Colm O'Rourke's views on Education!

carolzoo

we are already being yellow packed

allowing the hibernia course to go ahead was crazy. where are the jobs? it is just encouraging the exploitation of part time teachers even more.

i think teachers have to strike, else we will be working for nothing with classes of 50 students and no access to resources

Tigerandahalf

peteacher wrote: »

Why should parents have to send their kids to the local Catholic school? What what I can make out the COI (and other non Catholic students) sit in the back of the class whilst the rest prepare for holy communion and confirmation and waste valuable learning time, instead of engaging in other areas of the curriculum?
It is within every parent's right to choose what kind of an education their child receives and most COI kids have to travel quite a distance to get there. Either all schools do not provide religious education (for one denomination or another) or else these various types of schools must be provided for.

I think you took me up wrong. I'm saying many non-practising Catholics/atheists have no choice but to send their child to the local Catholic school.
I would prefer no specific religion to be taught but a general religious education incorporating citizenship/how not to bankrupt your country!

Miss Lockhart

I have to say I find it hard to stomach somebody like Colm O'Rourke being compared to "Daniel in the Lion's Den" and being described in terms of Shakespearean quotes about noble acts.

I find it much more likely that O'Rourke is merely jumping on the populist bandwagon to appeal to his Sindo audience and deflect attention from his property developing failures which might turn such an audience against him. All from the safety of his permanent position and well paid part time work.

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

but what about the small schools thing? Now I know its a hot potato but it annoys me that there are small schools down the road from big primary schools yet they claim they can't close. Why not? because the majority are church of Ireland. Yet Quinn wants to take the Catholic part of schools away but won't stomach the shutting of tiny COI schools. Why not? I have seen a lot of these and I do feel the majority of kids can just go to another school.
Procurement: Annoys the crap out of me when we can't buy stuff off amazon etc where I could get a lot of stuff for the school much cheaper. But no. Same with many other supplies, we are ripped off. The NPS contract, most of the stuff on it is rubbish and you end up buying more of it.
I don't see the Govt tackling insurance costs etc. Or actually amalgamating the VECs, just talking about it.

Yep, there are far too many small primary schools. In the town where I live and teach there are three primary schools, the boys school, the girls school and the COI school.

We also take students in my secondary school from all the small primary schools within roughly a 10 mile radius yet this coming September we will still only have an intake in the low to mid 60s. A good year would be 80-90. Aside from the one COI school in the town none of the others in the catchment are COI.

I just looked up the enrolment for the three schools in the town

Girls: 214 (mixed to first class)
Boys: 89 (second class onwards)
COI: 19

The ironic thing is that some parents in the town were sending their children to the COI school because they thought the other schools were too rough, not as good etc etc. If schools were made non denominational there would be no need for three schools in the town. One large coed school would be enough.

doc_17

The government may feel they have no alternative other than cutting pay. it could be either that or scapping things like TY and getting kids to start a year later (remember that report that came out last year).

If growth is lower they'll have to cut and they'll be reluctant to hit the PTR as it will impact on subject choice

Powerhouse

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, there are far too many small primary schools. In the town where I live and teach there are three primary schools, the boys school, the girls school and the COI school.

We also take students in my secondary school from all the small primary schools within roughly a 10 mile radius yet this coming September we will still only have an intake in the low to mid 60s. A good year would be 80-90. Aside from the one COI school in the town none of the others in the catchment are COI.

I just looked up the enrolment for the three schools in the town

Girls: 214 (mixed to first class)
Boys: 89 (second class onwards)
COI: 19

The ironic thing is that some parents in the town were sending their children to the COI school because they thought the other schools were too rough, not as good etc etc. If schools were made non denominational there would be no need for three schools in the town. One large coed school would be enough.

While it seems irrefutable that larger schools create economies of scale, the only difficulty is that if closing small schools or amalgamating a few schools require building/equipping new premises or renting pre-fabs for the extra students there might be a significant false economy involved.

I just have a premonition of some future report telling us that not a penny was saved.

Powerhouse

doc_17 wrote: »

The government may feel they have no alternative other than cutting pay. it could be either that or scapping things like TY and getting kids to start a year later (remember that report that came out last year).

If growth is lower they'll have to cut and they'll be reluctant to hit the PTR as it will impact on subject choice

I wouldn't be so sure that the government would be very precious about suibject choice to be honest. They've taken many measures in recent years which served to reduce subject choice and in my view are hardly likely to cross any psychological threshold on that any time soon.

Two things about subject choice in the current environment - it is arguable economically that having relatively low numbers in a class in senior cycle is unsustainable and inefficient, and secondly, in political terms, subject choice is an invisible cut.

Only teachers will really see its effects, in the same way only teachers see the broader implications of things like cuts to learning support or guidance. The average hang-'em, flog-'em-but-above-all-else-cut-their-pay-NOW merchant will not even be aware of this stuff and will regard any teacher complaints as a smokescreen for concerns about pay and conditions. Also far the average person the PTR means just one more body in the classroom and very little for teachers to complain about, rather than something that has far broader implications for a school.

Tigerandahalf

Powerhouse wrote: »

While it seems irrefutable that larger schools create economies of scale, the only difficulty is that if closing small schools or amalgamating a few schools require building/equipping new premises or renting pre-fabs for the extra students there might be a significant false economy involved.

I just have a premonition of some future report telling us that not a penny was saved.

I agree with you there. As a poster said above re 3 schools in one area. If you close 1 of them, you could end up needing to build an extension to an existing school. I wish Colm McCarthy had done his costings when he thought of this grand idea. When you consider the small allowance that a teaching principal would be on in a small school, I can't see how they are going to save money. It will cost them money. It is an issue that could come back to haunt rural TDs if problems arise. I can see a scenario where a school would be closed and a year down the line there wouldn't be room for pupils in the amalgamated schools.

rainbowtrout

Powerhouse wrote: »

While it seems irrefutable that larger schools create economies of scale, the only difficulty is that if closing small schools or amalgamating a few schools require building/equipping new premises or renting pre-fabs for the extra students there might be a significant false economy involved.

I just have a premonition of some future report telling us that not a penny was saved.

Oh I agree, and in some cases it may not be justified but schools are built to last so you would hope that amalgamations could occur where facilities already exist if possible, and then look to expand some other schools over time to be able to accommodate larger numbers on a permanent basis.

But hey, the government would never do anything that requires logic.

It just seems daft the number of small schools in the country. Denominations aside, having a school of 19 students in a town where there are two other schools that could accommodate the students seems crazy.

When looking at the figures I came across three primary schools all within 3 miles of each other, none of which had more than 25 students.

doc_17

Didn't O'Rourke say that 80% of the budget of 8.5 Billion goes on teacher pay? Surely that figure is correct? That means 6.8 Billion is on teachers' pay? Say at most there are 75000 teachers in the country then thats how much each? €91000? And all those PT teachers on 10 hrs? Really Colm? Oh it must be true because you are a Princiapl!

This is the type of crap that enrages me when I hear it unchallenged. Newstalk were delighted when they could find someone inside the system who would spout their message. A bit like Fox "news" in the states. Get a Democrat who agrees with the Republican and wheel him out in front of everyone so it's indirectly attacking them, ie getting someone else to do it for you.

Maybe he might have meant to say 80% goes on salaries and pensions of all the people who work/used to work in Irish education. But the point is, he was wrong and he was unchallenged when he was.

raytray

doc_17 wrote: »

Didn't O'Rourke say that 80% of the budget of 8.5 Billion goes on teacher pay? Surely that figure is correct? That means 6.8 Billion is on teachers' pay? Say at most there are 75000 teachers in the country then thats how much each? €91000? And all those PT teachers on 10 hrs? Really Colm? Oh it must be true because you are a Princiapl!

The pay figure includes paying retired teachers pensions.

TheDriver

and also remember tha vast percentage that goes back into the Govt coffers anyways so lets say you save 1bn on pay where they would get 41% tax, USC etc on it and give it in grant money where you get at most 21% VAT, so in essence cutting pay and giving it to other sections isn't the massive saving

Powerhouse

TheDriver wrote: »

and also remember tha vast percentage that goes back into the Govt coffers anyways so lets say you save 1bn on pay where they would get 41% tax, USC etc on it and give it in grant money where you get at most 21% VAT, so in essence cutting pay and giving it to other sections isn't the massive saving

Indeed the actual net cost of pay to the government is far far less than acknowledged or realised. But don't they say that the first casualty of war is truth?

spurious

Amalgamated schools does not always mean they have to be on the one site. A bigger school could have two DPs, so there could always be someone 'in charge' of each building.

There would be a timetabling issue where the school was in two or more buildings, but 20 years ago I worked in a school which was in two different locations - it's not impossible.

I can see safety issues with smaller children travelling, so it might not be ideal for primary schools, but teenagers can easily walk one end of the town to another.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

Amalgamated schools does not always mean they have to be on the one site. A bigger school could have two DPs, so there could always be someone 'in charge' of each building.

There would be a timetabling issue where the school was in two or more buildings, but 20 years ago I worked in a school which was in two different locations - it's not impossible.

I can see safety issues with smaller children travelling, so it might not be ideal for primary schools, but teenagers can easily walk one end of the town to another.

That's the set up in Ballinamore at the moment, officially on paper there are two schools but realistically it's one school operating out of two buildings.

My school is split into two buildings following an amalgamation. Second level in the main building and PLC in one of the other old buildings.

A primary school amalgamation could probably have all the juniors (junior infants - second class) in one building and third class up in another which would mean they wouldn't have to travel.

steve2012

I believe the teachers in colm O'Rourkes school earn around the region of 30-40 grand a year maybe more if you do some extra things during school. Think I heard he earns atleast 80 grand and that doesn't include the interviews he does on the radio and rte , you can't forget the newspapers and what ever else he has invested in and he's getting, that bill from the bank won't put him down anyway

whiteandlight

doc_17 wrote: »

Didn't O'Rourke say that 80% of the budget of 8.5 Billion goes on teacher pay? Surely that figure is correct? That means 6.8 Billion is on teachers' pay? Say at most there are 75000 teachers in the country then thats how much each? €91000? And all those PT teachers on 10 hrs? Really Colm? Oh it must be true because you are a Princiapl!

This is the type of crap that enrages me when I hear it unchallenged. Newstalk were delighted when they could find someone inside the system who would spout their message. A bit like Fox "news" in the states. Get a Democrat who agrees with the Republican and wheel him out in front of everyone so it's indirectly attacking them, ie getting someone else to do it for you.

Maybe he might have meant to say 80% goes on salaries and pensions of all the people who work/used to work in Irish education. But the point is, he was wrong and he was unchallenged when he was.

I've just been reading up in this and no teachers pay does not take up 80% of the budget. Pay for primary, secondary and third level teachers, pensions for all three levels, VEC coordinators, administrators, DES employees, SNA's... All the way down to caretakers of schools is included in that figure.

From research a poster on another board the 2012 budget for DES primary and secondary teachers pay and pensions is 44.75% of their budget? Even if you include the third level sector you come up To 62% well clear of the 80-85% the media are reporting.
Figures came from here apparently : http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final.pdf

doc_17

Cheers for that. I kinda knew that. I was just being a bit sarcastic and giving out about these reporters being so sloppy with their figures. It's really annoying.

Third level student grants I think are also paid out of that budget as well

whiteandlight

Just spent the last hour reading through that budget. Can't believe FAS is now part of the DES and some of the things listed I never knew about!

whiteandlight

I didn't want to start another thread but thought it might interest people to know that the following quote is taken from the latest OECD report on education:

"The salaries of teachers and other education staff account for the largest proportion of current expenditure in all countries. In OECD countries, expenditure on compensation accounts for an average of 79% of current expenditure on primary, secondary and post-secondary non-tertiary education combined." pg 274

So despite what the media and Ruairi quinn would have you believe the fact that 80% of the budget (also disputed as incorrect but that's addressed in a previous post) would still not even bring us out of line with Europe.

Powerhouse

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I didn't want to start another thread but thought it might interest people to know that the following quote is taken from the latest OECD report on education:

"The salaries of teachers and other education staff account for the largest proportion of current expenditure in all countries. In OECD countries, expenditure on compensation accounts for an average of 79% of current expenditure on primary, secondary and post-secondary non-tertiary education combined." pg 274

So despite what the media and Ruairi quinn would have you believe the fact that 80% of the budget (also disputed as incorrect but that's addressed in a previous post) would still not even bring us out of line with Europe.

That wouyldn't surprise me. I imagine in any business or industry the highest cost is always staff, not least because it's a recurring cost. What these people who criticise that fact in education expect the largest part of the cost to be is beyond me - blackboards maybe.

whiteandlight

Blackboards gave me a laugh rofl!

byhookorbycrook

From educationposts:
Figures are from comptroller and auditor general report for office of minister for education 2009. Info from pages 317 to 344.



"Primary Level
Teachers' Salaries: €2,105,660,000
Other Salaries: €303,631,000
Pensions: €458,171,000
Total Pay and Pensions: €2,867,462,000


2nd Level
Teachers' Salaries: €1,282,934,000
Other Salaries: €47,393,000
Pensions: €327,090
Total Pay and Pensions: €1,657,417,000


Total Expenditure on Education: €8,776,215,000


This means that Primary level pay and pensions are 33% of total budget, and 2nd level pay and pensions are 19% of the total. Combined, pay and pensions across primary and secondary levels account for 52% of the education budget.
I haven't included 3rd level, because the accounts don't show figures for salaries and superannuation, the amounts are listed as grants etc, but if the 80% figure being used in the media were correct, 3rd level pay and pensions would have to come to 28% of the total the total education budget, or €2,457,340,200. This is actually greater than the total current spend on 3rd level, so it is simply not possible to hit the "target" of 80%, as far as I can make out. "

Is the salary of Ho Chi Quinn paid from the DES budget?Funny how it gets glosssed over that Fás or whatever it is called now is also part of th DES budget now too.