Some thoughts on judging

SDTimeout

Dermighty wrote: »

I've no experience judging.

I think one of the things that should be covered in a refs course would be to give people a good general knowledge of the martial arts they'll be watching. I know that a bjj fighter is probably going to know waaaaay more about bjj than the ref, however so many times (in UFC in particular) you see refs telling guys to work when they are very clearly working, I'm not sure what the refs expect from the fighters as the refs all come from different backgrounds but you can tell who has some knowledge of certain sports and who doesn't.

Just a thought.

Peter Lavery is a purple belt
David Jones is a brown belt

and I believe Karl Roche is getting into reffing too, he's a brown belt.

I agree on your point about the UFC however, but very rarely do you see a guy about to advance on the ground and the ref stands them up.

roro1neil0

pretty amazing

it seems everyone in this thread who has worked as a judge, has actually not been told how to/done a course or anything. it's just up to them to come up with a system, their systems seem quite similar but only through luck.

do the lads in the cage fighting even know themselves how the fight will be judged?

i guess dana white is right, never leave it in the hands of the judges

Barry.Oglesby

roro1neil0 wrote: »

pretty amazing

it seems everyone in this thread who has worked as a judge, has actually not been told how to/done a course or anything. it's just up to them to come up with a system, their systems seem quite similar but only through luck.

do the lads in the cage fighting even know themselves how the fight will be judged?

i guess dana white is right, never leave it in the hands of the judges

Yeah it's just awful isn't it? these experienced fighters, coaches, judges and referees should have left it to the good people of the Internet to come up with a system.

cowzerp

roro1neil0 wrote: »

pretty amazing

it seems everyone in this thread who has worked as a judge, has actually not been told how to/done a course or anything. it's just up to them to come up with a system, their systems seem quite similar but only through luck.

do the lads in the cage fighting even know themselves how the fight will be judged?

i guess dana white is right, never leave it in the hands of the judges

Even in the UFC you get the occasional judging errors, that's human nature.

Overall the judges who do most shows get it spot on most the time, there is judging criteria and all judges no this, but at the end of the day a fight and what scores is down to the individual judges interpretation wheter we do a course or not.

roro1neil0

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Yeah it's just awful isn't it? these experienced fighters, coaches, judges and referees should have left it to the good people of the Internet to come up with a system.

Ah now, was that really necessary? That strawman would put The Wicker man to shame, even Nicolas Cage's.

I said it was surprising that there, as far as I can see and as far as recorded on this thread, has never been even in informal agreement on how to score a fight. I'm sure all these 'experienced' people that are judging are all legitimate but I still think it's quite shocking that no one has said sure, just follow the ufc 10 point scoring system.

cowzerp wrote: »

Even in the UFC you get the occasional judging errors, that's human nature.

More than occasional. The only reason why the UFC judging scandal hasn't been exposed is because more often than not, the fights do not go to decision and if they do, they usually have an obvious winner. Otherwise it's pure pot luck.

Overall the judges who do most shows get it spot on most the time, there is judging criteria and all judges no this, but at the end of the day a fight and what scores is down to the individual judges interpretation wheter we do a course or not.

They get it spot on because they aren't often called on to give a decision, if they do, the fight is usually one sided. In the case of a close fight, these 'judges' only have to pick from a two horse race so if they flip a coin they'll get it right half the time.

Like look how subjective and variable artistic gymnastics is. Yet they a very comprehensive scoring and judging system. Of course, at the end of the day you will have observer error, bias and subjectivity but you're only asking for trouble to let everyone have free reign on interpretation.

Mellor

roro1neil0 wrote: »

I said it was surprising that there, as far as I can see and as far as recorded on this thread, has never been even in informal agreement on how to score a fight. I'm sure all these 'experienced' people that are judging are all legitimate but I still think it's quite shocking that no one has said sure, just follow the ufc 10 point scoring system.

Every fight I've seen is scored the 10 point must system, the one used in the UFC, other big promotions and also boxing. What gave you the idea that it wasn't that way, or that nobody said to follow that?

And I'm sure that every judge, while they may have opinions, still follows the same criteria set out in the unified rules.

effective striking, effective grappling, control of the ring/fighting area, effective aggressiveness and defense.

cowzerp

roro1neil0 wrote: »

They get it spot on because they aren't often called on to give a decision, if they do, the fight is usually one sided. In the case of a close fight, these 'judges' only have to pick from a two horse race so if they flip a coin they'll get it right half the time.

I judge all the time and if a fight goes to decision then it is rarely 1 sided, 1 sided fights usually end quick-yes sometimes it's clear who won but if it is not clear then that's where experienced judges come in, plus I have no problem scoring a razor tight round 10-10

The way I see it if 1 doesn't score more scoring moves then it's most likely a draw, luckily it isn't that common.

Most the regular judges no exactly what does and what does not score.

SBG Ireland

i've not read anything on this since my last post but i'd recommend ending this thread now. the facebook group of coaches is the place for any serious discussion. boards is better suited for armchair guys telling GSP how he should fight or discussing which styles work better in the street

p to the e

SBG Ireland wrote: »

i've not read anything on this since my last post but i'd recommend ending this thread now. the facebook group of coaches is the place for any serious discussion. boards is better suited for armchair guys telling GSP how he should fight or discussing which styles work better in the street

Obnoxious much?

MrStuffins

Was really enjoying reading this thread, great topic and interesting points of view..


... that was until the OP decided for some reason, having actually started the thread on this board and engaged in discussion on the topic, decided it would be a good idea to deride the the entire forum and it's posters.

Pretty pathetic tbh. I have no idea why anyone would do this, whether it be John Kavanagh or Joe Bloggs; especially after starting the discussion.

(Unless myself and JK share completely different senses of humour. Although I've seen posts like these from him before so I doubt it. But if theres a joke im not getting.......)

SBG Ireland

well i started it here because there was no where else to start it. then i had the idea of setting up a facebook group for people who actually coach, run gyms, have experience, stand behind there name. on the facebook group its actually working very well, with talk of a course being put together.
the problem here, mr.stuffins, is that its distracting having everyone put in their 2cents. not everybody opinions are equal on this. somebody coaching full time for 5-10yrs knows bit more about it than somebody training ufc a few weeks.

now im off to be obnoxious much lol

MrStuffins

SBG Ireland wrote: »

well i started it here because there was no where else to start it. then i had the idea of setting up a facebook group for people who actually coach, run gyms, have experience, stand behind there name. on the facebook group its actually working very well, with talk of a course being put together.
the problem here, mr.stuffins, is that its distracting having everyone put in their 2cents. not everybody opinions are equal on this. somebody coaching full time for 5-10yrs knows bit more about it than somebody training ufc a few weeks.

now im off to be obnoxious much lol

That may be true. But it doesn't mean you have to take the "I'm awesome and know more than you, therefore I will, nay, MUST, belittle those who know less than me and like to discuss the sport they enjoy watching and/or partaking in. The majority of regular posters here are cool people, interested in MMA at all levels, some practice, some don't bit support the scene at a local level. Some just watch the odd fight on tv.

While what you have done and continue to do in and for the sport is something to be admired (an understatement here), your attitude to everyone else, in this instance, is nothing more than childish.

Just my (off topic) 2c, now im off to talk about the upcoming Superfight between Fedor & Couture.... thats still happening right? :pac:

SBG Ireland

MrStuffins wrote: »

Some just watch the odd fight on tv.

sorta my point. if you're posting under a false name i've no idea who you are or what experience you have so dont know how much weight to attach to your point of view. on the facebook group this is not a problem

MrStuffins wrote: »

your attitude to everyone else, in this instance, is nothing more than childish.

:eek: i resemble that remark!

MrStuffins wrote: »

"I'm awesome and know more than you, therefore I will, nay, MUST, belittle those who know less than me and like to discuss the sport they enjoy watching and/or partaking in.

was not saying i was more awesome than everyone, although not denying that truth either. merely pointing out the difficulty in separating the wheat from the chaff so to speak when you dont know who is replying.

my apologies if my attempt at humor was lost on some

MrStuffins

SBG Ireland wrote: »

sorta my point. if you're posting under a false name i've no idea who you are or what experience you have so dont know how much weight to attach to your point of view. on the facebook group this is not a problem

Well here we have it. i didn't give my opinion on judging. I gave my opinion on you being a tad elitist. I don't need to be a Black Belt in Japanese Tae Kwon Jiu Fitsu for that.

I said SOME people just watch the odd fight. But you made a sweeping statement about the whole forum and think this is justified because SOME people watch the odd fight.

As I said, the vast majority of REGULAR posters here know their stuff, regardless of their belt ranking in Two Wong Foo!

:eek: i resemble that remark!

That may be the case but, IMO, it's true. There's just no need for it frankly.

was not saying i was more awesome than everyone, although not denying that truth either. merely pointing out the difficulty in separating the wheat from the chaff so to speak when you dont know who is replying.

This has nothing to do with your comment of:

SBG Ireland wrote: »

boards is better suited for armchair guys telling GSP how he should fight or discussing which styles work better in the street

my apologies if my attempt at humor was lost on some

Well, as I said, unless we don't share a similar sense of humour we're having a mix up here. But judging on what you've been saying since, i'm not convinced it was a joke.

I've no interest in speaking further on the matter. Just saying, posts like the one above making sweeping statements about the users of the forum, one which many people enjoy visiting and engaging in, only reflect badly on you, not the forum and it's users!

SBG Ireland

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well here we have it. i didn't give my opinion on judging. I gave my opinion on you being a tad elitist.

you missed my point. i was not saying YOU, maybe i should have said 'if one does not know who etc'

MrStuffins wrote: »

I said SOME people just watch the odd fight. But you made a sweeping statement about the whole forum and think this is justified because SOME people watch the odd fight.

well i said the ones that have experience are now on the facebook group. its their opinion i was looking for, not someone that watches the odd fight.

MrStuffins wrote: »

As I said, the vast majority of REGULAR posters here know their stuff, regardless of their belt ranking in Two Wong Foo

lol, yeah

MrStuffins wrote: »

But judging on what you've been saying since, i'm not convinced it was a joke.

I've no interest in speaking further on the matter. Just saying, posts like the one above making sweeping statements about the users of the forum, one which many people enjoy visiting and engaging in, only reflect badly on you, not the forum and it's users!

i cannot express how little i care about what a few anonymous people posting on a forum think of me.

darced

This post has been deleted.

SBG Ireland

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

ur right, dunno what i was thinking.

darced

This post has been deleted.

cowzerp

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

O'k i'll jump in here as an opposing coach to John, yes he is a BJJ coach and a very good 1 at that but he has trained very good MMA fighters too and is an MMA coach and a BJJ coach.

SBG Ireland

cowzerp wrote: »

darced wrote: »

Maybe that you were some kind of mma god,when in reality you are a bjj coach?:)

O'k i'll jump in here as an opposing coach to John, yes he is a BJJ coach and a very good 1 at that but he has trained very good MMA fighters too and is an MMA coach and a BJJ coach.

i also work with orphaned children at the weekends

theboxingclinic

That's a pretty ridiculous comment in fairness.

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe that you were some kind of mma god,when in reality you are a bjj coach?:)[/Quote]

p to the e

Homer: Why won't those stupid idiots let me into their crappy club for jerks?

Jason McCabe

Caviar and champagne tonight on the coaches facebook page

Logical Fallacy

This thread went all weird.

It's been quite nice to see some folks who have judging experience talking about what they look for and how they feel about certain circumstances in the course of a fight.

Very illuminating.

roro1neil0

If the thread starter would prefer to use facebook to discuss judging with other judges that's perfectly reasonable.

I think this was a good thread and it was interesting to hear, from the horse's mouth, how judging is conducted in Ireland.

But if they didn't want to hear unsolicited opinions why put the post here first? Rhetorical question.

Barry.Oglesby

Rhetorical eh?

Stephen_King

roro1neil0 wrote: »

But if they didn't want to hear unsolicited opinions why put the post here first? Rhetorical question.

SBG Ireland wrote: »

well i started it here because there was no where else to start it.

:pac: