VRT and Paddy Spec Cars!

StudentDad

Here I am tormenting myself I suppose. Looking at various car manufacturer websites and comparing and contrasting with what is on offer in the UK.

It's bloody sickening! Did a bit of a compare and contrast with the new ford focus just for the devilment. The ford.ie site looks like it's on a diet! Don't need that engine! or those styling options!

Was considering buying a new car but once again when I see the bloody difference between the markets my money is staying in my pocket!

SD

Anan1

Surely you can order a car here with the options you want?

StudentDad

Anan1 wrote: »

Surely you can order a car here with the options you want?

Of course I can. However, the car I want is 'optional' here in VRT Paddy Land! and costs even more money! If there was no VRT I could go up north buy the car I want with more kit as standard and not have to deal with the retarded little protectionist bubble that is the car market in the republic.

I compared the focus as available here and in the UK. Even allowing for currency variation you simply get a better equipped car in the UK market for the same money spent here!

It is sickening! I am currently on the lookout for a new car but with the current VRT system in place that effectively crucifies new car buyers here in the republic, I won't be buying my new car here.

SD

MuppetCheck

Ford specs are pretty similar between here and the UK. Which model/options are you looking for?

StudentDad

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Ford specs are pretty similar between here and the UK. Which model/options are you looking for?

Pretty similar isn't good enough. The market here is separated away from the rest of Europe due to VRT. The EU is going to take Ireland to court if it doesn't change the law.

If I go to my local car showroom - of whatever brand of car - as far as I am concerned I am a European and I expect to pay a European price. Not a 'local' price because of some pseudo nationalistic crap about national borders and 'local' market conditions.

SD

Anan1

StudentDad wrote: »

Of course I can. However, the car I want is 'optional' here in VRT Paddy Land! and costs even more money! If there was no VRT I could go up north buy the car I want with more kit as standard and not have to deal with the retarded little protectionist bubble that is the car market in the republic.

I compared the focus as available here and in the UK. Even allowing for currency variation you simply get a better equipped car in the UK market for the same money spent here!

It is sickening! I am currently on the lookout for a new car but with the current VRT system in place that effectively crucifies new car buyers here in the republic, I won't be buying my new car here.

SD

So your issue is with VRT, not specification?

MuppetCheck

StudentDad wrote: »

Pretty similar isn't good enough. The market here is separated away from the rest of Europe due to VRT. The EU is going to take Ireland to court if it doesn't change the law.

If I go to my local car showroom - of whatever brand of car - as far as I am concerned I am a European and I expect to pay a European price. Not a 'local' price because of some pseudo nationalistic crap about national borders and 'local' market conditions.

SD

What has VRT to do with the specification of the vehicle?

What are the specification differences you speak of?

StudentDad

Anan1 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Of course I can. However, the car I want is 'optional' here in VRT Paddy Land! and costs even more money! If there was no VRT I could go up north buy the car I want with more kit as standard and not have to deal with the retarded little protectionist bubble that is the car market in the republic.

I compared the focus as available here and in the UK. Even allowing for currency variation you simply get a better equipped car in the UK market for the same money spent here!

It is sickening! I am currently on the lookout for a new car but with the current VRT system in place that effectively crucifies new car buyers here in the republic, I won't be buying my new car here.

SD

So your issue is with VRT, not specification?

Both - in an effort to keep down cost due to insane taxes the dealers here are forced to offer a product that does not match the likes of UK etc. We are European, it should be an open market, VRT prevents this.

SD

StudentDad

OSI wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Pretty similar isn't good enough. The market here is separated away from the rest of Europe due to VRT. The EU is going to take Ireland to court if it doesn't change the law.

If I go to my local car showroom - of whatever brand of car - as far as I am concerned I am a European and I expect to pay a European price. Not a 'local' price because of some pseudo nationalistic crap about national borders and 'local' market conditions.

SD

They've taken neither Ireland or the Netherlands to court over these taxes in the last 20 years, so I don't see why they would start now. Europe does not have control over our taxes yet, and I'm happy for it to stay that way.

Well with a bit of luck they will take us to court - [url]HTTP://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0126/cars-business.html[/url]

SD

Eric Cartman

VRT is not going away, but its true about spec. VW are mad ones for not including options, most car dealers even look at you funny when you ask to get a copy of the options brochure.

Ive even had dealers lie to me saying the model they sold was the full spec or denying an option doesnt exist.

Chriscl1

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Ford specs are pretty similar between here and the UK. Which model/options are you looking for?

i was in the uk in march and spotted loads of titanium model mondeo's, smaxes and galaxies and all were very very nice looking machines, especially a few mondeo estate titanium x's that were about. ive only ever seen one smax titanium here. why is this, are they too expensive due to vrt on extras or are they a special order in ireland?

StudentDad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

VRT is not going away, but its true about spec. VW are mad ones for not including options, most car dealers even look at you funny when you ask to get a copy of the options brochure.

Ive even had dealers lie to me saying the model they sold was the full spec or denying an option doesnt exist.

What really pisses me off is that if you do decide to import a car from the UK or somewhere else in the Union the VRT charged on the car based on whatever arbitrary number pulled out of Revenues Left Armpit is as far as I can see designed not only to discourage anyone from importing a car from another member state but also to discourage anyone from importing a car that is a little bit different or equipped to a better level than anything else on the road.

It's almost a kind of begrudgery. The sooner we have a proper EU-wide tax system the better. I've gone to visit friends in the UK over the years and they'll have a fairly standard - for the UK - car and not only is it cheaper than what's available over here it just has more kit as standard. Couple that with lower overall road tax and it makes me wonder what's the bloody point in buying a car in the republic at all?

Between the depreciation, the initial tax outlay and the lousy specs compared to other member states, is it any wonder that car sales are dropping like a stone?

SD

StudentDad

Chriscl1 wrote: »

i was in the uk in march and spotted loads of titanium model mondeo's, smaxes and galaxies and all were very very nice looking machines, especially a few mondeo estate titanium x's that were about. ive only ever seen one smax titanium here. why is this, are they too expensive due to vrt on extras or are they a special order in ireland?

It's a mystery - up there with the limited range of engines and the fact that for alot of makes of car - if you want a particular model you have no choice but to hop over to the UK and buy it there and import it - I swear it's like there is a civil servant in Dublin Castle whose only job is to 'remove' fun from Irish life. 'Oh that car is too nice, can't have that here in Ireland, better tax that out of existence.'

SD

Anan1

StudentDad wrote: »

Both - in an effort to keep down cost due to insane taxes the dealers here are forced to offer a product that does not match the likes of UK etc.

Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs?

StudentDad wrote: »

We are European, it should be an open market, VRT prevents this.

SD

We are an open market, VRT is a registration tax. Are you under the impression that VRT is unique to Ireland? Out of interest, what's the VRT rate on the Focus you were considering?

MuppetCheck

Chriscl1 wrote: »

i was in the uk in march and spotted loads of titanium model mondeo's, smaxes and galaxies and all were very very nice looking machines, especially a few mondeo estate titanium x's that were about. ive only ever seen one smax titanium here. why is this, are they too expensive due to vrt on extras or are they a special order in ireland?

Fairly common here, but rarer than the mainstream models. It takes a bit of searching to find the right one though;)

challengemaster

Anan1 wrote: »

Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs?

Not for a higher cost in the first place

We are an open market, VRT is a registration tax. Are you under the impression that VRT is unique to Ireland? Out of interest, what's the VRT rate on the Focus you were considering?

VRT is a loophole import tax and everyone knows it tbh. It may not be unique to Ireland but just because we're not the only ones doing it, doesn't make it cool or fair either.

An actual registration tax as implied by the name would be a flat rate, covering administration costs associated with registering a car, not based on the vehicles current OMSP, emissions and spec list

StudentDad

Anan1 wrote: »

Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs?

Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs? - Translation - Isn't it better to have a bog standard rubbish car that is bloody expensive to begin with and then to make it worth owning the buyer has to buy everything else as an expensive extra?

VRT is a total distortion of the market and should be abolished.

SD

Anan1

StudentDad wrote: »

Isn't it better for the consumer to have lower standard specs and then build the car that suits their needs? - Translation - Isn't it better to have a bog standard rubbish car that is bloody expensive to begin with and then to make it worth owning the buyer has to buy everything else as an expensive extra?

You're conflating two separate issues, price and specification.

StudentDad wrote: »

VRT is a total distortion of the market and should be abolished.

SD

How would you make up for the lost revenue?

StudentDad

Anan1 wrote: »

How would you make up for the lost revenue?

A cut in TD's salaries perhaps? Maybe running the country properly for a change? Billions of EC funding that's been given to us over the years that seems to have vanished down a bloody big hole. Where did that money go? Junkets and parties perhaps?


SD

Soarer

Anan1 wrote: »

How would you make up for the lost revenue?

Don't think they're losing too much revenue in this day and age.

As for alternatives, what about a flat fee everytime the ownership of the car changes. So you sell your car, and you send the logbook to Shannon with a cheque for €150.
Kinda like what they're trying to do swapping Stamp Duty with a property tax.

Tea 1000

StudentDad wrote: »

What really pisses me off is that if you do decide to import a car from the UK or somewhere else in the Union the VRT charged on the car based on whatever arbitrary number pulled out of Revenues Left Armpit is as far as I can see designed not only to discourage anyone from importing a car from another member state but also to discourage anyone from importing a car that is a little bit different or equipped to a better level than anything else on the road.

It's almost a kind of begrudgery. The sooner we have a proper EU-wide tax system the better. I've gone to visit friends in the UK over the years and they'll have a fairly standard - for the UK - car and not only is it cheaper than what's available over here it just has more kit as standard. Couple that with lower overall road tax and it makes me wonder what's the bloody point in buying a car in the republic at all?

Between the depreciation, the initial tax outlay and the lousy specs compared to other member states, is it any wonder that car sales are dropping like a stone?

SD

Ya, I really can't wait to be out of a job... I can console myself that cars are cheaper, but won't be able to afford them!!
Can you specify what's the difference between a UK Focus and an Irish one? As far as I can see, the base level Focus 1.6 is the same crap spec in both countries.

challengemaster

Anan1 wrote: »

How would you make up for the lost revenue?

The reason cars are more expensive over here in the first place is VRT, yes?

Take that away, you can lower the selling price for better spec'd cars, and you'll get more buyers. People also won't outsource cars as much, therefore more money stays in the country.

Same as with petrol prices - if you drop the price, people won't give as much of a damn how much they spend on petrol, rather than penny pinching when the price is very high, result = people drive more = people buy more petrol = more revenue.

It'll even itself out in the long run, tbh.

Our man in Havana

Soarer wrote: »

Don't think they're losing too much revenue in this day and age.

As for alternatives, what about a flat fee everytime the ownership of the car changes. So you sell your car, and you send the logbook to Shannon with a cheque for €150.
Kinda like what they're trying to do swapping Stamp Duty with a property tax.

Would the last person leaving the country please turn off the light.

Anan1

StudentDad wrote: »

A cut in TD's salaries perhaps? Maybe running the country properly for a change? Billions of EC funding that's been given to us over the years that seems to have vanished down a bloody big hole. Where did that money go? Junkets and parties perhaps?


SD

None of the above has anything to do with VRT. If you reduce taxes then you have to cut services.

challengemaster wrote: »

The reason cars are more expensive over here in the first place is VRT, yes?

Take that away, you can lower the selling price for better spec'd cars, and you'll get more buyers.

Maybe. Or maybe, as happened in the UK for years, importers and dealers will absorb the difference. When we bought a new Alfa 156 in 1998, it was cheaper here including 25% VRT than in the UK. Better specified, too.;)

challengemaster wrote: »

People also won't outsource cars as much, therefore more money stays in the country.

Did you forget that new cars are imported too?

challengemaster

Anan1 wrote: »

Did you forget that new cars are imported too?

Sort of meant down the line, as you'd have a plethora of non-paddy spec cars in the country at decent prices, so there'd be none of the "if you want a decent spec go to the UK and import"

Anan1

challengemaster wrote: »

Sort of meant down the line, as you'd have a plethora of non-paddy spec cars in the country at decent prices, so there'd be none of the "if you want a decent spec go to the UK and import"

I think this 'paddy spec' thing has more to do with Irish priorities than VRT. How is it that we can never afford xenons, heated seats, or decent audio and yet miraculously manage to find the cash for big wheels, sport packs and metallic paint?

StudentDad

Anan1 wrote: »

challengemaster wrote: »

Sort of meant down the line, as you'd have a plethora of non-paddy spec cars in the country at decent prices, so there'd be none of the "if you want a decent spec go to the UK and import"

I think this 'paddy spec' thing has more to do with Irish priorities than VRT. How is it that we can never afford xenons, heated seats, or decent audio and yet miraculously manage to find the cash for big wheels, sport packs and metallic paint?

Oh get off the stage, the dog in the street knows that if this import tax was abolished the bubble that is the Irish car market would pop like a party balloon and Irish citizens would have access to the UK market, unfettered. God forbid that would happen!

SD

positron

Apologies if this is a silly question - but what / who is the VRT protecting? There is absolutely no automobile manufacturing industry in Ireland, which is the type of thing you would normally 'protect' with 'import duties'?

India for instance, charges 105% import duty on all cars built outside India, and naturally all big players have set up factories in India now, and with that comes thousands of jobs and general economic activity and prosperity, and lately manufacturing facilities in India is starting to become central facilities for these companies for South East Asia region.

If VRT was removed, who would actually lost out other than a few car dealers? In fact, don't they stand to gain - cheaper cars, more sales?

Anan1

StudentDad wrote: »

Oh get off the stage, the dog in the street knows that if this import tax was abolished the bubble that is the Irish car market would pop like a party balloon and Irish citizens would have access to the UK market, unfettered. God forbid that would happen!

SD

What does this even mean?:)

pcardin

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Fairly common here, but rarer than the mainstream models. It takes a bit of searching to find the right one though;)

I love your sentence. So afterall it isn't so fairly common here?

Eric Cartman

StudentDad wrote: »

What really pisses me off is that if you do decide to import a car from the UK or somewhere else in the Union the VRT charged on the car based on whatever arbitrary number pulled out of Revenues Left Armpit is as far as I can see designed not only to discourage anyone from importing a car from another member state but also to discourage anyone from importing a car that is a little bit different or equipped to a better level than anything else on the road.

It's almost a kind of begrudgery. The sooner we have a proper EU-wide tax system the better. I've gone to visit friends in the UK over the years and they'll have a fairly standard - for the UK - car and not only is it cheaper than what's available over here it just has more kit as standard. Couple that with lower overall road tax and it makes me wonder what's the bloody point in buying a car in the republic at all?

Between the depreciation, the initial tax outlay and the lousy specs compared to other member states, is it any wonder that car sales are dropping like a stone?

SD

the argument used to be 'well they pay council tax and their wages are lower' considering how its going, give it 2 years and that argument will be null

corktina

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Ford specs are pretty similar between here and the UK. Which model/options are you looking for?

i don't think thats true. A few years ago I bought a Focus Ghioa nd all it had exrtra on it were a couple of bits of chrome. I replaced it with a Mondeo and they couldn't even supply a Ghia. Not only that they had no idea what an "X pack" was.

Historically Ford specs here are very poor compared with the UK. Probably the same with other manufacturers. (Ironically though a Mk2 Cortina 1600E was a better spec here than in the UK.)Ironic because it wasn't built in Cork at all...imported from Dagenham))

Chriscl1

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Fairly common here, but rarer than the mainstream models. It takes a bit of searching to find the right one though;)

What you talkin bout willis!?!?!

StudentDad

Anan1 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Oh get off the stage, the dog in the street knows that if this import tax was abolished the bubble that is the Irish car market would pop like a party balloon and Irish citizens would have access to the UK market, unfettered. God forbid that would happen!

SD

What does this even mean?:)

It means that for most people, between the tax, VRT, VAT, stamp duty, etc arbitrary oh your car has a strange non standard extra tax, People are locked into a bubble market that is wholly unfair and designed to screw Irish citizens.

SD

Anan1

StudentDad wrote: »

It means that for most people, between the tax, VRT, VAT, stamp duty, etc arbitrary oh your car has a strange non standard extra tax, People are locked into a bubble market that is wholly unfair and designed to screw Irish citizens.

SD

What a fluid rant - you start with car specifications, move through VRT and now you're on to stamp duty. What's a bubble market?:)

Drummerboy08

Boring, same old un-informed started-as-a-rant-about-spec-turned-into-VRT-rant-thread.

We've had these threads before, they go around in the same circles.

- VRT is illegal
- The EU is running Ireland
- The UK market is a bajillion times better that Ireland
- UK cars are better
- blah blah blah

If you don't like VRT, don't buy a car. Otherwise bite the bullet cos guess what? It ain't going away. In fact it's probably gonna get worse.

BTW OP, you still haven't told us what model Focus you are looking at, and what the differences are between the Irish and UK model.

Guy:Incognito

StudentDad wrote: »

Oh get off the stage, the dog in the street knows that if this import tax was abolished the bubble that is the Irish car market would pop like a party balloon and Irish citizens would have access to the UK market, unfettered. God forbid that would happen!

SD

IF there was no VRT and cars were now the same price and spec as the UK, why would people be going to the UK for cars exactly?

challengemaster

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

IF there was no VRT and cars were now the same price and spec as the UK, why would people be going to the UK for cars exactly?

Certainly the used car market opens up majorly.

Guy:Incognito

challengemaster wrote: »

Certainly the used car market opens up majorly.

Is the thread not about new cars though?

The bulk of used imports from the UK would be up to about 15 years old max I'd say so within 10-15 years that practice would stop too.

challengemaster

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Is the thread not about new cars though?

The bulk of used imports from the UK would be up to about 15 years old max I'd say so within 10-15 years that practice would stop too.

Exactly, so why doesn't it make sense?

Guy:Incognito

challengemaster wrote: »

Exactly, so why doesn't it make sense?

To get rid of it? Lost revenue.

The country is currently running something like a €15b deficit. Thats for day to day running, nothing to do with the banks (rabble rabble rabble).

Money coming in is always better than no money coming in.

challengemaster

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

To get rid of it? Lost revenue.

The country is currently running something like a €15b deficit. Thats for day to day running, nothing to do with the banks (rabble rabble rabble).

Money coming in is always better than no money coming in.

This whole idea of lost revenue is negligible though - it's something that will level itself out in the long run with more people buying new cars, etc.

StudentDad

challengemaster wrote: »

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

To get rid of it? Lost revenue.

The country is currently running something like a €15b deficit. Thats for day to day running, nothing to do with the banks (rabble rabble rabble).

Money coming in is always better than no money coming in.

This whole idea of lost revenue is negligible though - it's something that will level itself out in the long run with more people buying new cars, etc.

This all boils down to greed - on the part of govt. who want cash - on the part of importers who decide what cars come into the country - this country joined the EEC - not the Cash for Favours Club - we should have access to the wider European market for everything including cars as citizens of the EU and not get screwed by our national govt. because we deign to spend outside their jurisdiction. We are people not Economic Units

At the end of the day it seems to point to the fact that govt. and other interest groups want to control the flow of cars into this country and milk the indigenous driver for all he's worth!

Without VRT and other taxes we would be free to shop anywhere in the EU for our cars, the UK is good because they drive on the same side as us.

SD

colm_mcm

So do you reckon the distributors make more margin on a basic model than a high spec model?

They sell what people will buy. simple as that.

The VRT would have to be paid either way, so if the Irish distributors are ripping people off, then go to the UK and get your high spec yoke.

Are you actually in the market for a new car?

StudentDad

colm_mcm wrote: »

So do you reckon the distributors make more margin on a basic model than a high spec model?

They sell what people will buy. simple as that.

Th.e VRT would have to be paid either way, so if the Irish distributors are ripping people off, then go to the UK and get your high spec yoke.

Are you actually in the market for a new car?

I am, but I'm waiting to see what the govt. does in the next budget.

SD

Del2005

2nd hand car prices on main land Europe are way higher than ours, yet only a few have high VRT like charges.

Another problem is that Irish people are more interested in the plate than the car, just look at the D threads, so they want a cheap new car every few years than buy a decent motor to keep.

Ask the average Paddy what they drive and the answer will usually be a Turbo Diesel, cause the Motor Tax is low. The fact that the car is totally unsuitable for their needs can't be beaten into their heads.

The dealers,and the cars they sell, are a result of the buyers not the just taxes

Del2005

StudentDad wrote: »

I am, but I'm waiting to see what the govt. does in the next budget.

SD

I'd buy now. There is no way in hell any taxes are coming down and the farcical CO2 rates are heading way up.

Leonard Hofstadter

colm_mcm wrote: »

So do you reckon the distributors make more margin on a basic model than a high spec model?

They sell what people will buy. simple as that.

The VRT would have to be paid either way, so if the Irish distributors are ripping people off, then go to the UK and get your high spec yoke.

Are you actually in the market for a new car?

Exactly, you only have to look at BMW as a case in point to see the difference in priorities.

Irish and UK spec cars have been identical since 2004, so the OP can't play the 'Irish spec cars are worse' card here. If anything ours have a better spec because ours have kph clocks.

In the UK the 320d is the best selling model, over 50% of 3 series sold there are 320ds. In backward old Ireland they expect 75% of 3 series buyers to go for the poverty spec 316ds with that ultra powerful 114 bhp engine:rolleyes:.

We get $h!t spec cars with rubbish low powered engines because that's all we buy!

Carawaystick

I think if people wanted to fight vet they'd have to challenge the market revenue use for setting their omsp; revenue basically use only britain and Ireland, we are in a common market, i'd look at prices in Romania and Estonia.

Of the last two cars I bought, one I priced in england, and after adding vrt/vat it was EUR50 cheaper here ( an anomoly, the latest model is almost 10k dearer than the model I bought. in 2008)

The other car I priced in Austria ( I found a link) it would have been 430 euros cheaper to buy it there, but the scrap page deal here by dealers over and above the vet reduction and the cost of getting to and from Austria meant we bought here.

I'd have an issue with the vet rate on new cars, it doesn't seem to be reduced for scrap page schemes or even driving a hard bargain with a dealer, but set for a model by the distributer and revenue.

Also the whole VAT thing is another area to attack. If I buy a car in Newry and pay vat in Down, I'm supposed to pay vat again along with vrt here...

colm_mcm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I think if people wanted to fight vet they'd have to challenge the market revenue use for setting their omsp; revenue basically use only britain and Ireland,

they don't use UK prices to determine OMSP, just Irish.

Del2005

Carawaystick wrote: »

I think if people wanted to fight vet they'd have to challenge the market revenue use for setting their omsp; revenue basically use only britain and Ireland, we are in a common market, i'd look at prices in Romania and Estonia.

Of the last two cars I bought, one I priced in england, and after adding vrt/vat it was EUR50 cheaper here ( an anomoly, the latest model is almost 10k dearer than the model I bought. in 2008)

The other car I priced in Austria ( I found a link) it would have been 430 euros cheaper to buy it there, but the scrap page deal here by dealers over and above the vet reduction and the cost of getting to and from Austria meant we bought here.

I'd have an issue with the vet rate on new cars, it doesn't seem to be reduced for scrap page schemes or even driving a hard bargain with a dealer, but set for a model by the distributer and revenue.

Also the whole VAT thing is another area to attack. If I buy a car in Newry and pay vat in Down, I'm supposed to pay vat again along with vrt here...

You only pay VAT once in the EU, there's a form you fill in and give to the dealer to buy VAT free or you can reclaim it from the country of purchase.

The scrapeage scheme here was an expensive farce as we don't have a motor industry to protect, even the UK and US schemes mainly benefited South East Asia, and the garages are struggling even more now.