Reaping knee in MMA amateur matches

Jason McCabe

I was at a show recently and was informed at rules meeting that reaping the knee was not allowed. I was also informed that only Achilles locks and knee bars are allowed. No toe holds, calf crush etc....


What is the story here?? It was the first I had heard of it.

As far as I was aware only heel hooks were banned at amateur.

pablohoney87

What show? I've attempted toe holds at c class and in the league and received no warning from the referee?

Jason McCabe

pablohoney87 wrote: »

What show? I've attempted toe holds at c class and in the league and received no warning from the referee?

I don't want to start dissing any shows or the ref that said it. Not my intention

Just want to get this clarified because to me this was entirely incorrect and was mixing BJJ with MMA rules

SDTimeout

Personally I think it's silly that you're willing to bring this up on a forum and not name the promotion that's working by these rules.

Jason McCabe

Clarification of the rules is all I seek not a slandering match

pablohoney87

Probably best getting Dave or peter in on this thread if its clarification is needed then.
but its never been mentioned at any rules meeting I've been to.

Jason McCabe

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Probably best getting Dave or peter in on this thread if its clarification is needed then.
but its never been mentioned at any rules meeting I've been to.

What about at junior level too?

What allowed not allowed???

cowzerp

Jason McCabe wrote: »

What about at junior level too?

What allowed not allowed???

Same here, i've been at some that say knee bars and calf crushes are ok and others that say no kneebars, personally if you can arm bar why not knee bar-an arm is far weaker and easier to damage so logic tells me it should be fine.

I'm sure when we discussed the Rules the only leg locks left out at Amateur where twisting knee locks or heel hooks.

so therefore scissor locks fine, knee bars fine, calf crush fine and straight toe holds fine.

Niall0

cowzerp wrote: »

Jason McCabe wrote: »

What about at junior level too?

What allowed not allowed???

Same here, i've been at some that say knee bars and calf crushes are ok and others that say no kneebars, personally if you can arm bar why not knee bar-an arm is far weaker and easier to damage so logic tells me it should be fine.

I'm sure when we discussed the Rules the only leg locks left out at Amateur where twisting knee locks or heel hooks.

so therefore scissor locks fine, knee bars fine, calf crush fine and straight toe holds fine.

I was looking Into this recently as I was checking leg lock rules for jiu jitsu comps, knee bars are banned till brown belt under the ibjjf rules. I would have said the same as you with regards knee bars but from what I've read the logic used is that the damage caused is more severe from a knee bar gone bad than from an armbar. I guess if the competitors are less experienced someone on the receiving end of a leg lock/knee reap could cause themselves a lot of damage if they try to muscle out and tear the crap out of their knee.

Rob01

I'm not an expert by any means but I think there is to be a lot more damage capable of been done to the knee as opposed to the arm before the person even knows it is time to submit.

I would imagine the knee is more complex than the arm with cartilage, medial ligament, lateral ligament, PCL, ACL etc.

Maybe the effects of seriously damaging any of these would leave an athlete sidelined for a longer period then damaging parts of the arm and perhaps this is why it is not allowed/should not be allowed at amateur matches?

SBG Ireland

the only hold that should be illegal at Amateur should be the heelhook. as for any joint lock at amateur (they can all do damage!) the MO for the ref should be the same, he should have the authority to stop the fight when he sees that its fully on. at Pro he should not interfer and all subs are good.

(can we please just say Pro and Amateur...new c, old c, d, e, are gone!)

as for juniors. i dont think they should be fighting mma so i'm wrong person to comment!

Jason McCabe

SBG Ireland wrote: »

the only hold that should be illegal at Amateur should be the heelhook. as for any joint lock at amateur (they can all do damage!) the MO for the ref should be the same, he should have the authority to stop the fight when he sees that its fully on. at Pro he should not interfer and all subs are good.
D

Full agreement with this

The further we get from pro rules the worse the system I believe. Elbows and heel hooks I understand are just too damaging for an amateur

Hanley

SBG Ireland wrote: »

the only hold that should be illegal at Amateur should be the heelhook. as for any joint lock at amateur (they can all do damage!) the MO for the ref should be the same, he should have the authority to stop the fight when he sees that its fully on. at Pro he should not interfer and all subs are good.

(can we please just say Pro and Amateur...new c, old c, d, e, are gone!)

as for juniors. i dont think they should be fighting mma so i'm wrong person to comment!

Great post.

cowzerp

SBG Ireland wrote: »

as for juniors. i dont think they should be fighting mma so i'm wrong person to comment!

I respect your opinion and know it comes from good intentions

But I do disagree with it-like any sport competing helps you get better and learn the sport, In fairness when the kids compete it is all about safety 1st and the ref's are extra cautious and all coaches are aware that the fights will be stopped if an arm is extended etc

as far as the stand up goes there is nothing that does not happen in other striking arts in competition from 10 years up such as Boxing, Kick boxing, TKD etc

and without GnP it is more or less just grappling with body punches

I'm a big fan and once the kids are looked after then I see it as a great chance to learn.

Jason McCabe

Yeah I agree with Paul

Coaches and promoters just need to be cautious.

IMO we need kids and teens competing from about 13 or 14 upwards to prepare themselves for the big stage


Back to rules. What leglocks are teens allowed on shows??

cowzerp

Jason McCabe wrote: »

Yeah I agree with Paul

Coaches and promoters just need to be cautious.

IMO we need kids and teens competing from about 13 or 14 upwards to prepare themselves for the big stage


Back to rules. What leglocks are teens allowed on shows??

I went back over the conversation on rules and only heel hooks where disallowed in the end.

Jason McCabe

Ok so teens are allowed kneebars, toeholds, calf crush etc

We train them in the club. Don't want to be wasting their time with techniques they can't use

cowzerp

Jason McCabe wrote: »

Ok so teens are allowed kneebars, toeholds, calf crush etc

We train them in the club. Don't want to be wasting their time with techniques they can't use

That was the end conclusion.

weemate

reaping the knee is a twisting joint lock Jason and as such I wont allow them in a junior match up....in saying that,I wont be reffing anymore junior shows.the show in question was one ,i assume,that I reffed recently and was told at the last minute that I had to use old c class rules for all the fights bar one I think.twisting joint locks have never been allowed in amature rules.Also,if it is myself you are referring to,at no stage did I mention calf crush or toe holds.
knee bars are allowed in c class as are foot holds [individual toe holds are not allowed ] neck cranks,crucifix,spinal attacks of any kind are all banned.
you have my email/phone number [ as well as Dave's!!!] if you have an issue with any of my officiating.

cowzerp

weemate wrote: »

reaping the knee is a twisting joint lock Jason and as such I wont allow them in a junior match up....

Any twisting knee movement is out, heel hook is obviously the main 1 but the ref's do stress that no twisting knee locks are allowed-if defended wrong they are just too risky and at that age not worth it, calf crush for example is sore but causes little damage so no big deal.

Live to fight another day an all that..

Barry.Oglesby

I'll chime in here ("as per fvckin usual" I hear you sigh) and state that I think the whole issue of teenage match ups needs to be very carefully looked at. I've officiated as a judge at quite a few now and I just don't see the point, there are plenty of competitive outlets from grappling to Muay Thai, and I think you're going to have a very hard time explaining to a parent how a knee reap or toe hold that's banned for teenagers in BJJ competition has damaged their son's knee to the point of expensive surgery. Between that, the small gloves, and the oft mentioned alcohol sales on site I don't think these matches are safe or proper.

Anyway, chime chime. Oar in. Row row.

cowzerp

"would somebody think of the children"

Grappling they can get hurt, thai they can get hurt-just don't do anything

Football way more hurt than all

SBG Ireland

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I've officiated as a judge at quite a few now and I just don't see the point.

ticket sales?

Barry.Oglesby

SBG Ireland wrote: »

ticket sales?

I wouldn't be that cynical but I yes it does play a part. That's not to say that coaches aren't genuinely looking to match up their teens for some greater good either.

"would somebody think of the children"

Okay I will!

Grappling they can get hurt, thai they can get hurt-just don't do anything

Yes, kids can get hurt playing football on the green or climbing walls or anything. They can get hurt fighting Muay Thai with 14oz gloves, head guards, belly pads, heavy shin guards too. They can get hurt in BJJ but clearly defined rules prevent the most dangerous and hazardous submissions and takedowns/slams at teenage level.

The big difference is something we've disagreed on before- no one in the above scenarios are paying €25-€35 per ticket to be entertained. MMA is sport, but at the paying customer level, it's entertainment. You have a duty of care to minors if you either put on a match up, or put a child forward for a match up. Placing them in an environment where alcohol is being sold, with unclear rules, and limited safety equipment is to me, irresponsible.

I just don't see why kids can't do some San Shou or Muay Thai, some BJJ, some wrestling or some boxing until they're 17, and then worry about stepping into the cage after that.

I know people disagree with me here and that to some I sound like Mol Flanders, but think on this for a minute- the two most senior referees in the country will no longer officiate at teen match ups. These are the guys with no emotional attachment to the fighters involved, who have refereed thousands of matches, and whom professionals trust with their safety, and based on their experience, they won't officiate at a teen match.

cowzerp

SBG Ireland wrote: »

ticket sales?

Any teens on the rumble never bring in sales, usually the father will go and that's it-I put them on for experience and don't see the point training a sport if you can't compete in it.

Believe it or not even though I have a different view of it than you mine is equally as well meaning.

Profit at jr level is not there, only kid I knew that sold tickets was James Gallagher on cc.

SBG Ireland

cowzerp wrote: »

Profit at jr level is not there, only kid I knew that sold tickets was James Gallagher on cc.

well its unlikely you know how many tickets every junior sold on every show in ireland right?
as for james you might've noticed that since he came under the SBG banner he's no longer fighting mma

cowzerp

SBG Ireland wrote: »

well its unlikely you know how many tickets every junior sold on every show in ireland right?
as for james you might've noticed that since he came under the SBG banner he's no longer fighting mma

I'm speaking from my shows view and I would put on a fair few teens matches as im a big fan and believe in them-they sell to there parents usually, if any at all

It's not my business what your systems are, your right to do what you feel is right

In most sports your ready to go pro at 17, this would not be possible if you have never took part in the sport you train, anyway as I said we simply have different views on it.

Jason McCabe

I respect ur opinion John but don't agree

What other sports stop kids from participating?

I've seen more serious injuries in judo than I've seen in MMA

Just seems odd to me for one of the top coaches in the country to figure it's too rough for teens

SBG Ireland

Jason McCabe wrote: »

What other sports stop kids from participating?

what other sports have kids
- fighting in the evening in front of drunk adults
- where the goal is to KO your opponent or cause enough damage so he cant continue
- with very limited protection
- where a promoter can earn a few hundred of kids fighting

Jason McCabe wrote: »

I've seen more serious injuries in judo than I've seen in MMA

potential for injury really isnt the point. i think gymnastics, rugby, GAA, judo etc are all excellent for kids to play...all have potential for injury. however the setting/goals of these sports are very different.

Jason McCabe wrote: »

Just seems odd to me for one of the top coaches in the country to figure it's too rough for teens

well as i pointed out its nothing to do with 'being rough'.
i've pointed out a few times here already my problem with 2 13/14yr olds lumping the heads off each other in front of screaming drunk adults. i find it odd it's that difficult to follow.
but hey it doesnt effect me so i dont really care, i dont promote and i dont allow my kids fight so not gonna come back on me if something goes wrong.

El Guapo!

SBG Ireland wrote: »

well as i pointed out its nothing to do with 'being rough'.
i've pointed out a few times here already my problem with 2 13/14yr olds lumping the heads off each other in front of screaming drunk adults. i find it odd it's that difficult to follow.
but hey it doesnt effect me so i dont really care, i dont promote and i dont allow my kids fight so not gonna come back on me if something goes wrong.

What if an all teen event was held in a club and there was no drink being sold on the night. Would you be against that too? Is it just the alcohol fuelled environment that you don't like, or is it the fact that kids are involved full stop?
What about amateur boxing? Is that something you don't like aswell? I boxed when I was a kid and there was always drink sold but it never seemed like a bad environment and everybody went away having had a good night.
I'm not being smart by the way, I'm just genuinely curious.

SBG Ireland

Dean09 wrote: »

What if an all teen event was held in a club and there was no drink being sold on the night. Would you be against that too?

if i remember correctly barry held something like this with head guards etc. sunday afternoon in a gym, i think this is a better approach. i think MoW are doing something like this at their next show? i think they should have to wear boxing gloves too.

Dean09 wrote: »

What about amateur boxing? Is that something you don't like aswell?

i've nothing against amateur boxing for juniors. i wont claim to know much about it, paul would be the man to ask on this, but afaik they wear more protection head gear, big gloves and the refs really know what they are doing with strict rule sets.

Dean09 wrote: »

I'm not being smart by the way, I'm just genuinely curious.

you are not coming across as being smart

Barry.Oglesby

I did have something like that and the plan was to make it a regular thing, 3/4 times a year. But around that time the plethora of shows began and to be frank, when a club is committed to putting lads on big shows and you're offering them the chance to fight in a club on a Sunday, you just can't compete.

I would also point out that Jason and Paul were big supporters of that too.

cowzerp

SBG Ireland wrote: »

i wont claim to know much about it, paul would be the man to ask on this,
big gloves and the refs really know what they are doing with strict rule sets.

Safety is paramount in amateur boxing, the gloves are 10oz the same as pro boxing-gloves in pro are very hard though compared to amateur gloves.

I'd say the Mma spar gloves are the equivalent of 10oz amateur gloves-much of the 10oz is in the wrist back of globe etc, knuckle area would not be much different.

Kieran81

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I did have something like that and the plan was to make it a regular thing, 3/4 times a year. But around that time the plethora of shows began and to be frank, when a club is committed to putting lads on big shows and you're offering them the chance to fight in a club on a Sunday, you just can't compete.

that format and rule set was great , a realistic stepping stone from the mma league/bjj/boxing/kickboxing to fightin at an mma show . the fights were every bit as tough as c class fights (at least the pasting i got was;) ) , a smallish but enthusiastic crowd but the enviornment was great none of the tension in the air thats always there at the night time shows , anyone who looking to have an mma fight that got a fight or two on that type show would be far better off than going straight onto an mma card , pity it didnt pick up a bit more momentum

Jason McCabe

I would back fully a separate event for kids with no drink

But I defibately think they should compete