Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

bc dub

They already have an input into our budget choices and what we do and dont spend our money on. That video said "it means we will still have full control over our budgets"

I'm out.

nacho libre

You say that, yet in your previous you pointed out how the supposedly prudent German couldn't follow their own rules, which was meant to prevent just such a crisis from happening. When France and Germany breached the rules of the growth and stability pact, it was basically giving the green light to peripheral nations like Greek to do the same thing. Also the Germans were happy for the Greeks to keep spending like no tomorrow, so long as German exports kept booming. if the ECB had really been prudent, they'd have cut off the supply of cheap credit, which overheating economies, like Ireland, were crying out for. I have a feeling some commentators like to narrow the focus solely to populist domestic government policy, to avoid the wider contributing factors. It's politically expedient to do so, i suppose, because it encourages people to believe that the EU institutions who were actually instrumental in causing the crisis are our saviors, so we should cede more control to them. if you argued for a yes vote on that basis, then obviously a lot of people might not be swayed by such an argument, so these facts must be obscured/omitted.
I think this treaty, as much as anything, is a bit of windowdressing to placate a disgruntled German public.
It's most likely unworkable in practice because of the vastly differing economic landscape across the Eurozone.

jumpguy

nacho libre wrote: »

You say that, yet in your previous you pointed out how the supposedly prudent German couldn't follow their own rules, which was meant to prevent just such a crisis from happening. When France and Germany breached the rules of the growth and stability pact, it was basically giving the green light to peripheral nations like Greek to do the same thing.

Yep, I agree, France and Germany's initial incompetence sparked the mad lending. Hence their electorate's anger at every other country who spent wildly, particularly Greece, is really ironic.

Also the Germans were happy for the Greeks to keep spending like no tomorrow, so long as German exports kept booming. if the ECB had really been prudent, they'd have cut off the supply of cheap credit, which overheating economies, like Ireland, were crying out for.

True, although that'd have been a very, very unpopular decision at the time, and would've ended the boom. How would the electorate of various EU countries, including Ireland, feel then?

I have a feeling some commentators like to narrow the focus solely to populist domestic government policy, to avoid the wider contributing factors. It's politically expedient to do so, i suppose, because it encourages people to believe that the EU institutions who were actually instrumental in causing the crisis are our saviors, so we should cede more control to them. if you argued for a yes vote on that basis, then obviously a lot of people might not be swayed by such an argument, so these facts must be obscured/omitted.
I think this treaty, as much as anything, is a bit of windowdressing to placate a disgruntled German public.

Not really, it's just that it's irrelevant now. Mistakes on a global level, an EU level, all the way down to a national level precipitated this crisis. To prevent this happening again, changes in policy are being made at each of these levels, and here's our change.

It's most likely unworkable in practice because of the vastly differing economic landscape across the Eurozone.

We'll have to get out the crystal ball for that one, but ultimately it's workable in Ireland, and I believe, good for Ireland. Limits on how irresponsibly we can borrow and spend are badly needed to prevent another populist government doing the same thing FF did.

dvpower

A lot of idiocy being posted on this thread.
Good job that most people posting here won't bother voting.

K-9

LK_Dave wrote: »

Ok, I'm only 2 pages in on the website but why is every other country referred to by its official name but not The Republic of Ireland?

http://www.stabilitytreaty.ie/index.php/en/about_the_treaty/preamble/

THE KINGDOM OF BELGIUM, THE REPUBLIC OF BULGARIA, THE KINGDOM OF DENMARK, THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA, IRELAND, THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC, THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN, THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS, THE REPUBLIC OF LATVIA, THE REPUBLIC OF LITHUANIA, THE GRAND DUCHY OF LUXEMBOURG, HUNGARY, MALTA, THE KINGDOM OF THE NETHERLANDS, THE REPUBLIC OF AUSTRIA, THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND, THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC, ROMANIA, THE REPUBLIC OF SLOVENIA, THE SLOVAK REPUBLIC, THE REPUBLIC OF FINLAND AND THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN,

hereinafter referred to as "the Contracting Parties";

Seriously, just seriously, you think you know better on our countries official name than our civil servants and Brussels bureaucrats? It's a pretty basic thing and you got it wrong. No doubt you'll learn nothing from it.

xflyer wrote: »

Let's clear something up, this treaty goes ahead with or without our approval. Even if we vote no we will be affected by it. So will the Brits as it happens.

If we vote no, the impact on us will be practically the same as if we voted yes. But don't expect to hear that from the government. They're going to lie and lie and lie to us. Their main interest is in maintaining our position as the prodigal boy of Europe. We were naughty but now we've learned our lesson.

If we vote yes, it will reinforce that idea that we're a cowed people prepared to accept any humiliation.

So vote no and reinforce the message sent to government after the Household Charge shambles. It will also send a message to our true masters, the German government and bankers.

The threat that if we don't vote yes, we'll be punished, is nonsense. Far from it, once they realise that we Irish have had enough of being treated like some sort of vassal state. They'll change their tune. A bit more debt forgiveness is vital for this country.

But sadly I think just enough of the Irish people will probably vote yes like all the cowards who paid their household charge.

The day will come though, what's the saying 'You can't fool all of the people all of the time'.

Voting No seems the popular thing to do now. The sheeple seem to vote No first, whatever this sheeple stupid phrase means. All seems group think to me, let's all of of us cool types vote No, not to be a sheeple.

Morlar

Regardless of whatever scaremongering this current govt. come up with I am voting No.

nacho libre

jumpguy wrote: »

True, although that'd have been a very, very unpopular decision at the time, and would've ended the boom. How would the electorate of various EU countries, including Ireland, feel then?


We'll have to get out the crystal ball for that one, but ultimately it's workable in Ireland, and I believe, good for Ireland. Limits on how irresponsibly we can borrow and spend are badly needed to prevent another populist government doing the same thing FF did.

To be honest a lot of times we the electorate don't know what is good for us. This is ideally where good governance should come in. I think while Cowen's political career would have undoubtedly suffered, he'd be regarded as somewhat of a hero now, at least in some quarters, for pursuing responsible fiscal policy during his time as finance minister.

Whether the Fiscal treaty is seen to work here is largely irrelevant, if it fail across the eurozone. We don't have a crystal ball, but what we can do is reflect on turbulence in economic history - and how this tends to repeat itself. With that in mind are you really that confident something like this can't happen again in the future with these new rules? I suspect when the stability and growth compact was drawn up, its drafters saw it as an effective tool to indemnify the eurozone against an economic crisis.
I think the two paramount things we need to improve our situation are: An immediate restructuring of the debt. Additionally Governments, in future, who are prepared to be principled instead of being populist- Although it maybe naive to expect that, because just as Henry the Architect, and Mary the accountant want promotion/career advancement, so does a politician, so they will do what it takes to achieve that, if that means pursuing populist policies they will do so. It is, perhaps on reflection, we the electorate that needs to change our mentality for the better.

Richard tea

Ah I see there are 52 (and counting) gob****es ready for a good arse pounding:rolleyes:

felt good to type that. Off to bed now:P

sdanseo

Absolutely, utterly and unequivocally NO.

This sham of a treaty was rushed, was made by the big eurozone lads to protect themselves, is unfair and is fundamentally flawed.

Forcing a country, or countries, to ram yet more budget cuts down their population's throats will end in anarchy, civil disobediance, poverty on a huge scale, taxes like Ireland in the bad old days (the 80's) and all to preserve the big lads and ensure the status quo for Germany, etc. Not to mention saving the Euro, which even the IMF have recently admitted has a good chance of splitting up.

IMO - the EU should never, ever have been more than a common market, free trade area and other basic, common-sense initiatives. It's sway towards a superstate is alarming, stupid, and undemocratic.

For the love of whatever god you believe in, vote NO.

wingsof daun

The beardy terrorists will get us if dont vote no! :eek:

...You see they will dig their way up from under the Earth! OMG, can you imagine 3 ft tall Irish dwarf terrorists?

jumpguy

nacho libre wrote: »

To be honest a lot of times we the electorate don't know what is good for us. This is ideally where good governance should come in. I think while Cowen's political career would have undoubtedly suffered, he'd be regarded as somewhat of a hero now, at least in some quarters, for pursuing responsible fiscal policy during his time as finance minister.

Agreed.

Whether the Fiscal treaty is seen to work here is largely irrelevant, if it fail across the eurozone. We don't have a crystal ball, but what we can do is reflect on turbulence in economic history - and how this tends to repeat itself. With that in mind are you really that confident something like this can't happen again in the future with these new rules?

It may be a naive notion, but I'd sincerely hope our legislators will remember what runaway spending and shifting tax to one source will do to them when it all eventually, inevitably goes sour. If the Irish electorate (which I'm part of) make at least one decent decision, it can be to never let FF gain a seat again. If they do, it'll just show parties that "ah sure, even FF bounced back eventually, and they screwed it up big time." Although, that said, FF's demise is probably more due to a combination of it's poor governance and allegations of internal corruption. But I digress...

Additionally Governments, in future, who are prepared to be principled instead of being populist

I would favour any referendum that would implement this, be it national or on an EU level.

Although it maybe naive to expect that, because just as Henry the Architect, and Mary the accountant want promotion/career advancement, so does a politician, so they will do what it takes to achieve that, if that means pursuing populist policies they will do so. It is, perhaps on reflection, we the electorate that needs to change our mentality for the better.

This mentality has not changed at all, in fact, I think it'd be the minority of the Irish electorate with the gall to say they're the cause of the problem but also can be the solution. That would be blaming themselves, which is a no-no of course.

Sinn Féin have recently been pelting out the populist policies. No to this tax, no to that tax, no to this cut, all the while never really putting forward any viable alternatives. Guess what...their popularity has surged to something like 25%.

The Irish electorate hasn't changed. Hence, we need to make sure the government won't bring us back here. Even if the treaty is a failure in other parts of Europe and the entire thing falls apart, then let it be a problem for the central governance of Europe to deal with. What do we have to lose here? Worst-case scenario, in my opinion, is that the treaty is rendered pretty much moot and there are no fiscal safeguards in place.

ToddyDoody

Is anyone else fed up of EU referendums?

zenno

The government knows very well that fear rules it's citizens and this will be the reason this referendum will be passed. unfortunately.

Put the fear of god onto the citizens and they will do anything just like previous referendums. Also, we all know it's a farce when the government say this fiscal treaty is for jobs lol it just goes to show you that the Irish government think it's citizens are stupid and braindead. As it has nothing to do with jobs.


Also this makes sense...THE GOVERNMENT’S satisfaction rating has declined sharply according to the latest Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll, which also shows a drop in support for both Coalition parties.

The Labour Party has been particularly hard hit, while Sinn Féin has risen to 21 per cent, its highest rating ever in an Irish Times poll.

Support for Independents and smaller parties has also increased.

Satisfaction with the Government has dropped 14 points to 23 per cent since the last poll in October, while Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore are also down significantly.

The poll was conducted on Monday and Tuesday at the height of the controversy over the planned introduction of water meters.

gurramok

sdeire wrote: »

Absolutely, utterly and unequivocally NO.

This sham of a treaty was rushed, was made by the big eurozone lads to protect themselves, is unfair and is fundamentally flawed.

Forcing a country, or countries, to ram yet more budget cuts down their population's throats will end in anarchy, civil disobediance, poverty on a huge scale, taxes like Ireland in the bad old days (the 80's) and all to preserve the big lads and ensure the status quo for Germany, etc. Not to mention saving the Euro, which even the IMF have recently admitted has a good chance of splitting up.

IMO - the EU should never, ever have been more than a common market, free trade area and other basic, common-sense initiatives. It's sway towards a superstate is alarming, stupid, and undemocratic.

For the love of whatever god you believe in, vote NO.

And the alternative is? Please outline where you see the money coming from to fund welfare and the public sector without budget cuts.

Alot of people are sheeple, they'll vote no in order to punish their govt instead of actually voting on the treaty itself. A bit like when they voted in FF in 2007 as it suited their pockets.
Perhaps they wish Ireland to be like Greece austerity wise after a no vote as they have not outlined where will the country source its borrowings from as it certainly will not be from the markets at sky high interest rates.

Vicxas

Ok so IF we vote no to this treaty, where does that put us?

Do we really need another bail out. I figured our economy was starting to grow a little bit and the bailout was only to cover the toxic banks?

Correct me if im wrong (which some of you will probaby say that i am)

Min

Clare Daly said to vote no, I am voting no to Clare Daly so that is a Yes.

drdeadlift

Vicxas wrote: »

Ok so IF we vote no to this treaty, where does that put us?

Do we really need another bail out. I figured our economy was starting to grow a little bit and the bailout was only to cover the toxic banks?

Correct me if im wrong (which some of you will probaby say that i am)

Another bailout pushes us into even more debt for many many more years,as it stands there is no light at the end of the tunnel as our debt is so high its unrealistic to think we will ever be able to pay it back or even be able to.
The euro zone is in bad shape,in my eyes we have gotten to a point where we all need to go back to the drawing board.
The sooner we bit the bullet and actually deal with the massive loss making country we are in the better.
I would like to see the government actually admit to us that we are ****d,stop drawing this depression on and on with bits of austerity that isnt going to help anyone now or help the countries future.Something drastic needs to happen the sooner the better too,dont wanna sound too like a loonie but maybe try something ala Iceland all Europe has to offer us is more and more loans&debt.

steve9859

I'm voting no.

I am a well educated professional, can put any gripes with the government to one side, and look at it objectively. What Boyd Barrett does, and what he campaigns on is of no concern to me. I am not viting no to punish the government

The threat that if we don't vote yes, we'll be punished, is nonsense IMO. That we will be punished is the fundamental argument that underlies the yes campaign. In fact every yes campaign has had some nonsense argument intended to scare the people - vote YES to keep our jobs for example.

I don't like the way Europe is going, and Ireland needs to retain control of as much as it can. This treaty will empower the unelected bureacrats to do whatever the hell they like over the next decade - and who knows what that will be. They will have carte blanche

The fiscal stuff I have no issue with. A set of rules makes sense, along with co-ordinated national debt issuance. But when you get to Article 9, thats when the wider agenda becomes clear:

Building upon the economic policy coordination as defined in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the Contracting Parties undertake to work jointly towards an economic policy fostering the smooth functioning of the Economic and Monetary Union and economic growth through enhanced convergence and competitiveness. To that end, the Contracting Parties shall take the necessary actions and measures in all the domains which are essential to the good functioning of the euro area in pursuit of the objectives of fostering competitiveness, promoting employment, contributing further to the sustainability of public finances and reinforcing financial stability.

ie. Ireland will have to do whatever is necessary to contribute to what Germany thinks is in Europe's best interest - so that means our tax rate is gone for a start (and anyone in government who says it is protected is talking out of their **** - if it is not in the treaty, in black and white, it is not protected). I am not voting for a treaty that copperfastens that kind of centralised power.

We'll get a bailout if we need one, irrespective of whether we vote yes or no. Saying anythiong else is scaremongering and nothing more. We aren't getting the bailouts to help us remember, we are getting them to in order to stabilise Europe

Vicxas

steve9859 wrote: »

I'm voting no.

I am a well educated professional, can put any gripes with the government to one side, and look at it objectively. What Boyd Barrett does, and what he campaigns on is of no concern to me. I am not viting no to punish the government

The threat that if we don't vote yes, we'll be punished, is nonsense IMO. That we will be punished is the fundamental argument that underlies the yes campaign. In fact every yes campaign has had some nonsense argument intended to scare the people - vote YES to keep our jobs for example.

I don't like the way Europe is going, and Ireland needs to retain control of as much as it can. This treaty will empower the unelected bureacrats to do whatever the hell they like over the next decade - and who knows what that will be. They will have carte blanche

The fiscal stuff I have no issue with. A set of rules makes sense, along with co-ordinated national debt issuance. But when you get to Article 9, thats when the wider agenda becomes clear:

Building upon the economic policy coordination as defined in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the Contracting Parties undertake to work jointly towards an economic policy fostering the smooth functioning of the Economic and Monetary Union and economic growth through enhanced convergence and competitiveness. To that end, the Contracting Parties shall take the necessary actions and measures in all the domains which are essential to the good functioning of the euro area in pursuit of the objectives of fostering competitiveness, promoting employment, contributing further to the sustainability of public finances and reinforcing financial stability.

ie. Ireland will have to do whatever is necessary to contribute to what Germany thinks is in Europe's best interest - so that means our tax rate is gone for a start (and anyone in government who says it is protected is talking out of their **** - if it is not in the treaty, in black and white, it is not protected). I am not voting for a treaty that copperfastens that kind of centralised power.

We'll get a bailout if we need one, irrespective of whether we vote yes or no. Saying anythiong else is scaremongering and nothing more. We aren't getting the bailouts to help us remember, we are getting them to in order to stabilise Europe

Very informative, thanks!

humanji

steve9859 wrote: »

We aren't getting the bailouts to help us remember, we are getting them to in order to stabilise Europe

You do realise that we're part of Europe, right?

Ghandee

humanji wrote: »

You do realise that we're part of Europe, right?

The ECB has admitted that the Irish taxpayer will be fitting the bill to prop up other European banks though.

We may be part of Europe, but it looks like we are in the 'servants quarters' for the next few decades.

prinz

Vote for Pedro Fiscal Treaty.

Dyr

bc dub wrote: »

They already have an input into our budget choices and what we do and dont spend our money on. That video said "it means we will still have full control over our budgets"

I'm out.

"Control" and "Input", two completely different words,

They might already have an input but they don't have overarching control of our budget decisions, if they did they wouldn't need this treaty.


Softly softly catchee monkey, seems to be a really great strategy with some people

Dyr

humanji wrote: »

You do realise that we're part of Europe, right?

We are a part of the EU, in terms of culture and history we don't have much in common with the European mainland. We have more in common with the US, the UK, Australia etc.

humanji

Ghandee wrote: »

The ECB has admitted that the Irish taxpayer will be fitting the bill to prop up other European banks though.

We may be part of Europe, but it looks like we are in the 'servants quarters' for the next few decades.

That is our fault, though. We've a history of replacing the corrupt and incompetent with the corrupt and incompetent. I'd happily vote no if I knew that we would then get some people in the Dail who'd work in our best interests for a change. But as it is, I haven't a clue what way to go. Both sides have som good points which are drowned out by those of the electorate who say anyone who has a different opinion is an idiot.

Ghandee

humanji wrote: »

That is our fault, though. We've a history of replacing the corrupt and incompetent with the corrupt and incompetent. I'd happily vote no if I knew that we would then get some people in the Dail who'd work in our best interests for a change. But as it is, I haven't a clue what way to go. Both sides have som good points which are drowned out by those of the electorate who say anyone who has a different opinion is an idiot.

I'll probably get jumped on for suggesting it, but perhaps now is the time to try the alternative parties?

We've tried the rest, they've failed.

steve9859

humanji wrote: »

You do realise that we're part of Europe, right?

yes....of course....but I don't want to further copper-fasten centralised decision making

Gurgle

readyletsgo wrote: »

Can someone please explain what happens if I vote yes and what happens if I vote no please?
In laymans terms if you can.

Positive:
If Ireland joins this treaty, then it will be much more difficult for a government to buy their way into re-election with a series of giveaway budgets.
The other EU countries that have fcuked up the Eurozone will be similarly constrained. We won't find ourselves in Germany's position next time round, where we're doing alright but have to pay for other people's mistakes.

Negative:
If Ireland joins this treaty, a government can still buy their way into re-election with give-away budgets and it will cost us even more because we'll be punished with a fine. A fine for being broke. Duh!

sbsquarepants

martin kelly. wrote: »

No more budget cuts were suffering enough.

Budget cuts are vital, money is spent fúcking stupidly in this country.
But, still no to this pox of a treaty!

Agricola wrote: »

Its a quandary. How much of this treaty is political gesticulating? Is it just simply a tool for the German government to show their electorate that they are keeping all these crazy foreigners in line? Will there be any real appetite for fully enforcing it in the future? Should we pass it in the hope that it will be largely forgotten about in the years ahead, in order to make sure we have access to more bailout money?

We're paid up members of the IMF. We don't need to take it up the arse from the kaiser to access money. Of course there'll be an appetite to enforce it, or have you not noticed that they are already screwing us and enda's "whatever you say angela" attitude is not going to save us. We'd be better off if we'd borrowed the money from Tony Soprano!

srsly78

Voting NO is the only way to bring down this house of cards. It's the only way to finally solve our bloated public sector and inefficiency. Bring back the punt sure... When I come back in 10 years my euros will make me extremely wealthy in the "new Ireland".

Voting YES of course is what any sane person would do, but Ireland simply does not deserve a future.