Graduate Developer Salaries 2012 Edition

_underscore

Hi Guys,

So i've been this forum but the threads realting to salaries are all a few years out of date. I will graduate this month so I would like to get a new ballpark figure for developer graduate salaries.

So, I will graduate this month with hopefully a 1:1 honours degree in Computer Science. I did a six month placement last year where I brought a product from inception through to release.

I have also completed a very good FYP that has impressed any body I have met from industry. It has landed me two job offers and my internship employer would like me back.

So my question is. What is the general salary for a graduate developer with my experience. Also, it is worth noting that i'm talking more about software development than web dev. My FYP was also in a niche area that not many graduates would have experience with.

Any ideas on what I should be aiming for? I was thinking somewhere around the €30k mark. Is this a high/low expectation?

Thanks.

Anima

Going from last year's thread I'd say around 30k, maybe more in Dublin. There are a ton of jobs around lately so you might be able to squeeze more out of them.

everdead.ie

_underscore wrote: »

Hi Guys,

So i've been this forum but the threads realting to salaries are all a few years out of date. I will graduate this month so I would like to get a new ballpark figure for developer graduate salaries.

So, I will graduate this month with hopefully a 1:1 honours degree in Computer Science. I did a six month placement last year where I brought a product from inception through to release.

I have also completed a very good FYP that has impressed any body I have met from industry. It has landed me two job offers and my internship employer would like me back.

So my question is. What is the general salary for a graduate developer with my experience. Also, it is worth noting that i'm talking more about software development than web dev. My FYP was also in a niche area that not many graduates would have experience with.

Any ideas on what I should be aiming for? I was thinking somewhere around the €30k mark. Is this a high/low expectation?

Thanks.

From my experience 33K is the highest Salary I have heard of, but last year a company was hiring grad Java developers and was looking to pay 24K in Tallaght which isn't great money given demand.

That said finding a dev job straight out of college is hard a lot of them are Dev + support or testing moving onto Dev after you do your time.

I think 27 -30K in Dublin though would be expected given the higher cost of living.

Outside of Dublin I'd say it could be between 24-28K but then your money probably gets you further so depends really where you want to work.

Giblet

25-27k depending on a few factors. Salaries tend to go up quite quick early on (in our place) so I wouldn't put too much stock in a higher starting salary. Working 6 months though, and actually being involved in a release might bring it to 30k.

k.p.h

everdead.ie wrote: »

last year a company was hiring grad Java developers and was looking to pay 24K in Tallaght which isn't great money given demand.

Wonder how many applicants they got that could do the job with those rates..?

_underscore

These are some interesting figures.

So i'm going to take 30k as being ballpark. My god, 24k is terrible. I was on 25 before I had even graduated.

Thanks for the pointers guys.

everdead.ie

k.p.h wrote: »

Wonder how many applicants they got that could do the job with those rates..?

No Idea they were hiring through an agency though so most probably didn't know until pretty late on in the interview process.

Giblet

A salary is a negotiation, not a validation of how good your are. If you are good, you will get a good salary, but those whose get high salaries aren't always good, and those who are good, their employer would rather pay less to.

You are part of a P&L, that's all. And in terms of graduates, you are pretty much going to be low balled as much as possible because you have less experience, not only of the tasks required, but also negotiating salaries (this is targeted at younger graduates). So 30k, get the right company, have the right experience, show the aptitude. You will get the salary. Unfortunately this is only the beginning. You have to be concerned with what you will earn, along with what you will learn. We start all grads at 25k. You can probably argue higher than this, and you can probably get it. But that comes down to your negotiating ability, after we have potentially hired you in our heads. If you have it that you should earn more in your head, then feel free to walk away. If you don't fit our plan either, it's not going to work. It doesn't have anything to do with how good you think you are, or how you will progress in future (which in our company, is the key, you become invaluable, you will be invaluable and be paid as such). It's not too unusual to get 5k bumps per year of service.

Your FYP matters ****, you had months to concentrate on a labour of love. And if it's cool, we will take it that you have a good aptitude. Don't think that most professionals couldn't nail your project in less time though.

I don't know anyone elses experience with hiring people here, but this is how I interview, and it works out ok. Loads of graduates think they should earn loads because they had better projects that their peers.

k.p.h

Giblet wrote: »

I don't know anyone elses experience with hiring people here, but this is how I interview, and it works out ok. Loads of graduates think they should earn loads because they had better projects that their peers.

But would you let a grad walk if you felt that they had everything you were looking for and could become productive very quickly, but you were offering 25k and they wanted 30k.?

Giblet

We offer based on what we establish you want and what we get away with. And yes, if you're good enough, you will get what you want, if you fall in line with our budget. Most grads feel nervous and while they might say some figure, you'll most likely hear "Between X & Y". X is what you are offered. You have to remember, past a certain value, we move higher up the food chain, or just don't care. Seriously, there's no such thing as a prodigal developer we've let through our fingertips, that's just the individual's ego or someone we couldn't accommodate. If such a person does exist, we've play the % better anyway, even if we lose that 1 person.

conor.hogan.2

If I was asked what figure I was looking for on my job offer then I would (at best) be getting 4k less a year as it is my first dev job and not having any negotiation skills etc. Lucky I was not asked in that instance.

Giblet

That's very typical conor,the thing is, once established, say 1 year or so, then it becomes harder to refuse. Graduates need to remember, you are entering a system you have no experience of that might throw you on your head.

Jayo_M

The offers I got last summer ranged from €26k to €33k. The lowest I heard of being offered was €22k, which was strangely taken up by a 1:1 student. I've not heard of anything above €33k here, but in London £40k~ in the financial institutions seems to be the norm.

conor.hogan.2

Giblet wrote: »

That's very typical conor,the thing is, once established, say 1 year or so, then it becomes harder to refuse. Graduates need to remember, you are entering a system you have no experience of that might throw you on your head.

Harder to refuse what?

On the grad no experience thing I very much agree I was willing to work for the equivalence of the Dole for a small company where I live but they needed to hire a senior person first and have not gotten back but had they gotten back I would have taken it for the experience.

Giblet

Sorry, not so coherent tonight, I mean harder to refuse requests for wage increases once you are established.

conor.hogan.2

Giblet wrote: »

Sorry, not so coherent tonight, I mean harder to refuse requests for wage increases once you are established.

The employer finds it harder to refuse requests for pay increases? Ye, I still don't quite know what you meant.

TehDagsBass

I'll be graduating from comp sci next year. I'll have a good degree, over a year of development experience due to taking a year out, and presumably a good FYP.

There is not a chance that I will even speak to Irish companies for graduate software development positions here. Compared to their international counterparts, they're a bunch of jokers for the most part.

I'll be in touch with employers in Canada and Aus and perhaps the US with regards to graduate employment, and finance houses here for finance based grad positions as they love computer science graduates also.

You can enter AIB as a business graduate with 2.2 or worse degree from any college in the country and be a teller for €31k starting off, with a guaranteed raise + bonus every year and defined career path. I wouldn't even give a company offering €25k the time required to send a "**** off" email to them.

conor.hogan.2

TehDagsBass wrote: »

I wouldn't even give a company offering €25k the time required to send a "**** off" email to them.

You sound like you would be a delight to work with. Good luck in your career, you will not go far with that attitude.

Giblet

TehDagsBass wrote: »

You can enter AIB as a business graduate with 2.2 or worse degree from any college in the country and be a teller for €31k starting off, with a guaranteed raise + bonus every year and defined career path. I wouldn't even give a company offering €25k the time required to send a "**** off" email to them.

Some of our 25k grads are well over that now after short time periods, with real careers, a grad is a grad, you all know **** all and we know that better than you. Sorry to be blunt. It doesn't matter that you don't think it's worth it, you're still in college. As far as I know AIB grads are made do tests all the time and just mince around in the system, and the pay raises are generally crap (and they're probably going to be laid off sooner rather than later, how many seniors gone in the last few years?) and NOTHING guaranteed so you are telling porkies there.

TehDagsBass

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You sound like you would be a delight to work with. Good luck in your career, you will not go far with that attitude.

I am a delight to work with ... probably because I have a decent job that pays more than €25k and am getting experience for my post-graduate career!

Giblet wrote: »

Some of our 25k grads are well over that now after short time periods, with real careers, a grad is a grad, you all know **** all and we know that better than you. Sorry to be blunt. It doesn't matter that you don't think it's worth it, you're still in college. As far as I know AIB grads are made do tests all the time and just mince around in the system, and the pay raises are generally crap (and they're probably going to be laid off sooner rather than later, how many seniors gone in the last few years?) and NOTHING guaranteed so you are telling porkies there.

A grad is a grad indeed, however not all grads are created equal and shouldn't be paid as though they are. A 22 year old grad of a 4 year course, who has worked during that course to support himself, done very well in college, shown an interest in the field outside of academia is dramatically different to a 22 year old grad with a 2.2, lived with his folks and has never worked a day in his life and shows no real interest in the field.

My circumstances are significantly different to both and in reflection of them and my own experience (I'm a mature student, having spent a few years doing something else both academically and professionally but which is of high value in IT) there is absolutely no way I would entertain an entry salary of €25k in this county. Why would you bother, when you can get on a plane and get a higher standard of living and higher starting salary, even as just a mere graduate, in almost any other developed country?

With regards to AIB, well, I'll just say I know of the guarantees made because I happened to work for them previously and know people working for them currently. With regards to layoffs within the company, as part of their bailout they committed to a reduction in their pay costs. What they're currently doing is taking on a plethora of graduates in order to train them up, while they replace middle aged lifers who are in management positions or merely just have been around AIB for a long time, who are on comparatively "extreme" salaries.

Redundancies are being made, for sure, but those being made redundant are being replaced and these grad students are coming in to help do so (i.e branch manager is made redundant, second in command moves up a position, third in command moves up, etc etc. until there has been no real loss in staff numbers but a reduction in the cost of staff per year due to the lower salaries employed.

With regards to the "tests", the current graduates are given an aptitude test at the beginning of the recruitment process. If they do "well", they're given a second test. If they do well in that, they're put into Group A. If they don't, they're put into Group B, and I believe there is a Group C who don't do well in the aptitude test itself but are otherwise employable.

Group A are being taken on in retail business banking, Group B are being taken on in retail personal banking and group C are given the "entry level" positions, although in reality all three could be done with no academic experience at all. It's not all that interesting, but they're being paid very well to do so. They're on 23 month contracts so they're certainly open to not being kept on at the end, however AIB will more than likely hold tight to anything reasonably ok at the job so that they don't have to appear in the news any further.

Anyway, my point is, why stick around here as an educated, skilled and able graduate of a fairly tough and respected field, when entry level banking jobs are offering more money and more opportunities for salary growth? Particularly when a better life and better salary is just a short flight away?

I keep hearing about how the IT/Software industry is crying out for staff here these days, but they're going to be in a much, much worse situation if they're not going to compete with their international counterparts going forward. There's benefits to having very highly transferable skills.

The finance industry here, however, will take on a computer science graduate on substantially more than €25k, which is why I'll be looking to make the move into it if I stay here after graduation.

conor.hogan.2

All that glitters.
There are international and Finance software companies in Ireland too.

The_B_Man

Microsoft are hiring graduates at 37K + 10% bonus starting off.
Most grads i know are going for 30k. I know someone in a startup getting 34k.

This is all in dublin.
I know someone in the west that started off in a big company on 28k, and know someone in the midlands starting off on 26k.

TehDagsBass

Windows 8 based FYP it is so

Giblet

I think you're missing the point here. I know all grads are different, but as I said before, it's rare to find someone who can hit the ground running so to speak that actually makes it worth spending more. We don't hire the guy who doesn't try in his studies. The fact is, we'll offer what we see fit, but 25k works, so we offer that most. Some guys come in on 27k, never 30k in my experience. The place I work has other benefits too beyond monetary anyway! Arguing over a few k at the start of your career is a mistake. It's not a reflection of you, you aren't competing with anyone, you are building a career. Go for the one that you will end up doing the work you like in an environment you like. (Just for the record, I think we give 5k jumps as standard every 12 months, and maybe 2 jumps in the first year for decent grads). Microsoft offered 32k when I started, I went with the 26k and haven't looked back. A good FYP actually got me the interview with MS, so it's worth doing right, but don't bank everything on it.

everdead.ie

The_B_Man wrote: »

Microsoft are hiring graduates at 37K + 10% bonus starting off.
Most grads i know are going for 30k. I know someone in a startup getting 34k.

This is all in dublin.
I know someone in the west that started off in a big company on 28k, and know someone in the midlands starting off on 26k.

RE starting in the west I suppose that is the differnce in the cost of living so if anyone is considering moving to Dublin for a few extra 1000 think about it first if you want to do it because it is much more expensive here.

everdead.ie

Giblet wrote: »

I think you're missing the point here. I know all grads are different, but as I said before, it's rare to find someone who can hit the ground running so to speak that actually makes it worth spending more. We don't hire the guy who doesn't try in his studies. The fact is, we'll offer what we see fit, but 25k works, so we offer that most. Some guys come in on 27k, never 30k in my experience. The place I work has other benefits too beyond monetary anyway! Arguing over a few k at the start of your career is a mistake. It's not a reflection of you, you aren't competing with anyone, you are building a career. Go for the one that you will end up doing the work you like in an environment you like. (Just for the record, I think we give 5k jumps as standard every 12 months, and maybe 2 jumps in the first year for decent grads). Microsoft offered 32k when I started, I went with the 26k and haven't looked back. A good FYP actually got me the interview with MS, so it's worth doing right, but don't bank everything on it.

They are some very significant jumps and I'm sure if a grad was made aware of this they would view the offered compensation very differently.

A possible 10K jump in your first year is a massive incentive to really work hard and put the effort in.

I'm coming around to my first pay review with a large company but I am only expecting a nominal salary increase that kind of raise is surely out of the norm?

Giblet

I think as a caveat I should qualify that in every case, the grad should indeed be making decent progress and be a valuable member of the team and have a solid work ethic. Once you are proven, then no reason why you shouldn't be compensated. We tell people there is a decent career progress and they should expect salary jumps, but not what and when for obvious reasons. (We don't need an expectation, we need good workers)

k.p.h

TehDagsBass wrote: »

Why would you bother, when you can get on a plane and get a higher standard of living and higher starting salary, even as just a mere graduate, in almost any other developed country?

Cheerio ..

I'm pretty sure if you were to ask any grad what scenario they would like with regard to salary they would lean to what Giblet described. Fine it's a modest start but hard work and self improvement are rewarded with annual pay increases.

It actually works well for both parties, the employer ends up paying what is in reality the employees relative worth. The employee works hard with a clear career path and is paid accordingly.

fergalr

Giblet wrote: »

We offer based on what we establish you want and what we get away with. And yes, if you're good enough, you will get what you want, if you fall in line with our budget. Most grads feel nervous and while they might say some figure, you'll most likely hear "Between X & Y". X is what you are offered. You have to remember, past a certain value, we move higher up the food chain, or just don't care. Seriously, there's no such thing as a prodigal developer we've let through our fingertips, that's just the individual's ego or someone we couldn't accommodate. If such a person does exist, we've play the % better anyway, even if we lose that 1 person.

Giblet, I would be interested in a more detailed explanation of what you mean by "we've play the % better anyway, even if we lose that 1 person".

The value that any reasonable company should get from a developer (especially after a couple of years experience) is a large multiple of that developer's salary.
Its hard to pick a figure, but you'd assume at least a multiple of 3 - to pay for the overheads of managing the developer, arranging the contracts, paying the owners of the business / profit, expenses etc.

This delta is usually fairly obvious, if the developer is being contracted out. But it should also be the case - or even more so - if the developer is doing internal product development, or business support, etc.

Basically, the developer is in a leveraged position. If Dev_A is 20% better than Dev_B, you would hope Dev_A should generate 60% more of a return - at least.


So, given that developers are in a leveraged position, how much more is it worth paying to get a better grad, who will be that good developer in 2 years time?

I guess it depends on what the delta between the best developers, and the normal developers, is.

And also on how well that delta can be determined, based on the signals available when interviewing a grad.
After all, if a company can't tell a good dev from a bad one, then it makes sense that they would not be willing to pay a premium to get a better selection.

I would just point out, that its a quite commonly held belief - that seems to have some empirical backing - that the best devs are really a lot more than 20% more productive than the average. I'd believe this too, based on my experience.

How well can a company judge who will be the best and the worst? Well, that depends on the competency of the hiring process in the company.
I would suggest that if the people doing the hiring are competent, they should be able to make a pretty good stab at selecting the more talented incoming grads, at telling the people who are interested in their stuff, from those who are asleep at the wheel. (And I don't mean by looking at degree scores).


3K of extra salary, to get the better grads, should really be a small business expense, well worth spending to get more talent.
Not to mention the benefits of retaining employees, better morale, etc.


So I don't really understand your comments at all, about winning on the percentages?

Giblet wrote: »

a grad is a grad, you all know **** all and we know that better than you. Sorry to be blunt.

Honestly, this does not show a very enlightened attitude to hiring.

Shouldn't you be trying to learn something from every hire?

Isn't it possible that someone competent, that has spend 4 years studying a subject, perhaps done an interesting FYP, had some interesting internships, maybe done some interesting side projects, might just have some interesting experience to bring to the table?
No?

What sort of work are you guys doing?

TehDagsBass wrote: »

I'll be graduating from comp sci next year. I'll have a good degree, over a year of development experience due to taking a year out, and presumably a good FYP.

There is not a chance that I will even speak to Irish companies for graduate software development positions here. Compared to their international counterparts, they're a bunch of jokers for the most part.

I'll be in touch with employers in Canada and Aus and perhaps the US with regards to graduate employment, and finance houses here for finance based grad positions as they love computer science graduates also.

You can enter AIB as a business graduate with 2.2 or worse degree from any college in the country and be a teller for €31k starting off, with a guaranteed raise + bonus every year and defined career path. I wouldn't even give a company offering €25k the time required to send a "**** off" email to them.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You sound like you would be a delight to work with. Good luck in your career, you will not go far with that attitude.

k.p.h wrote: »

Cheerio ..

I'm pretty sure if you were to ask any grad what scenario they would like with regard to salary they would lean to what Giblet described. Fine it's a modest start but hard work and self improvement are rewarded with annual pay increases.

I think you are all being much too hard on 'TehDagsBass'.

The fact is that 25K is not a very large salary.

Minimum wage in Ireland is about 17.5K/year (according to google, eurostat).

That is 70% of the starting salary being proposed here for CS grads, who have forgone 4 years salary (=~70k), and who have, in fairness, done a reasonably challenging college degree.

It is also substantially less than what a teacher, with an honours degree, starts on. Which is over 32K. (But should probably be considered substantially higher, when you pro-rata the holidays in, and the generous pension entitlements, the reasonably secure public job, other benefits.)

I don't think its particularly unreasonable of 'TehDagsBass' to be questioning this state of affairs.

Particularly with, as it says in the other thread, certain interest groups harping on about how there aren't enough tech workers.

TehDagsBass wrote: »

Windows 8 based FYP it is so

That would not be my advice; if you mean that you'll spend your time learning how the windows 8 apis work, so you can narrowly target a MS job, I'd instead say to go do something thats more technically interesting, and that you won't get the opportunity to do after college.

conor.hogan.2

fergalr wrote: »

I think you are all being much too hard on 'TehDagsBass'.

The fact is that 25K is not a very large salary.

It is also substantially less than what a teacher, with an honours degree, starts on. Which is over 32K. (But should probably be considered substantially higher, when you pro-rata the holidays in, and the generous pension entitlements, the reasonably secure public job, other benefits.)

I don't think its particularly unreasonable of 'TehDagsBass' to be questioning this state of affairs.

25k is not even the average salary for a CS grad from what I have seen depending on the work they do.

Someone starting in a international company doing J(2)EE/.NET seems to be around the 30k mark and you have a lot of upward mobility when compared to say a teacher who starts at 32k* and pretty much stays there for a long time give or take a bit. I looked into it as my degree was Arts. Anyway this is not the type of field anyone should be getting into just for the money even more so than teaching.

The 30k salary swings up or down around 2k in Dublin. I have no idea for the rest of the country but I seen around 3 jobs for grads outside of Dublin (but still in Ireland, excluding NI) when I was looking anyway.

*around this figure with a 2.1 primary degree and a good hDip. You get more if you have Irish etc. With teaching the pay increase is slow and steady whereas good developers can get a lot higher up the scale very fast.

For someone interested in teaching and CS then I would recommend CS as the salaries after the first 2 or so years is not even comparable. Even though money should not be a deciding factor especially in those two fields.

fergalr

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

25k is not even the average salary for a CS grad from what I have seen depending on the work they do.

The figure quoted here - 25k - surprised me because of its absolute size, as well as the attitude accompanying it. Maybe I'm out of touch, or seeing a biased sample, but some of the better grads I know were starting on 30k+ now, and higher than that in the past.

But software developers in general tend to be bad at negotiation, so I don't know if I'm seeing a strange sample.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Someone starting in a international company doing J(2)EE/.NET seems to be around the 30k mark and you have a lot of upward mobility when compared to say a teacher who starts at 32k* and pretty much stays there for a long time give or take a bit. I looked into it as my degree was Arts. Anyway this is not the type of field anyone should be getting into just for the money even more so than teaching.

*around this figure with a 2.1 primary degree and a good hDip. You get more if you have Irish etc. With teaching the pay increase is slow and steady whereas good developers can get a lot higher up the scale very fast.

The pay scales are publicly available, eg:
http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf

I think thats in line with the figure I gave.

conor.hogan.2

fergalr wrote: »

The figure quoted here - 25k - surprised me because of its absolute size, as well as the attitude accompanying it. Maybe I'm out of touch, or seeing a biased sample, but some of the better grads I know were starting on 30k+ now, and higher than that in the past.

But software developers in general tend to be bad at negotiation, so I don't know if I'm seeing a strange sample.

The pay scales are publicly available, eg:
http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf

I think thats in line with the figure I gave.

I know, 25k seems to be passed around as a general average for all IT related jobs. Whereas a developer average is more around 30k imo as I said.

Yes, a starting teacher can go from less than 30k up to around 34 or so (possibly higher) depending on a variety of factors but I think 32k is a fair average to say. Plus the wage increases are slow and steady when compared to in IT.

Giblet

fergalr wrote: »

Giblet, I would be interested in a more detailed explanation of what you mean by "we've play the % better anyway, even if we lose that 1 person".

The value that any reasonable company should get from a developer (especially after a couple of years experience) is a large multiple of that developer's salary.
Its hard to pick a figure, but you'd assume at least a multiple of 3 - to pay for the overheads of managing the developer, arranging the contracts, paying the owners of the business / profit, expenses etc.

This delta is usually fairly obvious, if the developer is being contracted out. But it should also be the case - or even more so - if the developer is doing internal product development, or business support, etc.

Basically, the developer is in a leveraged position. If Dev_A is 20% better than Dev_B, you would hope Dev_A should generate 60% more of a return - at least.


So, given that developers are in a leveraged position, how much more is it worth paying to get a better grad, who will be that good developer in 2 years time?

I guess it depends on what the delta between the best developers, and the normal developers, is.

And also on how well that delta can be determined, based on the signals available when interviewing a grad.
After all, if a company can't tell a good dev from a bad one, then it makes sense that they would not be willing to pay a premium to get a better selection.

I would just point out, that its a quite commonly held belief - that seems to have some empirical backing - that the best devs are really a lot more than 20% more productive than the average. I'd believe this too, based on my experience.

How well can a company judge who will be the best and the worst? Well, that depends on the competency of the hiring process in the company.
I would suggest that if the people doing the hiring are competent, they should be able to make a pretty good stab at selecting the more talented incoming grads, at telling the people who are interested in their stuff, from those who are asleep at the wheel. (And I don't mean by looking at degree scores).


3K of extra salary, to get the better grads, should really be a small business expense, well worth spending to get more talent.
Not to mention the benefits of retaining employees, better morale, etc.


So I don't really understand your comments at all, about winning on the percentages?

Honestly, this does not show a very enlightened attitude to hiring.

Shouldn't you be trying to learn something from every hire?

Actually, it's never about playing a game of %, it's a negotiation, and usually we're better at negotiating that the grad, and we can offer other things besides money. That's the % we play with. No-one is out to undercut a grad it's just the way it's played. Sure, some grads don't come into their own straight away anyway, so we risk losing people who've had bad interviews too. We do pay over 25k is some cases, but that's up to the grad to show they are worth it and to negotiate it. We won't offer more, but what you see happen is we offer x, and the grad accepts x because they aren't experience in asking for y, and this is the case most of the time. Bear in mind, I'm taking about the negotiating of salary. If a grad came in knowing a lot about the things we do, they could be offered much more, but we don't see many of them (and no-one is aware of our salary offering before they interview).

And from all I've learned about hiring and working with grads, is that you have more of them talking the talk, but very rarely walking the walk, and it;s rare enough to not consider, (we'd notice anyway).After a few years, developers who are worth more will get the money. What it boils down to in simple language. We aren't losing the graduates because they wouldn't accept 25k, we're getting the graduates we want at 25k, and the ones we didn't were because they didn't interview well enough. The sky is the limit for these guys after that. (Ok, not sky, but decent enough :P)

fergalr

Giblet wrote: »

Actually, it's never about playing a game of %, it's a negotiation, and usually we're better at negotiating that the grad, and we can offer other things besides money. That's the % we play with. No-one is out to undercut a grad it's just the way it's played. Sure, some grads don't come into their own straight away anyway, so we risk losing people who've had bad interviews too. We do pay over 25k is some cases, but that's up to the grad to show they are worth it and to negotiate it. We won't offer more, but what you see happen is we offer x, and the grad accepts x because they aren't experience in asking for y, and this is the case most of the time. Bear in mind, I'm taking about the negotiating of salary. If a grad came in knowing a lot about the things we do, they could be offered much more, but we don't see many of them (and no-one is aware of our salary offering before they interview).

And from all I've learned about hiring and working with grads, is that you have more of them talking the talk, but very rarely walking the walk, and it;s rare enough to not consider, (we'd notice anyway).After a few years, developers who are worth more will get the money. What it boils down to in simple language. We aren't losing the graduates because they wouldn't accept 25k, we're getting the graduates we want at 25k, and the ones we didn't were because they didn't interview well enough. The sky is the limit for these guys after that. (Ok, not sky, but decent enough :P)

Still sounds like it might be a false economy to me.
I don't know what your core business is, though. Maybe you are something like a large insurance firm, and IT is perceived as a cost; that would explain things.


But if tech talent is core to your business, I can't help but wonder whether you are sacrificing a lot of talent with such a strategy.


Yeah, many techies can't/won't negotiate well for salary, but that doesn't mean that you should pay them as little as you can. They aren't stupid people, they'll eventually figure it out.

These same people who won't negotiate, even though they might be quite talented, are the kind of people who just take the other better offer with letting you know; or just come in one day and announce they've got another job.

I can't help but wonder about how much knowledge capital (due to turnover), talent, and goodwill you lose over a relatively small amount of money.

But maybe its not a real issue; I'm only speculating, as I don't know your business.

Interesting discussion, anyway.

yawha

Yeah, the difference between a good grad and an average grad is HUGE in IT.

Depending on the business, you might be fine hiring average grads who eventually get a bit better, but IMO there's a lot of business value in getting a good grad over an average one.

fergalr

Just trying to see who you worked for there - a company in the online retail space? If so, I've heard about that particular company not paying terribly well before.

From your comment on the other current thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78440338

Giblet wrote: »

Except it seems these elusive graduates don't exist. My PM box and email accounts have tumbleweeds blowing through them.

Honestly, paying the grads a little more might make sense, even from a HR/recruiting/marketing-spend point of view - lots of people find jobs through friends, etc.

I don't know - maybe not - its hard to evaluate these things, and I'm not in the business.

Giblet

Compared to my peers I probably earn more for my experience than most, and I earned less as a grad than some. So yes, we tend to pay less starting off. Again, our company is known for more than just pay though. We still have regular meet ups with new staff and old staff alike, and it's for good reason. And we are an extremely technical company, so our benchmark is pretty high, but you get training and get mentored to bring you through the ranks fairly fast, and that knowledge is useful going forward, either here or in a new career. Like I said, we never intend to undercut grads, but we have a high benchmark, and there are more things than money involved. Most people have heard of our clients too, so it's a good CV addition.

Oh and for that thread. We managed to get three graduates this week, and one senior. Was a bit of a hunt, lots of frogs to be kissed.

[edit] sorry for terrible spelling, rushing this before dinner /

stupidusername

Reading this is a little depressing tbh, as I just had an interview for a developer internship (unpaid). If I'd just went for a paid job straight from college, I'd be rolling in it by now

conor.hogan.2

stupidusername wrote: »

Reading this is a little depressing tbh, as I just had an interview for a developer internship (unpaid). If I'd just went for a paid job straight from college, I'd be rolling in it by now

Why can't you go for a paid job now?

stupidusername

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Why can't you go for a paid job now?

I'm afraid I haven't been doing any development since I finished college, so I'd be no use really

conor.hogan.2

stupidusername wrote: »

I'm afraid I haven't been doing any development since I finished college, so I'd be no use really

Ah, yes that would be a bit of a set back. Hope the internship goes well and you get a full job quick.

_underscore

Very interesting post and some great responses guys.

If I was asked what salary to expect i'd say 35k. I would probably accept 30 and be happy with 32, with anything extra a bonus. I think this is reasonably logical. If I was taking 30 i'd make it clear I expect some kind of rise if I pass probationary period, is this ok?

I will be the first to admit that i'm a really bad negotiator so any tips on this would be really appreciated.

- Should I say things like "I feel I deserve x because I have demonstrated decent knowledge of topic y"

- What other benefits/perks are there aside from pay: subsidised canteen, partial payment for gym membership, stock options (this is a recently floated company) ??

- The offer will be coming through before I have my final results for my degree, so should I expect terms to be pending a certain grade of degree?

Also, how do recruitment agencies work in this scenario? I've heard I can contact agencies and they'll find me many options? What are peoples experiences with those?

Thanks Guys..

conor.hogan.2

_underscore wrote: »

- What other benefits/perks are there aside from pay: subsidised canteen, partial payment for gym membership, stock options (this is a recently floated company) ??

- The offer will be coming through before I have my final results for my degree, so should I expect terms to be pending a certain grade of degree?

Also, how do recruitment agencies work in this scenario? I've heard I can contact agencies and they'll find me many options? What are peoples experiences with those?

Thanks Guys..

Varies highly. Gym, health insurance and canteen being the 3 I saw most.

I got offers before my final grade. I have not been asked for my final grade since accepting an offer either. I just had down on my CV "current GPA=x, expected GPA=x" and a few times this was clarified in emails, over the phone and in interviews but did not feature to heavily.

I did not get a single interview from any of the agencies I contacted, not a single interview. Every interview or even technical tests etc was from direct contact with the company (mostly through ads they placed)

srsly78

Gym and health insurance are benefits in kind, so you gotta pay tax on them. Therefore not really benefits at all, another trick employers like to pull. They might be able to bulk-negotiate good prices and pass that on to employee but it still isn't free.

Canteen however, is a genuine bonus (so long as it's free!). So don't assume 5 grand in benefits is the same as 5 grand in your pocket.

Brussels Sprout

I think another 'benefit' that needs to be considered and hasn't been mentioned yet is the number of hours that you'll be expected to work each week. From my own experience of job hunting the best salaries are to be found in the financial industry. However, for a lot of those jobs you'd be expected to work more than 40 hours per week as standard.
Another downside to this sector is the lack of social value in the work. That aspect probably wouldn't bother a lot of people but for others it is quite important.

fergalr

srsly78 wrote: »

Gym and health insurance are benefits in kind, so you gotta pay tax on them. Therefore not really benefits at all, another trick employers like to pull. They might be able to bulk-negotiate good prices and pass that on to employee but it still isn't free.

Canteen however, is a genuine bonus (so long as it's free!). So don't assume 5 grand in benefits is the same as 5 grand in your pocket.

Taxable benefits are still benefits.

(30K salary + employer pays health insurance) is better than
(30K salary + employee pays own health insurance).

Also, health insurance is tax deductible.

Clanket

fergalr wrote: »

Also, health insurance is tax deductible.

A lot of people don't realise that if their employer pays their health insurance and they pay BIK on it, they are allowed claim tax relief on the health insurance. This is because the employer must repay to Revenue the tax relief at source (TRS) that's given by the health insurance providers when the employer is paying the premium (repaid when the employer is doing their Corporation tax returns).

So if your health insurance is paid by your employer and you pay BIK, contact Revenue and tell them. You'll also be able to go back 4 years if you haven't been doing this.

Feathers

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I think another 'benefit' that needs to be considered and hasn't been mentioned yet is the number of hours that you'll be expected to work each week. From my own experience of job hunting the best salaries are to be found in the financial industry. However, for a lot of those jobs you'd be expected to work more than 40 hours per week as standard.
Another downside to this sector is the lack of social value in the work. That aspect probably wouldn't bother a lot of people but for others it is quite important.

This is very true. I moved over to London & went from a 37.5hr/week to a 45hr/week. Did get some more money out of it, but definitely starting off you noticed that extra 1 1/2hr per day — think it's definitely a consideration.

skimpydoo

Giblet wrote: »

We offer based on what we establish you want and what we get away with. And yes, if you're good enough, you will get what you want, if you fall in line with our budget. Most grads feel nervous and while they might say some figure, you'll most likely hear "Between X & Y". X is what you are offered. You have to remember, past a certain value, we move higher up the food chain, or just don't care. Seriously, there's no such thing as a prodigal developer we've let through our fingertips, that's just the individual's ego or someone we couldn't accommodate. If such a person does exist, we've play the % better anyway, even if we lose that 1 person.

A class mate of mine in college saw a job advertised on the net for a developer to work in the cloud. 5 years experience of C# is a must and the salary was an eye watering 20K. I graduate later this year and a few of our class were seeing what is out there, which was why he spotted the above job.

d'Oracle

Just because its advertised on the internet doesn't make it real.

It's possible that this particular employer has unrealistic expectations in comparison to the rest of the market.

everdead.ie

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

A class mate of mine in college saw a job advertised on the net for a developer to work in the cloud. 5 years experience of C# is a must and the salary was an eye watering 20K. I graduate later this year and a few of our class were seeing what is out there, which was why he spotted the above job.

That certainly seems very low I don't suppose it was contract work for a few months?