Anyone for Sandhurst?

eyescreamcone

On another thread I was getting barracked for mentioning British Army Officer Cadetships so here goes.

Are many Irish republic citizens applying to Sandhurst for a cadetship as backup to their Irish Defence Forces application???

Are many applying as their No.1 application???

Do people think that the BA Officer has better career prospects than those of a similar age in the IDF??

In other words, which is better and why??

How easy is it to get in?

I'd particularly like to hear from someone who went through the mill and could talk from experience.

If you know anything about Royal Navy or RAF officer entry/training feel free to share also


Please leave all nationalism/colonialism gripes, 800 years etc, at the gate please!

KickstartHeart

The BA offers some benefits like sweet trips abroad skiing and nice opportunities to go and train in places like Kenya etc.

I know a few guys in both Armies. You'd be surprised at how similar the job is on either side of the water. The BA offers some cool perks like what I've said above, but for a better career, I think the Irish Army is a better choice. You can argue which is a better army blah blah blah til the cows come home, but when it boils down to it, in either army if you join as an officer cadet, your'e going to train to a very high standard to be a young army officer. Both armies maintain a standard that internationally is quite high.


Edit: I don't have experience in this stuff btw. I'm not in either military.

cruasder777

KickstartHeart wrote: »

The BA offers some benefits like sweet trips abroad skiing and nice opportunities to go and train in places like Kenya etc.

I know a few guys in both Armies. You'd be surprised at how similar the job is on either side of the water. The BA offers some cool perks like what I've said above, but for a better career, I think the Irish Army is a better choice. You can argue which is a better army blah blah blah til the cows come home, but when it boils down to it, in either army if you join as an officer cadet, your'e going to train to a very high standard to be a young army officer. Both armies maintain a standard that internationally is quite high.


Edit: I don't have experience in this stuff btw. I'm not in either military.

That depends where you serving, I don't see how serving on a tour in Helmand is like serving in the republic ?

The British army has around 220 career choices.

I don't understand why on nearly every thread you feel the need to compare.


http://www.army.mod.uk/rolefinder/




"Do people think that the BA Officer has better career prospects than those of a similar age in the IDF??"


.........Obviously the larger an organisation the more promotion opportunity.

Example if you join as a student nurse, you get paid to train, have no fees and can apply for a commission in yr 3 of your degree.

Or if you want to do a law degree you can get the army to sponsor you if you join the army legal corps after, you join with the rank of captain and they train you to be a barrister or solicitor specialising in military law/Queens regulations.

Same with many other degrees.

There are immense opportunities.

KickstartHeart

"I don't understand why on nearly every thread you feel the need to compare"

Perhaps you should read that he asking about careers in the Irish Army and the British Army. The need to compare is obvious.

eyescreamcone

All info is welcome lads

How hard is it to get into Sandhurst?

The IDF competition is very difficult to win.
I would imagine that there are plenty of losers who would make as good officers as the winners of the IDF competition.
Would these guys and gals be better off concentrating on the BA competition ??

OS119

eyescreamcone wrote: »

...How hard is it to get into Sandhurst?...

hard.

the 'baseline' standards required are high, and the number of applications from high-quality candidates mean that someone who only met the 'baseline' standards wouldn't stand a chance.

anyone using RMAS as their 'fallback' is not only likely to be disappointed, but is likely to be rumbled during the application process - and RMAS isn't interested in anyone who'se eyes are elsewhere...

Maoltuile

eyescreamcone wrote: »

On another thread I was getting barracked for mentioning British Army Officer Cadetships so here goes.

Hang on here, one second. You were stirring it up in another thread with this stuff, so you thought you'd go one better and give this topic its own thread? Does this sound productive?

You are also aware of the rules about advocating that Irish citizens join foreign armies, I presume.

bwatson

Maoltuile wrote: »

Hang on here, one second. You were stirring it up in another thread with this stuff, so you thought you'd go one better and give this topic its own thread? Does this sound productive?

You are also aware of the rules about advocating that Irish citizens join foreign armies, I presume.

Umm, the reason he created a new thread is because he was advised to in the other one so that the conversation there was focused on Irish cadetships, so doing so is not in any way "stirring". It is not because he was angering posters with talk of de Britz.

Also, the word "advocating" is totally misplaced. Read the charter. He is well within his rights to ask questions if he wishes.

Morpheus

I thought that the rule was ONLY that you cannot "advertise" positions in other armies for irish citizens as its against the law here... however there is nothing wrong with discussions surrounding the joining of foreign forces.

eyescreamcone

Morphéus wrote: »

I thought the rule was that you cannot advertise positions in other armies for irish citizens as its against the law here!

Maybe, but there is no advert here - check again your eyesight must be going.

There are plenty of chats about the FFL - no one ever pipes up with the legals in those threads.

Morpheus

no mate, i was saying that in your favor!!!

I MEANT to point out that you are not advertising, you are asking a question... and that I thought that the ONLY thing against the rules was advertising a position in a foreign force.

My mate, former RDF Cpl from dublin is now in sandhurst a couple of months and loving every minute. Best of luck to you with the application. I applied myself and travelled north of the border for initial interview but sadly (looking back now) i never progressed to joining. wish I had.

eyescreamcone

Morphéus wrote: »

no mate, i was saying that in your favor!!!

I MEANT to point out that you are not advertising, you are asking a question... and that I thought that the ONLY thing against the rules was advertising a position in a foreign force.

My mate, former RDF Cpl from dublin is now in sandhurst a couple of months and loving every minute.

Apologies - maybe my eyesight needs checking
Good to see the RDF doing well too.

davetherave

Morphéus wrote: »

My mate, former RDF Cpl from dublin is now in sandhurst a couple of months and loving every minute.

He's heading into his 2nd term next week. :pac:

Assuming we are both on about the same person, can't imagine there being 2 or more RDF Corporals in the same intake :pac::pac:

KickstartHeart

Sandhurst used to be easier to get into than the cadetschool. I remember reading (I can't find it so I can't link it) the numbers of applicants and the numbers that get a place in Sandhurst. The ratio suggests that getting into Sandhurst is very very easy compared to getting into the cadetschool.

But things are different now. Sandhurst is to be taking less officer cadets and the competition is much harder at the moment. Their intakes are getting smaller. So whoever said you can't use Sandhurst as a fall back if you don't get into the cadetschool is right. Its probably still easier to get into but a lot of people seem to think that the BA is something to fall back on. The BA may be easier to get into than the Irish Army but that doesn't mean any run of the mill person who got turned down from the Defence Force's cadet school can get into Sandhurst.

Getting into Sandhurst is also a competition just as much as the DF's cadetships is.

goldie fish

Don't forget, getting a place in sandhurst is still very reliant on what school you went to. Look at the recent commissionings there, and of the irish, you won't find any who went to ballinasloe community college, or the christian brothers in mullingar....
It is still very much upper class, private school chaps. Clongowes, belvedere etc.

Poccington

goldie fish wrote: »

Don't forget, getting a place in sandhurst is still very reliant on what school you went to. Look at the recent commissionings there, and of the irish, you won't find any who went to ballinasloe community college, or the christian brothers in mullingar....
It is still very much upper class, private school chaps. Clongowes, belvedere etc.

Not really.

Morpheus should know a lad that I know, ex RDF, who was commissioned from Sandhurst not all that long ago and he's a dirty Northsider. No private education for that lad.

DipStick McSwindler

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Poccington

feeney92 wrote: »

I went for Sandhurst but the Irish education standard is a lot higher than the UK applicants. I have to wiat to finish my Degree before I can apply again. I think its the fact that your more likely to get a combat tour with the BA which attracts young irish men

"The Irish move to the sound of guns like salmon to the sea" Ruyard Kipling

Nothing to do with the very limited recruitment in the DF then...

The Master of Disaster

For those of you who really are interested the exact figures for 2011 (well up to early December) were 499 out of 1,527 applicants passed the AOSB Main Board and were offered places at Sandhurst. So that's a pass rate of about 30% compared to 0.3% for the DF Cadetship (7000 applicants; 21 places AFAIK). You must, however, take into account that a lot of applicants for Sandhurst are turned down by their ACA or fail the AOSB Briefing before getting near the Main Board so there are many more than the official 1,527 listed.

In many ways all these stats are academic. You are measured to a standard, not a quota, so if you're good enough, you're good enough. Ultimately I think the higher pass rate for the BA in some ways reflects the fact that it's much bigger taking circa 650 cadets a year across 3 intakes versus 21 in 1 intake for the DF.

bwatson

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Sandhurst used to be easier to get into than the cadetschool. I remember reading (I can't find it so I can't link it) the numbers of applicants and the numbers that get a place in Sandhurst. The ratio suggests that getting into Sandhurst is very very easy compared to getting into the cadetschool.

But things are different now. Sandhurst is to be taking less officer cadets and the competition is much harder at the moment. Their intakes are getting smaller. So whoever said you can't use Sandhurst as a fall back if you don't get into the cadetschool is right. Its probably still easier to get into but a lot of people seem to think that the BA is something to fall back on. The BA may be easier to get into than the Irish Army but that doesn't mean any run of the mill person who got turned down from the Defence Force's cadet school can get into Sandhurst.

Getting into Sandhurst is also a competition just as much as the DF's cadetships is.

This isn't really true. It isn't a competition in the same way as the Irish cadetships are. Although there will certainly be cuts, 500 or so officer cadets will go to Sandhurst every year. Competent, enthusiastic and knowledgable candidates will still have every chance of going, although they may have to wait a year or two for their "ticket" to be valid. Thats the way it is for many I know and in fact it probably suits the majority. That isn't to say though, that it remains easy or used to be easy.

Saying that however, I don't think that it is all that worthwhile comparing the Cadetship competition to RMAS selection. Although they ultimately aim to find the best possible potential officers, the way that the systems work are incredibly different.

KickstartHeart

bwatson wrote: »

This isn't really true. It isn't a competition in the same way as the Irish cadetships are. Although there will certainly be cuts, 500 or so officer cadets will go to Sandhurst every year. Competent, enthusiastic and knowledgable candidates will still have every chance of going, although they may have to wait a year or two for their "ticket" to be valid. Thats the way it is for many I know and in fact it probably suits the majority. That isn't to say though, that it remains easy or used to be easy.

Saying that however, I don't think that it is all that worthwhile comparing the Cadetship competition to RMAS selection. Although they ultimately aim to find the best possible potential officers, the way that the systems work are incredibly different.

Ah I see. Thanks for correcting me/the info

KickstartHeart

Would it be fair to say over all, that the Defence Forces singles out those competent enough to officers, and towards the last stages of the 'competition' basically makes them compete to be in the top 21 or so, via interview to get a place in the class, and the BA basically singles out those that are competent enough to be officers, and if you are one of them, you'll probably get a place, because the BA doesn't need to make people compete as much?

eyescreamcone

I recently saw the BBC programme re the Sandhurst candidates training.
Interesting show.
The quality of some of the candidates was poor. Maybe the producer focused on the toff who looked like he got in because of his family ties. He made for good TV. Even if he didn't look like he'd make a good officer.
I wouldn't imagine he'd have done well in the IDF competition.

I suppose when you recruit hundreds yearly you will have a much greater mix of different characters than you would for the IDF comp.



Sorry no link to the series.

KickstartHeart

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I recently saw the BBC programme re the Sandhurst candidates training.
Interesting show.
The quality of some of the candidates was poor. Maybe the producer focused on the toff who looked like he got in because of his family ties. He made for good TV. Even if he didn't look like he'd make a good officer.
I wouldn't imagine he'd have done well in the IDF competition.

I suppose when you recruit hundreds yearly you will have a much greater mix of different characters than you would for the IDF comp.



Sorry no link to the series.

Its on youtube actually. If you just type in Sandhurst into the search bar it will come up. It was a good show, and you are right, some of the people in it were absolutely pathetic.

Delancey

Have to say I thought that Sandhurst show was very poor - very little insight into the training itself - overly focused on the few chosen individuals I thought.
Not sure someone thinking of applying to Sandhurst would be any the wiser for watching it .

eyescreamcone

Delancey wrote: »

Have to say I thought that Sandhurst show was very poor - very little insight into the training itself - overly focused on the few chosen individuals I thought.
Not sure someone thinking of applying to Sandhurst would be any the wiser for watching it .

It wasn't an ad for Sandhurst.
It was basically reality TV - made for entertainment - not information.
I'd like to have seen more about the selection phase but somebody deemed that to not be as exciting.

The Master of Disaster

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I'd like to have seen more about the selection phase but somebody deemed that to not be as exciting.

Why? It would just be lots of young people in suits sitting around for long periods of time interspersed with interviews, command tasks, planning excercises, essays etc. It would hardly make for exciting television. The general public might be interested in what goes on in Sandhurst but only PO's themselves would have any interest in the selection process. There are two videos, about 10 minutes each, on the BA website that show you what goes on at AOSB Briefing and AOSB Main Board.

Fishtits

Don't forget, getting a place in sandhurst is still very reliant on what school you went to. Look at the recent commissionings there, and of the irish, you won't find any who went to ballinasloe community college, or the christian brothers in mullingar....
It is still very much upper class, private school chaps. Clongowes, belvedere etc.

Utter Bullsh*t of the highest degree.

I spent more than ten years working with ex Sandhurst officers in various roles and I can state as a fact, most of them have nil airs & graces, and many of them came from terraced housing working class backgrounds - and they display excellence in a Corporals pragmatism.

As an ex PDF enlisted bloke it took a bit of getting used to...

I can't offer a comparison vs the Cadet College now, I left the PDF many years ago, but certainly back in the 80's and early 90's it was a closed shop - if you weren't connected or in the right circles you were stuffed.

Then they decided that promotion for offlcers would be on merit...

Cue dramatic music...

Still, back on topic, seriously if you want to experience "army" life, the Brits is probably your best bet. Paddy trains as best he can, his troops (regardless of rank) are rightly held in the highest regard. But, how many PDF Plt Sgts can call in Helo CAS?

Paddy should be proud of what we have achieved, but lets also realise that when it comes to other forces we're in the halpenny place in terms of our ability to project forces or defend.

Cheers

Delancey

There indeed was a time that Sandhurst very much favoured former pupils of schools like Harrow or Eton but that is long past - majority of cadets there have not gone to private schools ( which for some strange reaon Brits call ' Public Schools ' ) just listen to the accents and you'll hear relatively few ' upper class ' ones.

I have a nephew still in school who is seriously thinking of a Military career , I've advised him to look anywhere but Ireland , largely for the reason that since the foundation of the state it has been government policy to keep the Defence Forces chronically underfunded , under-equipped and saddled with outdated structures - quite why is probably a debate for another thread.

KickstartHeart

The Irish Defence Forces is of a very high standard internationally though.

Its easy to bash the Irish Defence Forces but as far as the standards go, they're quite good. Comparing the Defence Force of a small sovereign nation like Ireland to militaries designed to enforce the foreign policy of ex-colonial powers like the UK is rediculous.

A lot of Irish people seam to idolise the British military, when they don't realise that their own military is the kind of one that many other people around the world would idolise. We can talk all day about outdated structures and funding etc. etc. but take the Irish Defence Forces, and take every other military in the world, and compare funding, structures, training and efficiency, man for man, and the Irish military is not going to be ranked very low. It may be small, and may not be able to take on another country, but the quality is there. I even know a guy in the French Foreign Legion cavalry unit who asked me via facebook if I could advise him on how to get into the Irish Army, because he wanted better training.

When you go and compare the Irish military to the likes of the British military, its obviously going to look bad. Pretty much every military looks bad when you compare it to the brits. I'm not even in the military and annoys me to see the bashing the Irish military gets from Irish people.

If you join the Irish military, you will train hard and train at a high standard. You will be deployed to somewhere in the world on peace support operations. Many Irish soldiers who have been sent on these peace support operations have seen more action than the soldiers of a LOT of other countries. Ireland's military is not a war making machine. To advice someone not to join because of the fact that Ireland's DEFENCE force can't project itself to places in the world like the likes of the BA is completely wrong.

If someone wants a military career, then do not advise them away from the Irish military, because in the Irish military, they will get a real military career, and opertunities that far surpass those available in most other country's militaries. Maybe not in Europe and the western world, but definitely in the world. Just because they won't get to fight the taliban or be part of a body that can be sent to anywhere in the world in a few hours, does not mean he/she will be any less of a soldier than someone in some of the worlds best militaries.

The Irish military has changed a lot in the past couple of decades, and without doubt, regardless of funding, structures, combat experience, air support, or any of that stuff, the standard is there, and it is strong.

People shouldn't think, or influence other people to think that you won't be a soldier unless you see the kind of combat that the BA is facing in Afghanistan at the moment, or unless your'e part of a military with the projecting/defending capabilities that are better than Irelands. I'm not specifically addressing you Delancey. I'm trying to get my opinion on this issue accross in general.

The Irish Army may not be able to wage war on other nations, but the men and women that fill its ranks, are real soldiers, with significant operational experience, whether with or without combat, and they are of a well trained, and comparatively well equipped standard. Nothing wrong with the Irish Army. I know many people who have fought in Afghanistan with foreign flags on their shoulders who are dying to get into the PDF. And I know many people that serve/have served in foreign armies with great respect for the Irish military. Its a petty Irish people couldn't show that respect instead of always saying its not a 'real' army and all that crap and having a go at the capabilites of the Defence Forces.

BTW, Delancey I have referenced what you said in this post a bit but in general its not a go at you or a reply to your post. Its just a general rant about some of the attitudes towards the Irish military that I have come accross.

If you want to be a soldier, dont ever assume that if you join the Irish Defence Forces that you won't be one. Because you will be one, and you will be one that is much better trained and equipped than most soldiers in the world. There may be soldiers better equipped and better trained than you, in better funded more streamlined militaries, with better experiences than you, but that doesn't take from the fact that as a soldier in the Irish Defence Forces you will be a soldier. And a very good one at that.

DipStick McSwindler

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