguably the most famous car-maker in the western world, came from Cork.

His family came from Cork, not Henry himself.

Apparantly, he returned to the family homestead in Ballinascarthy (think sometime around 1912/13 to check out if he could purchase the former family farm, then owned by a couple of batchelor farmers. The local parish priest advised the lads to hold out for more cash, but Henry simply kept his money and returned to the states with the hearthstone of the farmhouse.

gobnaitolunacy

dave2pvd wrote: »

Consider just how many nationalities Anglicized their names. Brown from BROWNE, BRAUN, BROUN, BRUEN, BRUUN, BRUAN, BRUN, BRUENE, BROHN, etc. See here.

A lot of Germanic sounding names were anglicized during WW1 and Sauerkraut was transformed into 'Liberty Cabbage' (shades of that in 'French Fries/Freedom Fries' in our own time.:D)

Interesting to note from the stats that Hispanic names are overtaking the 'English' names.

tac foley

Apropos the Anglicising of Irish names, some friends of ours in WA are called Kingston. Their ancestor had arrived from Ireland in the 1870's and had originally been from Dún Laoghaire - then called Kingstown, I bleeve.

The family name prior to that was totally forgotten, because on his arrival at Ellis Island immigration centre he started from scratch in the New World with a new name.

tac

gobnaitolunacy

Should also have mentioned that a fair percentage of what seem like English surnames, may in fact be carried by African-Americans.