Graduate Developer Salaries 2012 Edition

conor.hogan.2

fergalr wrote: »

The figure quoted here - 25k - surprised me because of its absolute size, as well as the attitude accompanying it. Maybe I'm out of touch, or seeing a biased sample, but some of the better grads I know were starting on 30k+ now, and higher than that in the past.

But software developers in general tend to be bad at negotiation, so I don't know if I'm seeing a strange sample.

The pay scales are publicly available, eg:
http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf

I think thats in line with the figure I gave.

I know, 25k seems to be passed around as a general average for all IT related jobs. Whereas a developer average is more around 30k imo as I said.

Yes, a starting teacher can go from less than 30k up to around 34 or so (possibly higher) depending on a variety of factors but I think 32k is a fair average to say. Plus the wage increases are slow and steady when compared to in IT.

Giblet

fergalr wrote: »

Giblet, I would be interested in a more detailed explanation of what you mean by "we've play the % better anyway, even if we lose that 1 person".

The value that any reasonable company should get from a developer (especially after a couple of years experience) is a large multiple of that developer's salary.
Its hard to pick a figure, but you'd assume at least a multiple of 3 - to pay for the overheads of managing the developer, arranging the contracts, paying the owners of the business / profit, expenses etc.

This delta is usually fairly obvious, if the developer is being contracted out. But it should also be the case - or even more so - if the developer is doing internal product development, or business support, etc.

Basically, the developer is in a leveraged position. If Dev_A is 20% better than Dev_B, you would hope Dev_A should generate 60% more of a return - at least.


So, given that developers are in a leveraged position, how much more is it worth paying to get a better grad, who will be that good developer in 2 years time?

I guess it depends on what the delta between the best developers, and the normal developers, is.

And also on how well that delta can be determined, based on the signals available when interviewing a grad.
After all, if a company can't tell a good dev from a bad one, then it makes sense that they would not be willing to pay a premium to get a better selection.

I would just point out, that its a quite commonly held belief - that seems to have some empirical backing - that the best devs are really a lot more than 20% more productive than the average. I'd believe this too, based on my experience.

How well can a company judge who will be the best and the worst? Well, that depends on the competency of the hiring process in the company.
I would suggest that if the people doing the hiring are competent, they should be able to make a pretty good stab at selecting the more talented incoming grads, at telling the people who are interested in their stuff, from those who are asleep at the wheel. (And I don't mean by looking at degree scores).


3K of extra salary, to get the better grads, should really be a small business expense, well worth spending to get more talent.
Not to mention the benefits of retaining employees, better morale, etc.


So I don't really understand your comments at all, about winning on the percentages?

Honestly, this does not show a very enlightened attitude to hiring.

Shouldn't you be trying to learn something from every hire?

Actually, it's never about playing a game of %, it's a negotiation, and usually we're better at negotiating that the grad, and we can offer other things besides money. That's the % we play with. No-one is out to undercut a grad it's just the way it's played. Sure, some grads don't come into their own straight away anyway, so we risk losing people who've had bad interviews too. We do pay over 25k is some cases, but that's up to the grad to show they are worth it and to negotiate it. We won't offer more, but what you see happen is we offer x, and the grad accepts x because they aren't experience in asking for y, and this is the case most of the time. Bear in mind, I'm taking about the negotiating of salary. If a grad came in knowing a lot about the things we do, they could be offered much more, but we don't see many of them (and no-one is aware of our salary offering before they interview).

And from all I've learned about hiring and working with grads, is that you have more of them talking the talk, but very rarely walking the walk, and it;s rare enough to not consider, (we'd notice anyway).After a few years, developers who are worth more will get the money. What it boils down to in simple language. We aren't losing the graduates because they wouldn't accept 25k, we're getting the graduates we want at 25k, and the ones we didn't were because they didn't interview well enough. The sky is the limit for these guys after that. (Ok, not sky, but decent enough :P)

fergalr

Giblet wrote: »

Actually, it's never about playing a game of %, it's a negotiation, and usually we're better at negotiating that the grad, and we can offer other things besides money. That's the % we play with. No-one is out to undercut a grad it's just the way it's played. Sure, some grads don't come into their own straight away anyway, so we risk losing people who've had bad interviews too. We do pay over 25k is some cases, but that's up to the grad to show they are worth it and to negotiate it. We won't offer more, but what you see happen is we offer x, and the grad accepts x because they aren't experience in asking for y, and this is the case most of the time. Bear in mind, I'm taking about the negotiating of salary. If a grad came in knowing a lot about the things we do, they could be offered much more, but we don't see many of them (and no-one is aware of our salary offering before they interview).

And from all I've learned about hiring and working with grads, is that you have more of them talking the talk, but very rarely walking the walk, and it;s rare enough to not consider, (we'd notice anyway).After a few years, developers who are worth more will get the money. What it boils down to in simple language. We aren't losing the graduates because they wouldn't accept 25k, we're getting the graduates we want at 25k, and the ones we didn't were because they didn't interview well enough. The sky is the limit for these guys after that. (Ok, not sky, but decent enough :P)

Still sounds like it might be a false economy to me.
I don't know what your core business is, though. Maybe you are something like a large insurance firm, and IT is perceived as a cost; that would explain things.


But if tech talent is core to your business, I can't help but wonder whether you are sacrificing a lot of talent with such a strategy.


Yeah, many techies can't/won't negotiate well for salary, but that doesn't mean that you should pay them as little as you can. They aren't stupid people, they'll eventually figure it out.

These same people who won't negotiate, even though they might be quite talented, are the kind of people who just take the other better offer with letting you know; or just come in one day and announce they've got another job.

I can't help but wonder about how much knowledge capital (due to turnover), talent, and goodwill you lose over a relatively small amount of money.

But maybe its not a real issue; I'm only speculating, as I don't know your business.

Interesting discussion, anyway.

yawha

Yeah, the difference between a good grad and an average grad is HUGE in IT.

Depending on the business, you might be fine hiring average grads who eventually get a bit better, but IMO there's a lot of business value in getting a good grad over an average one.

fergalr

Just trying to see who you worked for there - a company in the online retail space? If so, I've heard about that particular company not paying terribly well before.

From your comment on the other current thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78440338

Giblet wrote: »

Except it seems these elusive graduates don't exist. My PM box and email accounts have tumbleweeds blowing through them.

Honestly, paying the grads a little more might make sense, even from a HR/recruiting/marketing-spend point of view - lots of people find jobs through friends, etc.

I don't know - maybe not - its hard to evaluate these things, and I'm not in the business.

Giblet

Compared to my peers I probably earn more for my experience than most, and I earned less as a grad than some. So yes, we tend to pay less starting off. Again, our company is known for more than just pay though. We still have regular meet ups with new staff and old staff alike, and it's for good reason. And we are an extremely technical company, so our benchmark is pretty high, but you get training and get mentored to bring you through the ranks fairly fast, and that knowledge is useful going forward, either here or in a new career. Like I said, we never intend to undercut grads, but we have a high benchmark, and there are more things than money involved. Most people have heard of our clients too, so it's a good CV addition.

Oh and for that thread. We managed to get three graduates this week, and one senior. Was a bit of a hunt, lots of frogs to be kissed.

[edit] sorry for terrible spelling, rushing this before dinner /

stupidusername

Reading this is a little depressing tbh, as I just had an interview for a developer internship (unpaid). If I'd just went for a paid job straight from college, I'd be rolling in it by now

conor.hogan.2

stupidusername wrote: »

Reading this is a little depressing tbh, as I just had an interview for a developer internship (unpaid). If I'd just went for a paid job straight from college, I'd be rolling in it by now

Why can't you go for a paid job now?

stupidusername

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Why can't you go for a paid job now?

I'm afraid I haven't been doing any development since I finished college, so I'd be no use really

conor.hogan.2

stupidusername wrote: »

I'm afraid I haven't been doing any development since I finished college, so I'd be no use really

Ah, yes that would be a bit of a set back. Hope the internship goes well and you get a full job quick.

_underscore

Very interesting post and some great responses guys.

If I was asked what salary to expect i'd say 35k. I would probably accept 30 and be happy with 32, with anything extra a bonus. I think this is reasonably logical. If I was taking 30 i'd make it clear I expect some kind of rise if I pass probationary period, is this ok?

I will be the first to admit that i'm a really bad negotiator so any tips on this would be really appreciated.

- Should I say things like "I feel I deserve x because I have demonstrated decent knowledge of topic y"

- What other benefits/perks are there aside from pay: subsidised canteen, partial payment for gym membership, stock options (this is a recently floated company) ??

- The offer will be coming through before I have my final results for my degree, so should I expect terms to be pending a certain grade of degree?

Also, how do recruitment agencies work in this scenario? I've heard I can contact agencies and they'll find me many options? What are peoples experiences with those?

Thanks Guys..

conor.hogan.2

_underscore wrote: »

- What other benefits/perks are there aside from pay: subsidised canteen, partial payment for gym membership, stock options (this is a recently floated company) ??

- The offer will be coming through before I have my final results for my degree, so should I expect terms to be pending a certain grade of degree?

Also, how do recruitment agencies work in this scenario? I've heard I can contact agencies and they'll find me many options? What are peoples experiences with those?

Thanks Guys..

Varies highly. Gym, health insurance and canteen being the 3 I saw most.

I got offers before my final grade. I have not been asked for my final grade since accepting an offer either. I just had down on my CV "current GPA=x, expected GPA=x" and a few times this was clarified in emails, over the phone and in interviews but did not feature to heavily.

I did not get a single interview from any of the agencies I contacted, not a single interview. Every interview or even technical tests etc was from direct contact with the company (mostly through ads they placed)

srsly78

Gym and health insurance are benefits in kind, so you gotta pay tax on them. Therefore not really benefits at all, another trick employers like to pull. They might be able to bulk-negotiate good prices and pass that on to employee but it still isn't free.

Canteen however, is a genuine bonus (so long as it's free!). So don't assume 5 grand in benefits is the same as 5 grand in your pocket.

Brussels Sprout

I think another 'benefit' that needs to be considered and hasn't been mentioned yet is the number of hours that you'll be expected to work each week. From my own experience of job hunting the best salaries are to be found in the financial industry. However, for a lot of those jobs you'd be expected to work more than 40 hours per week as standard.
Another downside to this sector is the lack of social value in the work. That aspect probably wouldn't bother a lot of people but for others it is quite important.

fergalr

srsly78 wrote: »

Gym and health insurance are benefits in kind, so you gotta pay tax on them. Therefore not really benefits at all, another trick employers like to pull. They might be able to bulk-negotiate good prices and pass that on to employee but it still isn't free.

Canteen however, is a genuine bonus (so long as it's free!). So don't assume 5 grand in benefits is the same as 5 grand in your pocket.

Taxable benefits are still benefits.

(30K salary + employer pays health insurance) is better than
(30K salary + employee pays own health insurance).

Also, health insurance is tax deductible.

Clanket

fergalr wrote: »

Also, health insurance is tax deductible.

A lot of people don't realise that if their employer pays their health insurance and they pay BIK on it, they are allowed claim tax relief on the health insurance. This is because the employer must repay to Revenue the tax relief at source (TRS) that's given by the health insurance providers when the employer is paying the premium (repaid when the employer is doing their Corporation tax returns).

So if your health insurance is paid by your employer and you pay BIK, contact Revenue and tell them. You'll also be able to go back 4 years if you haven't been doing this.

Feathers

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I think another 'benefit' that needs to be considered and hasn't been mentioned yet is the number of hours that you'll be expected to work each week. From my own experience of job hunting the best salaries are to be found in the financial industry. However, for a lot of those jobs you'd be expected to work more than 40 hours per week as standard.
Another downside to this sector is the lack of social value in the work. That aspect probably wouldn't bother a lot of people but for others it is quite important.

This is very true. I moved over to London & went from a 37.5hr/week to a 45hr/week. Did get some more money out of it, but definitely starting off you noticed that extra 1 1/2hr per day — think it's definitely a consideration.

skimpydoo

Giblet wrote: »

We offer based on what we establish you want and what we get away with. And yes, if you're good enough, you will get what you want, if you fall in line with our budget. Most grads feel nervous and while they might say some figure, you'll most likely hear "Between X & Y". X is what you are offered. You have to remember, past a certain value, we move higher up the food chain, or just don't care. Seriously, there's no such thing as a prodigal developer we've let through our fingertips, that's just the individual's ego or someone we couldn't accommodate. If such a person does exist, we've play the % better anyway, even if we lose that 1 person.

A class mate of mine in college saw a job advertised on the net for a developer to work in the cloud. 5 years experience of C# is a must and the salary was an eye watering 20K. I graduate later this year and a few of our class were seeing what is out there, which was why he spotted the above job.

d'Oracle

Just because its advertised on the internet doesn't make it real.

It's possible that this particular employer has unrealistic expectations in comparison to the rest of the market.

everdead.ie

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

A class mate of mine in college saw a job advertised on the net for a developer to work in the cloud. 5 years experience of C# is a must and the salary was an eye watering 20K. I graduate later this year and a few of our class were seeing what is out there, which was why he spotted the above job.

That certainly seems very low I don't suppose it was contract work for a few months?

stupidusername

I've seen quite a few jobs advertised looking for experienced developers,paying only 20-25k,it's becoming much more common

everdead.ie

stupidusername wrote: »

I've seen quite a few jobs advertised looking for experienced developers,paying only 20-25k,it's becoming much more common

proably the same adds for jobs going unfilled.

stupidusername

Oh i'd imagine many are,but i'm saying there are lots asking for decent experience for low pay.

Clanket

They can ask all they like. Hopefully people aren't silly enough to take them seriously.

k.p.h

Pay peanuts, get monkeys...?

This quite interesting though..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

average_runner

Around 22k, woulnt never hire a grad on 30k as can get three years experience on 30k instead which is more valuable!

Jayo_M

average_runner wrote: »

Around 22k, woulnt never hire a grad on 30k as can get three years experience on 30k instead which is more valuable!

30k for a dev with three years experience? They must have serious low self-esteem.

lenovoguy

It's pretty easy to understand why there is such a shortage of talented software developers considering the woeful education to pay ratio that exists in the industry. I think employers get away with it because money isn't a primary motivation for the developers they do have, but for anyone researching future careers when picking courses on their CAO, the long-term prospects mustn't look good financially ; why would you bother going into software dev when you can go into finance or banking and be earning upwards of 80k before you're 30.

ILikeBananas

I'd an interview last week for a grad developer in Cork (C# and Java). Starting salary was 28k with annual bumps of 4k for the first 3 years. Negotiable after that. Salary also included VHI, pension (6%) and Dental.

d'Oracle

k.p.h wrote: »

Pay peanuts, get monkeys...?

This quite interesting though..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

8:55

Illuminati.

RUN FOR THE HILLS.