Some thoughts on judging

SBG Ireland

true, it is a bit subjective and does require an educated eye.
in the same weigh i've seen guys hit hard, wobbled and as the guy ran into finish them they were KO'd.

Gorey_R

SBG Ireland wrote: »

true, it is a bit subjective and does require an educated eye.
in the same weigh i've seen guys hit hard, wobbled and as the guy ran into finish them they were KO'd.

Yep, hard to argue with that! Dead right.

Mellor

Gorey_R wrote: »

Also, opposite to what Barry said i think all judges decisions should be public and while i agree they shouldn't be discussing their decisions after fights with the general public i don't think it should be a secret. I think judges should be answerable too. If i judge a fight and a someone disagrees with my decision i feel there should be a medium for him to go through to get clarification on why i judged a fight in whatever way i did.

There shoudl definitely be made public, is that we can see who scored it for who, and by how much, which rounds etc. Similar to score cards being posted onlien for big events. Transparancy is important here.
But I don't think we should have a medium to question decisions. It would start off with seeking clarification and then quickly proceed to call-in out people and accusations.

If a Judge wants to example his scoring for a high profile or controversial fight, then thats his choice. But he should have to anywers to everyone with an interent connection

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

According to the commissions in the USA, a near submission attempt (ie. one that the opponent has to rigorously defend such as an extended arm, triangle held for a long period of time etc.) should be scored in the same manner as a knockdown. So if one guy connects with a right hand and knocks the opponent to the floor, follows him down but the guy gets his back and almost chokes him, then that round is technically even.

That sounds fair to me.
A fully locked in choke where the guy hangs on until the bell deserves to be scored for the aggresor. Chalking that down to simply an attempt/failed sub is far too harsh. How close is close is enough to score is always going to be subjective

John Ferguson

Mellor wrote: »

There shoudl definitely be made public, is that we can see who scored it for who, and by how much.

Transparancy is important

Totally agree with these points, we had a well documented judging issue back at CC5 and have made all score cards available since. It serves two purposes, firstly it keeps everything transparent and secondly it allows us to see if one judge is more favourable to any particular side or seems to get it totally different from the other judges (we then get the guys together to revisit the scoring criteria)

cowzerp

John Ferguson wrote: »

Totally agree with these points, we had a well documented judging issue back at CC5 and have made all score cards available since. It serves two purposes, firstly it keeps everything transparent and secondly it allows us to see if one judge is more favourable to any particular side or seems to get it totally different from the other judges (we then get the guys together to revisit the scoring criteria)

If judges are going to get put in a position to be criticised by internet warriors then their pay should reflect that-most get peanuts in fairness and do it for the sport and should not get put in a position to be abused by random internet folk.

I'm all for putting up the scores but less so for what judges done what, no problem coaches of the fighters been aware as they are the 1's who matter.

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

If judges are going to get put in a position to be criticised by internet warriors then their pay should reflect that-most get peanuts in fairness and do it for the sport and should not get put in a position to be abused by random internet folk.

I'm all for putting up the scores but less so for what judges done what, no problem coaches of the fighters been aware as they are the 1's who matter.

I can't comment on what others pay officials (refs and judges) but we pay a pretty decent rate.

It's slightly different in the CC case as our fights are televised and the judging made public in that way too. Regardless of how, I am of the opinion that all scorecards should be made public.

cowzerp

John Ferguson wrote: »

I can't comment on what others pay officials (refs and judges) but we pay a pretty decent rate.

Fair enough John.

John Ferguson wrote: »

It's slightly different in the CC case as our fights are televised and the judging made public in that way too. Regardless of how, I am of the opinion that all scorecards should be made public.

I think we need to start separating the shows that aim to be professional and the shows that are clearly Amateur, The Rumble for example is an Amateur show and does not claim anything else and if it had ambitions to be bigger would need to move to a bigger venue , Judges basically get expenses, should cover petrol and lunch but again it's totally different to CC.

I won't be making public judges scores as judges have enough pressure without answering to biased fans that may totally know nothing of MMA scoring.

troygracie

i have judged on cc and other shows and when judging i do make notes and give marks to each fighter on striking-takedowns-subs etc i make these notes on the back of the score card

Pccb

troygracie wrote: »

i have judged on cc and other shows and when judging i do make notes and give marks to each fighter on striking-takedowns-subs etc i make these notes on the back of the score card

How did u score the joe mc colgan vs levi kehoe 30-27 to levi when both judges gave it 29-28 to joe. U must b lookin cecil peoples job lol
Cecil cassidy lol

themandan6611

Pccb wrote: »

How did u score the joe mc colgan vs levi kehoe 30-27 to levi when both judges gave it 29-28 to joe. U must b lookin cecil peoples job lol
Cecil cassidy lol

maybe, just maybe his perception of the score and who won differed when compared against the other judges. Thats why things like boards exists, opinions differ

John Ferguson

themandan6611 wrote: »

maybe, just maybe his perception of the score and who won differed when compared against the other judges. Thats why things like boards exists, opinions differ

But should perceptions and opinions differ vastly if judges are working on the same scoring criteria during the same fight? Not getting at Cecil oops I mean Conor btw lol. But on a serious note I see it in MMA and boxing alot where one judge scores a bout the polar opposite to the other two and I always think how can they see it so differently?

Arawn

Pccb wrote: »

How did u score the joe mc colgan vs levi kehoe 30-27 to levi when both judges gave it 29-28 to joe. b lookin cecil peoples job lol
Cecil cassidy lol

This thread has shown how some people can score differently to others seriously though have a bit more class than laughing at someone in a public forum when mma is still a minority sport in Ireland.This is why the card results shouldn't be made public tbh, only the ref and promoter should see the results with maybe both gym owners if it's a proper dispute.

Mellor

John Ferguson wrote: »

But on a serious note I see it in MMA and boxing alot where one judge scores a bout the polar opposite to the other two and I always think how can they see it so differently?

Because rounds are isolated in terms of scoring.
Obviously everyone is aware of this. But based on comments on here after big events a lot of people don't apply it too well in a lot of situations. And they compare the scores as a assessment of how clsoe a fight was, which it isn't really.

Take the scoring above as example, two judges scores it 29-28 and the other 27-30
So they all agreed on one round and gave it to fighter B.
what if the other two rounds were very close, and a case could be made either way. If two go with fighter A and the other with B we get the result above.
The scores might look like the judges were watching two different fights, but when you think about it, it can happen pretty easily.

Obviously i know you are aware of the scoring John, i'm just pointing this for dicussion really. And highlight that clsoe fioghts can produce hugely different scores

5weenytodd

I also have a system i use to judge and score fights. Ive used it since the first time i judged and havnt really had any problems with it yet.
I score the rounds on three ranges S,C,G (Striking, Clinch work, Grappling)
I use the dash idea that JK spoke of earlier in these three ranges and add them up at the end of the round and then the one with the most scores 10 the least scores 9. Its very simple and altho not fullproof it does suffice for the level of MMA that i have officiated. If anyone is interested i will explain in detail how it works if you want.
I do intend to get back into officiating in Ireland by the end of this year when i return and i would have no problem making my score cards public for anyone who wants to see them.
Keyboard warriors on this little forum dont bother me and at the end of the day by the time any scores would be made public the fights over so there aint much you can do about it. Being a Ref or Judge has criticism as a perk. Ive said it before that we are very lucky with the standard to officials we have at home. However with the amount of "shows" now i do worry about the pool of officials being overworked. Having one ref do an entire show of 15+ fights at different rules sets is not on. When i reffed on any show (apart from one) i was always with at least one other Ref. Thats the way it should be.

Marty(lost my old sign in details):cool:

John Ferguson

Arawn wrote: »

This thread has shown how some people can score differently to others seriously though have a bit more class than laughing at someone in a public forum when mma is still a minority sport in Ireland.This is why the card results shouldn't be made public tbh, only the ref and promoter should see the results with maybe both gym owners if it's a proper dispute.

I think that the way we can talk about it in a light hearted manner is actually a good thing tbh. Because we are still a very small community it's important to discuss these things between ourselves and a little humour keeps things sensible.

My opinion will always remain that score cards should be made public for the sake of transparancy.

John Ferguson

Mellor wrote: »

Obviously i know you are aware of the scoring John, i'm just pointing this for dicussion really. And highlight that clsoe fioghts can produce hugely different scores

To be fair scoring is something that is still quite alien to me as I have no MMA background, but after 13 of my own events and spectating at loads of others I am getting more of an idea about it (I think ).

cowzerp

Mellor wrote: »

Because rounds are isolated in terms of scoring.
Obviously everyone is aware of this. But based on comments on here after big events a lot of people don't apply it too well in a lot of situations. And they compare the scores as a assessment of how clsoe a fight was, which it isn't really.

Fights can be scored 10-10 so if the rounds are that close then you should not flip a coin, I was not at the fight that was talked about so unsure if the rounds differeing where close or not, In most cases the Score cards should be the same/similar, opposite is usually not good and often points to biased judging either by style or worse by club.

I think overall the judging is good

Last week at the jr show my kid kept it standing for the full fight and clearly dominated the fight yet a judge gave it to the opponent, lucky the other 2 judges where on the ball with all rounds going the right way

Same happened me years ago when a 3x5 round stand up fight went against me that i had dominated, when even the locals knew I'd won and showed their displeasure

Some judges are just useless, biased or just don't have a clue

In cases like this judges need to be looked at and just not asked to do it again as they're not competent for MMA judging clearly. .

p to the e

I've found in the UFC the judges are often reluctant to give a round a draw even when the round is extremely difficult to score. The last Cage Contender I was at, I remember seeing that several rounds of various fights were marked draws which I thought was unusual but also realising that when I was watching it that it was probably the best way to score that round.

MMAIRELANDFAN

5weenytodd wrote: »

I score the rounds on three ranges S,C,G (Striking, Clinch work, Grappling)
I use the dash idea that JK spoke of earlier in these three ranges and add them up at the end of the round and then the one with the most scores 10 the least scores 9. Its very simple and altho not fullproof it does suffice for the level of MMA that i have officiated. If anyone is interested i will explain in detail how it works if you want.

So all ticks are even

I'm interested as the rest seem to indicate that it's just a guideline for them then to make a decision

You add your's and that is it

Surely all ticks are not equal

5weenytodd

Ok ill give it a go.

So i have a note pad and on this pad i draw two grided boxes.
One on for fighter one and one for fighter two.
Along the top the letters S,C,G in a colum each and down the side round 1,2,3 in a row each.
1; S or Striking for me, includes cage control, aggression and of course contact. Contact is both "clean" and "messy".
2; C or Clinch for me, includes closing the distance, clinch work, dirty boxing and takedowns. Takedowns are again "clean" and "messy".
3; G or Grappling for me , includes control, passes, transitions and submission attempts/escapes.

Every time a fighter does something significant in my opinion in one of these ranges they get a "dash" in the corresponding round box.
However when it comes to what in my opinion are dominant actions ie "clean" striking or takedowns i will award a dash and a cross. Essentially two dashes but i record it as a cross to remind me it was "Clean".

Examples of "Clean" movements are:
In the striking range i would consider a striking combination that lands cleanly without reataliation resulting in a stun or knockdown.
In the clinch range its a flowing double leg takedown. Basically taking the fighter from one position to another with complete control.
ect....

At the end of each round i add up the dashes and if appropriate the crosses and use these numbers to declare who gets a ten and who gets a nine.

Like i said this isnt by any way full proof and depents alot on my opinion.
However ive been involved in MMA for some time and train in a club 3 times a week so i feel that i have a general understanding of the way the game flows.

Barry.Oglesby

There should basically be no such thing as a tied round. If you give a round as a 10-10 then you haven't been looking hard enough! It shouldn't happen as often as it does.

As for scores that look bad, I remember a groan a while back when some scores were being read out when I was judging. I had gone the other way 28-29 when the others had gone 30-27. When we spoke afterwards though, they had given each round very closely and it was a tight fight. When you add them up it looks much worse.

Rob01

cowzerp wrote: »

Fights can be scored 10-10 so if the rounds are that close then you should not flip a coin

I thought a round has to be scored 10 points for the winner and 9 or less for the opponent ???

I'm basing this from the "rules of the octagon" before any UFC event!

El Guapo!

Rob01 wrote: »

cowzerp wrote: »

Fights can be scored 10-10 so if the rounds are that close then you should not flip a coin

I thought a round has to be scored 10 points for the winner and 9 or less for the opponent ???

I'm basing this from the "rules of the octagon" before any UFC event!

That's only if there is a clear winner. It's within the rules though that a round can be scored a 10-10 draw if the judge sees fit. The problem is many judges are afraid to score a draw and so they always try to pick a winner even if it's too close to tell.

Mellor

cowzerp wrote: »

Fights can be scored 10-10 so if the rounds are that close then you should not flip a coin, I was not at the fight that was talked about so unsure if the rounds differeing where close or not, In most cases the Score cards should be the same/similar, opposite is usually not good and often points to biased judging either by style or worse by club.

I'm aware that 10-10 is available. And imo its not used often enough. Using it mroe removes a lot of the high variance in close fights, it also introduces a lot of draws. I'd also liek to see more 10-8 rounds and clearer definiton of what qualifes 10-8 (eg like knockdowns in boxing).

But I don't think that changes my point. I wasn't suggesting that judges flip a coin just that they gave a slightly different weighting to evetns of the round and score it different. It could be notiving somethign others missed, or even giving more credit to some shots. Judges disagree on dingle rounds the whole time, doesn't mean they are biased. My point was its not too difficult for that to happen twice in a fight and you'll have a "opposite" decision.

Obviously, if it repeated happen in different fights there bias, eg Cecil Peeples.

Rob01 wrote: »

I thought a round has to be scored 10 points for the winner and 9 or less for the opponent ???

I'm basing this from the "rules of the octagon" before any UFC event!

Nope, that's just the general way its explained for laypeople.
They are occasionally scored 10-10. Recently, Demetrious Johnson v Ian McCall was a draw because one judge scored it 10-10 (the other gave a1 round atMcCall 10-8)

UFC rulebook wrote:

B.The 10-Point Must System will be the standard system of scoring a bout. Under the 10-Point Must Scoring System, 10 points must be awarded to the winner of the round and 9 points or less must be awarded to the loser, except for a rare even round, which is scored (10-10).

But its very very rare.
There have been 3 rounds scored 10-10 in the UFC so far this year. That's out of the 170 rounds that went to the judges over the first last 10 UFC events. So that's 3 out of 510 scores as each round receives one from each Judge.

Steven Duffus

This a great post and very informative for a young guy hoping to maybe one day judge some MMA contests.

My MMA judging level is still at the infancy but I have 2-3 years experience of judging amateur boxing contests.

The three main criteria points which is adopted by most judges in boxing are; Effective Aggression, Ring Generalship & Aggression.

I feel this points are very versatile in regards to the transfer of judging between boxing & MMA and can be related very quickly to the aforementioned STMs & the other methods used by the other judges on this post.

The problem is always going to be the same with any of the officiating in the UK & Ireland, this is where the underlying need for a governing body exists. Yes there is various referee's running courses & of course shadowing is probably the best way to learn for any aspiring MMA official today, but until there is a set test for judges like there is in boxing we will always run the risk of having problematic scoring.

cowzerp

Boxing judging is rubbish, and getting qualified to do it is easy aswell.

Steven Duffus

cowzerp wrote: »

Boxing judging is rubbish, and getting qualified to do it is easy aswell.

Boxing judging is always perceived as being rubbish through the corruptness of the governing bodies that sanction title fights.

Getting qualified to do it maybe is relatively easy, but I thought the point of this post was to highlight some grey areas over judging & helping with a better system to relate to when giving your scores.

The only plus I would say that boxing judging has in favor of MMA judging is that their is a training process you have to go through; attending a number of lectures, a written examination, a practical test (where you will usually have to shadow a judge for 10 bouts).

Whereas in MMA (outside the States) the judging process is as simple as saying that you can judge contests, which again highlights the need for governing bodies in the UK & Ireland.

Ireland seems to have a more switched on approach to professional MMA & I think that setting up a course for judges would be easily administered as long as it was acknowledged by the bigger promotions in the country.

cowzerp

You don't need a governing body to do that, you just need the promotions to agree to run a course and use the people who took part in the course.

The boxing governing body is great and had been their for donkeys years, it starts from a world body and then there is European and then national and provincial, there is no world governing body in Mma so realistically a body would have no 1 to answer to or to get criteria from.

A governing body set up in Ireland would tear the scene apart and we'd end up with splits and things like the north using c class rules while we use new amateur etc

To put it blunt it would not work as the scene is too established and their is too many chiefs who would want to run the show

Steven Duffus wrote: »

Boxing judging is always perceived as being rubbish through the corruptness of the governing bodies that sanction title fights.

Getting qualified to do it maybe is relatively easy, but I thought the point of this post was to highlight some grey areas over judging & helping with a better system to relate to when giving your scores.

The only plus I would say that boxing judging has in favor of MMA judging is that their is a training process you have to go through; attending a number of lectures, a written examination, a practical test (where you will usually have to shadow a judge for 10 bouts).

Whereas in MMA (outside the States) the judging process is as simple as saying that you can judge contests, which again highlights the need for governing bodies in the UK & Ireland.

Ireland seems to have a more switched on approach to professional MMA & I think that setting up a course for judges would be easily administered as long as it was acknowledged by the bigger promotions in the country.

cowzerp

Steven Duffus wrote: »

Getting qualified to do it maybe is relatively easy, but I thought the point of this post was to highlight some grey areas over judging & helping with a better system to relate to when giving your scores..

Steven it only highlighted that courses would be a good thing-these have been discussed before and I'm sure will happen, the scoring system is well known in Mma but there is 3 ranges to score a fight so to the non judge it can be unclear who won, most fans score it simply by who got more bust up, judges in most cases don't, anyway boxing judging in amateur boxing is pathetic and in pro it is too and often suspect to say the least and both have governing bodies.

Dermighty

I've no experience judging.

I think one of the things that should be covered in a refs course would be to give people a good general knowledge of the martial arts they'll be watching. I know that a bjj fighter is probably going to know waaaaay more about bjj than the ref, however so many times (in UFC in particular) you see refs telling guys to work when they are very clearly working, I'm not sure what the refs expect from the fighters as the refs all come from different backgrounds but you can tell who has some knowledge of certain sports and who doesn't.

Just a thought.