Clarification on Security issue for licence application

Vizzy

Another "licencing question" (Sorry Mods)
I currently have 3 shotguns (all SxS) but I now want to apply for a .223 rifle.
Have a suitable gunsafe (i.e big enough to take the 4 guns).
Have a monitored alarm.
No problem in getting permissions and letters from farmers supporting an application for a moderator i.e. sheep on land that is bordered by horses etc.
Met the FO last week just to get his thoughts on whether I would get a licence or not.He more or less told me that I hadn't a hope of a rifle unless I got rid of one of the shotguns because of the bad press that gun owners were getting and also due to the number of guns being stolen at present.I left in a state of shock TBH. When I gathered myself and read the Commissioners guidelines I think that the FO is simply being extremely awkward.I have also spoken to 3 RFD's and they concur( why wouldn't they,I suppose) and one went as far as to say that my FO is actually acting illegally.
My question is this - the guidelines specify that if you have more than 3 guns "the place where they are kept must have an alarm fitted".
Problem is that room where my gunsafe is located does not have an alarm on the door but as I say I actually exceed the safety requirement as I have a monitored alarm.
I now intend to go back to the FO and submit an application after speaking to him again but am I on dodgy ground without a specific alarm on the actual room and could I jeopardise the whole application if I tick the moderator box on the application?
Thanks in advance.

rabbit assassin

As long as you meet the security requirements and have a valid reason for requiring another firearm, and can afford the €80 then there is no limit to the amount of guns you can own. The only thing that is difficult is getting the gards and super to do their job correctly. Its all an incredible amount of B0llox in my opinion. Having to wait another half a year in some cases for a .22lr when you've already been cleared to own a .223 or .17hmr or any gun for that matter. Ive no faith in the Gardai or the whole licensing system

Cass

Vizzy wrote: »

.He more or less told me that I hadn't a hope of a rifle unless I got rid of one of the shotguns because of the bad press that gun owners were getting and also due to the number of guns being stolen at present.I left in a state of shock TBH. .

/sigh.

I am so fed up of this makey-uppy law some Gardai are coming out with. There is no restrictions on the amount of firearms you can own, the time between applications or the amount of firearms applied at any one time. NONE.

As to the "rise in gun thefts", and "bad publicity". I would challenge him to first provide proof of this wild statment, and secondly ask him about the amount of stolen/lost Garda firearms, and i won't even get into the Garda firearms used in crimes, lost, stolen, etc.

Anyway i'm going wildly off topic here.

Fill in the application. Most Gardai that say as your FO did are trying to prevent the application rather than having to deal with it. If you submit the application it must go through the channels, and they have to make a decision, officially, and back up that decision. However if they can deter you before you apply then they need do nothing.

As to the alarm. I have all the appropriate locks on my windows, doors, etc however as my house has a monitored burglar alarm there is no need for an individual or seperate alarm on the gun room door. This was verified by the CPO on his visit. So make sure you have the house alarm fully functional, and all necessary locks on the doors. By the sounds of it you are already in level 3 security so can have up to 5 unrestricted firearms without having to upgrade. Now all this is minimum standard of course, but i've yet to hear of someone made to get a huge alarm system for one or two guns.

Cass

rabbit assassin wrote: »

Ive no faith in the Gardai or the whole licensing system

Just on that point.

I have the greatest of respect for An Gardai. My post above is directed at the small minority that take it upon themselves to make up "laws" to deter people from getting a license. We go through the strictest background checks, and procedures to get them and if we pass them we should be allowed to get a firearm.

The licensing system is far from perfect, but would work a lot better if the implementation was as efficient as it should. If time frames were adhered to, and there was a centralised/dedictaed dept. for dealing with them rather than the vastly different methods employed by the different districts.

@ Vizzy. Get your application together, make sure all the i's are dotted, and t's crossed. Drop of the application, and make a copy before doing so, and if possible seek a receipt from whatever Garda takes your application. nothing fancy just a note, letter with their name, and time/date it was dropped off at. Let the refusal, if one is coming, be through official channels, and not the word of the person at the desk/counter.

Vizzy

Thanks Ez.
I thought as much but as I say I wanted to be able to approach him authoratively( not confrontationlly but in such a way as he knows that I know what I am talking about) when I submit the application.
In fairness he was very accommodating when I ran into a bit of a licencing problem with my last gun but the "head him off at the pass" attitude definitely came through loud and clear.

Get your application together, make sure all the i's are dotted, and t's crossed. Drop of the application, and make a copy before doing so, and if possible seek a receipt from whatever Garda takes your application. nothing fancy just a note, letter with their name, and time/date it was dropped off at. Let the refusal, if one is coming, be through official channels, and not the word of the person at the desk/counter.

Already have this in hand( even down to a letter that just needs to be signed by whatever Garda takes the application from me)
P.S I too have the utmost respect for the Gardai and have daily dealings with them.This is what surprised me most as the FO knows me well (less so the Super) and this is why I was initially taken aback so much.But as you say some are just making it up as they go along

Cass

At the height of my gun ownership, and my Father, we had 13 firearms between us. We never encountered any such issues once our applications were in order, and the same with the security measures.

Never had to deal with "you've too many", "get rid of one, two, three of them", etc. As you said i never went in with a confrontational attitude. More a case of i know what i can and cannot do, and i would like fair treatment.

Remember the one downfall a few make though. I've heard many a lad say "i've a right to a gun". They don't. none of us do. We have the ability to apply unless disqualified to, but have no right to a firearm. Plus pulling that "gem" out will only serve to get the back up of the Garda you're dealing with.

Polite, but firm. Respectful yet aware of "right" (as it were). Thats the way to go.

Sparks

Ezridax wrote: »

As to the "rise in gun thefts", and "bad publicity". I would challenge him to first provide proof of this wild statment, and secondly ask him about the amount of stolen/lost Garda firearms, and i won't even get into the Garda firearms used in crimes, and suicides.

To be honest, I wouldn't even bother - he's the FO, not the super. Remember, "FO" is not an actual garda post, it's just shorthand we use to refer to the garda that usually gets stuck dealing with firearms licencing in the station. And the Gardai have stated, publicly, that if your FO says no, just say "thanks very much, pass it on to the super anyway please". In other words, the Garda Siochana officially stated in public to ignore the FO...

Cass

The statement was mostly rhetorical as i wouldn't expect anyone to ask nor an FO to answer. It was more to highlight the crap that gets spewed by some "FO's" when they haven't a fecking notion what it is they are saying.

I'm seriously sick to the back teeth of this. After 3 years i thought we'd have seen a drop in this carry on, but if anything it seems to be on the rise. Bearing in mind my statement above about who it is i'm directing this towards.

My apologies to the OP for going off topic, but i've actually been dealing with two lads, not boards members, that are dealing with the same so it's a case of your situation being the third i've heard in a week.

Just fed up with. All you have to do is look at the threads here. They are identical to 3 years ago. Same questions, because of the treatment people are getting at stations.

Rant over. Going for a coffee, and to cool off.:D

Vizzy

Ok heres the story.

Went off on Saturday and put a deposit on a .223 with scope and mod.

Filled in my FCA1 and met the FO again about 20 minutes ago.
He was a bit more amenable to the idea of a rifle this time when I exolained that I had all the security issues covered.
Gave him the form so it's a matter of wait and see at this stage.

I'll keep ye posted.

Cass

Do.

At least it's in now. They have to process it.

Farmlife

On my first app i submitted receipt of safe with FCA1, met the Super and licence came through, second app granted with no contact. But now on the 3rd one they came out to have a look at the safe, just saw it and asked about where i keep the key, didn't ask about alarm or anything else whilst in the house.

Vizzy

Heres the update.

No sign of anything since I sent in the application 3 1/2 weeks ago( I thought that they might give me a ring to check security,maybe) so I went in and met the FO this morning.
Apparently the Super is recovering from an operation so all applications are at a standstill at the moment.But the FO said that he had looked at the application and that nothing was amiss.(Some good news I suppose)
Will have to wait a bit longer it seems but I dont really mind as I am saving away in the meantime!

More updates to follow.

tac foley

rgugliel wrote: »

...and asked about where i keep the key...]/QUOTE]

I sincerely hope that you didn't actually tell them where you keep the key?

tac

Farmlife

tac foley wrote: »

rgugliel wrote: »

...and asked about where i keep the key...]/QUOTE]

I sincerely hope that you didn't actually tell them where you keep the key?

tac

I sure did, I said I keep it on my keys which is I my pocket 24/7

Vizzy

Update number 3

Got a call from the FO at about lunchtime today and he wanted to come up and review security.
He is only gone a few minutes !!
Anyway while he was hers he checked the safe,checked that the monitored alarm was working properly( even though I don't actually need it and he acknowledged this-exact words were better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it)Asked where I kept keys etc, to which I explained that I would prefer not to answer but I showed that I had them etc.He actually complimented me on not telling him where the keys were.
He apologised for the delay but that it was out of his hands as the Super was sick and was only back this week.
Strange experience to say the least but he says I will have an answer by the weekend. So fingers crossed !!:)

When he was leaving I asked what would the story be with the moderator and was delighted/surprised to be told "we make no issue of them here,in fact we welcome them from a safety point of view.Firstly safety for the shooter that he doesn't damage his hearing and secondly safety for people in the area,that they don't get the s**t frighened out of them when a shot goes off.Its a different story at station X (10miles away)though,there is no point in applying for a mod there as the super thinks they pose a safety hazard"

robertpatterson

Sounds good for you good luck!

Vizzy

Final update.
As I said earlier the Super had been out sick so the licences had been put on the back burner for a few months.
Anyway on 5th Oct I got itchy feet and rang the FO again.
"OH,says he,did you not get the licence yet"
"No" says I.
"I'll just check"he says as he makes small talk and I give him details of DOB,address etc.
"OH,the application has lapsed I'll have to submit it to the Super again.thats a pity"
Cue me losing the rag a bit.
"No,No" he says "you'll have your licence next Tuesday".
Tuesday arrives and I have an envelope with an acknowledgement of my application and advising me that I will have a decision by 28th September and another acknowledgement letter saying that a decision on my new application will be made by 6th January 2013.:eek:
Ring the FO but he is not there so I ask the Garda on duty to get him to ring me urgently.
Then I open another letter and my actual "grant approval letter" is inside.
(FO rings later so I have to thank him very much)

Happy days,down to the post office and pay the fee.
Was about to ring the RFD and ask him to get everything ready,but thought better of it.
Licence arrives Thurday morning.(Very fast I must say).
No f***king "S" on it !!!:eek:

FO is now on a few days off and nobody else in the station can help.Have to wait till Sunday.
In I go on Sunday and I'm told that the "Pulse system" had been acting up but that it will be sorted in a couple of days and by the way the FO would licence me for a "sight" as well.(I didn't even comment)

So,5 months and 26 days later the proper licence arrived this morning.
Now to do a bit of charlie busting!!

Jonty

Vizzy wrote: »

Update number 3


When he was leaving I asked what would the story be with the moderator and was delighted/surprised to be told "we make no issue of them here,in fact we welcome them from a safety point of view.Firstly safety for the shooter that he doesn't damage his hearing and secondly safety for people in the area,that they don't get the s**t frighened out of them when a shot goes off.Its a different story at station X (10miles away)though,there is no point in applying for a mod there as the super thinks they pose a safety hazard"

Hold on a minute. Are you saying common sense was applied?

Fair play to them!

At the same time it just goes to highlight the postcode lottery and kingdoms that exist in the country

juice1304

Thats great, So are you going to get a sight then too?:D:D:cool:

The Aussie

Vizzy wrote: »

So,5 months and 26 days later the proper licence arrived this morning.

Am i the only one who thinks that that is fairly ordinary, a shade under 6 months.

You would think any modern Police Force would attempt to be professional or at least try to look it.

juice1304

Bit this is Ireland the land of "Ah sure it's grand"

Conmaicne Mara

Vizzy wrote: »

and by the way the FO would licence me for a "sight" as well.(I didn't even comment)

Can you buy a night vision system to attach to your rifle now?

mark.17hmr

Assuming you mean the likes of the nd200... As far as I know night vision is not allowed here.. Typical of this county being years behind in the night vision and reloading departments..

Witcher

It's allowed if you're granted it on the licence like a moderator.

Vizzy

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Can you buy a night vision system to attach to your rifle now?

Unfortunately you are misunderstanding my comment about the "sight"( or more importantly the Garda's understanding of it)
When I asked on Sunday about the moderator the FO said to me "oh that was allowed alright but you never sought the licence for a "sight" so I'll put you in for that as well".

By "sight" he was referring to a normal scope and not a night vision device.
After the six months that I had waited for the new gun,mod and scope,I wasn't goin to start a discussion about the necessity or otherwise for a licence for a normal scope.

juice1304

But if you have it on the licence you are entitled to get one.