Colm O'Rourke's views on Education!

Xenophile

Colm O'Rourke's views on Education!

The former "great" in many ways Meath footballer and current GAA pundit and commentator had some very interesting and radical things to say about Teachers and Teaching broadcast on Newstalk this morning, can anyone provide a link, it's on segment 3 of this mornings podcast. He is a currently the school principal in St.Patrick's Classical School Navan.

byhookorbycrook

did he not retire?

dambarude

Listening to it now - it's on the newstalk player, here: http://media.newstalk.ie/. Click on part 3 of Thursday's show and skip to around the 18th minute.

Edit: Having listened to it, he's seems more concerned about the decisions he'll have to make as a principal than anything else. He suggests that teacher pay in general should be cut to allow for more teachers to be hired. Principals of long service can probably say that comfortably. He seems to imply that younger teachers with no jobs would prefer if this happened.

byhookorbycrook

Hmmm, principal eh?Wonder if he'd give up his principal's allowances?

dambarude

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Hmmm, principal eh?Wonder if he'd give up his principal's allowances?

That's just the thing - he only referred to teachers taking a pay cut. I'd imagine his staffroom could be a bit awkward after the Easter break.

bdoo

dambarude wrote: »

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Hmmm, principal eh?Wonder if he'd give up his principal's allowances?

That's just the thing - he only referred to teachers taking a pay cut. I'd imagine his staffroom could be a bit awkward after the Easter break.

Indeed,

it seems there are a few of these types advocating a pay cut for teachers. Clive Byrne of NAPD is another. I'm sure if you're on top of the scale plus a large allowance a pay cut doesn't seem drastic. If on the other hand you're at the tail end of it it's a different matter entirely.

Bear in mind of course that Mr. O'Rourke is surely earning some sort of a wage fro his extra curricular activities at RTE.

I do not accept that teachers should take another pay cut, no matter how you dress it up.

evolving_doors

I reckon the pay cuts are well on the way, in fairness to rory quinn he did say that reports in the media teachers allowances were unfair (newstalk yesterday) but of course cuts are still on the way

If pay cuts are announced most teachers probably would be reluctant to strike for long period, probably just a day or two. The public sentiment towards teachers is fairly harsh at the moment, especially if students loose days and parents have to take days off etc. Every media jock and their mother are calling for croke park to be abolished.

The public really have no idea how 'unprofessional' teaching has become with regards to giving new entrants a decent living. I think when people talk about teachers they need to distinguish between over or under 35 yrs of age. Because theres a hell of a difference. Saw an add in the paper for 2 hrs per week a while back, jeez you wouldn't even offer that to a binman.

vamos!

Armelodie wrote: »

I reckon the pay cuts are well on the way, in fairness to rory quinn he did say that reports in the media teachers allowances were unfair (newstalk yesterday) but of course cuts are still on the way

If pay cuts are announced most teachers probably would be reluctant to strike for long period, probably just a day or two. The public sentiment towards teachers is fairly harsh at the moment, especially if students loose days and parents have to take days off etc. Every media jock and their mother are calling for croke park to be abolished.

The public really have no idea how 'unprofessional' teaching has become with regards to giving new entrants a decent living. I think when people talk about teachers they need to distinguish between over or under 35 yrs of age. Because theres a hell of a difference. Saw an add in the paper for 2 hrs per week a while back, jeez you wouldn't even offer that to a binman.

A colleague from the last school I worked in has been offered one class a day for next year. This man has a number of years experience and has been in the school for 2 years. The same man no dobut, has to listen to people telling him how good he has it. It is looking like I will be cut from my current 11 to 5.something next year. I am approaching 30.

Teachers won't strike. The attitude in my staff room is that everyone is too stretched and won't be able to pay their mortgage if they lose a days pay. I'm not sure what their plan is if they lose their allownces.

bdoo

There may not be an appetite for a strike but whatever about losing pay for strike days the combined effect of a 20% cut in allowances will be far greater.

It's not only a pay issue. How many are on short hours? How many young teachers dont have a meaningful contract. In any other job 10 hours might be 2 days work. In teaching you might be expected to attend for 5 full days to deliver those hours.
Then there are several teachers of the same subject all on short hours when it could be say, a job and a half instead of 4 bits of jobs.
Now I know that this would mean that 2 people would have no hours in the school but setting the record straight and resisting the casualisation of what's left of this profession needs to start somewhere.

Teachers need to stand up for themselves and until people see that the work that is being done to hold the ship together as an act of good will that cannot last forever they cannot appreciate the full extent of the cuts.

To focus the mind think of what has been cut in your school. Now think of the effect it has had on the student and parent experience - Very little I suspect.

Now think of the effect it has had on you and your colleagues, we are covering up and papering over the cracks with no cutback in delivery of service, public spending may be unsustainable neither is this.

evolving_doors

There won't be any specific cuts I reckon but a total overhaul of the system, allowances scrapped and reconstituted into something else...

Young teachers need to strike separately I reckon, it's the only way to highlight what's going on, older teachers have too much ' baggage' attached in terms of media spin. Apologies for using age as a descriptor..

byhookorbycrook

I'm primary and the one of biggest issues I see is the cut in SEN provision. The new clustering arrangements are supposed to save money and help productivity-yet schools have to share clusters with other schools up to 20 miles away,even though the school might have other part time teachers.
Why not combine hours into one meaningful job, as opposed to having teachers pass other part timers on the roads and spend more time on the road than they spend in a school.What's worse, these posts mean the NQTS can't even do their dips.

Strike?BRING IT ON.

rainbowtrout

bdoo wrote: »

There may not be an appetite for a strike but whatever about losing pay for strike days the combined effect of a 20% cut in allowances will be far greater.

It's not only a pay issue. How many are on short hours? How many young teachers dont have a meaningful contract. In any other job 10 hours might be 2 days work. In teaching you might be expected to attend for 5 full days to deliver those hours.
Then there are several teachers of the same subject all on short hours when it could be say, a job and a half instead of 4 bits of jobs.
Now I know that this would mean that 2 people would have no hours in the school but setting the record straight and resisting the casualisation of what's left of this profession needs to start somewhere.

Teachers need to stand up for themselves and until people see that the work that is being done to hold the ship together as an act of good will that cannot last forever they cannot appreciate the full extent of the cuts.

To focus the mind think of what has been cut in your school. Now think of the effect it has had on the student and parent experience - Very little I suspect.

Now think of the effect it has had on you and your colleagues, we are covering up and papering over the cracks with no cutback in delivery of service, public spending may be unsustainable neither is this.

I agree more or less with the rest of your post, but I don't think this is a fair comment. Students have seen subjects removed from their school, reducing their choices, which possibly have a knock on effect on what they can choose in third level. Class sizes are getting bigger which means there is less time given to students. Reductions in SNAs mean students that need help aren't getting.

My school used to have four classes for English, Irish and Maths in 5th/6th year. Now we only have three. So instead of 4 x 20-23 ish, we now have 3 x 30ish. That has definitely a knock on effect on students, particularly where weak students are in large classes and can't get attention they need.

We used to provide a timetable of 30 hours class contact time for students (9 -4pm) which was above the minimum required. Now we only provide 28 hours a week, students have 35 minute classes instead of 40, so we could keep all subjects going.

This has to have a knock on effect on students. It's similar in other places.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

There won't be any specific cuts I reckon but a total overhaul of the system, allowances scrapped and reconstituted into something else...

Young teachers need to strike separately I reckon, it's the only way to highlight what's going on, older teachers have too much ' baggage' attached in terms of media spin. Apologies for using age as a descriptor..

Young teachers striking on their own won't work. They have no security. Government aren't a bit worried about them, especially as they know PDE courses are over subscribed and new graduates will do pretty much anything to get their foot in the door in a school and get some hours on contract. Principals/BOMs/VECs are not helping the situation by advertising jobs for little or no hours.

With PDEs oversubscribed for the last number of years and not enough jobs to go around, Hibernia's second level PDE was given the go ahead, even though job prospects are miserable.

Xenophile

People like Colm who dare to be a Daniel in the lions den and speak the minority view fearlessly should be given credit for having the courage of their convictions. I think this was a real scoop by Newstalk. For far too long we were far too happy just to listen to what we wanted to hear.

Well said, my noble Royal: if speaking truth
In this fine age were not thought flattery,

byhookorbycrook

Yeah, I'd still take him more seriously if he surrendered his principal's allowances and RTE money. Bit like Ed Walshe really.

Xenophile

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Yeah, I'd still take him more seriously if he surrendered his principal's allowances and RTE money. Bit like Ed Walshe really.

So is this the policy of the future, work hard be passionate and honest about what you do and be prepared to give your earnings back if people less principled than yourself make a mess out of running the country!

If this is the way of the future who could blame decent young people for emigrating?

Please be real, no one can tell about another's financial situation and if they could it is completely irrelevant.

Miss Lockhart

He has hardly shown good economic sense in the past so why would anybody listen to his views about budgets for anything?

doc_17

These views aren't new. He's had them for some time.

bdoo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

There may not be an appetite for a strike but whatever about losing pay for strike days the combined effect of a 20% cut in allowances will be far greater.

It's not only a pay issue. How many are on short hours? How many young teachers dont have a meaningful contract. In any other job 10 hours might be 2 days work. In teaching you might be expected to attend for 5 full days to deliver those hours.
Then there are several teachers of the same subject all on short hours when it could be say, a job and a half instead of 4 bits of jobs.
Now I know that this would mean that 2 people would have no hours in the school but setting the record straight and resisting the casualisation of what's left of this profession needs to start somewhere.

Teachers need to stand up for themselves and until people see that the work that is being done to hold the ship together as an act of good will that cannot last forever they cannot appreciate the full extent of the cuts.

To focus the mind think of what has been cut in your school. Now think of the effect it has had on the student and parent experience - Very little I suspect.

Now think of the effect it has had on you and your colleagues, we are covering up and papering over the cracks with no cutback in delivery of service, public spending may be unsustainable neither is this.

I agree more or less with the rest of your post, but I don't think this is a fair comment. Students have seen subjects removed from their school, reducing their choices, which possibly have a knock on effect on what they can choose in third level. Class sizes are getting bigger which means there is less time given to students. Reductions in SNAs mean students that need help aren't getting.

My school used to have four classes for English, Irish and Maths in 5th/6th year. Now we only have three. So instead of 4 x 20-23 ish, we now have 3 x 30ish. That has definitely a knock on effect on students, particularly where weak students are in large classes and can't get attention they need.

We used to provide a timetable of 30 hours class contact time for students (9 -4pm) which was above the minimum required. Now we only provide 28 hours a week, students have 35 minute classes instead of 40, so we could keep all subjects going.

This has to have a knock on effect on students. It's similar in other places.

you are correct of course but I wonder how aware of this the students and parents are its,the perception that the cuts are not affecting service and that now teachers are actually working that needs to be addressed, I should have been clearer.

rainbowtrout

bdoo wrote: »

you are correct of course but I wonder how aware of this the students and parents are its,the perception that the cuts are not affecting service and that now teachers are actually working that needs to be addressed, I should have been clearer.

I think they're very aware of it, in our case anyway. Kids spend less time at school and they are in bigger classes.

Littlehorny

Colm o Rourke as anyone who lives in Meath knows is a fairly wealthy man outside of his day job. He gets well paid for his punditry work and was involved in building projects over the years. His kids are grown up, i take it he has no mortgage anymore, while as a fellow Meathman i am not attacking him personally i would say it is easy for people at the top to talk about taking a hit financiallyt.
I wondor how Colm would have felt when he was in his 20s with a young family, mortgage, new job as a teacher and running around the country with his football career if his bosses had told him he should be on less money.

TheDriver

same as Ed walshe, easy to bash when the bank balance is strong.

doc_17

Ed Walsh is hard to listen to. But O'Rourke is slightly different. I think we will have our pay cut again. It's coming down the line and I think it is unavoidable at this stage.

I just don't see where they can get the savings they need without hitting pay. But O'Rourke is naive if he believes that cuts in pay for established teachers will be used to fund the hiring new teachers.

TheDriver

but what about the small schools thing? Now I know its a hot potato but it annoys me that there are small schools down the road from big primary schools yet they claim they can't close. Why not? because the majority are church of Ireland. Yet Quinn wants to take the Catholic part of schools away but won't stomach the shutting of tiny COI schools. Why not? I have seen a lot of these and I do feel the majority of kids can just go to another school.
Procurement: Annoys the crap out of me when we can't buy stuff off amazon etc where I could get a lot of stuff for the school much cheaper. But no. Same with many other supplies, we are ripped off. The NPS contract, most of the stuff on it is rubbish and you end up buying more of it.
I don't see the Govt tackling insurance costs etc. Or actually amalgamating the VECs, just talking about it.

Tigerandahalf

I'd agree with you all re O'Rourke. Easy to talk when you're in a safe position financially. I find his comments to be in very poor taste. He comes across as thinking teachers have an easy number. Fine if you are permanent. Given he is a secondary principal he should be well aware of how poor the work situation is for young graduates. He is writing for the Sindo, so who knows what the story is there. That paper is anti-public service so maybe Colm is looking after his column. He also was involved in property development during the boom. As far as I know some of the projects are not going too well.

carolzoo

yes, quinn could easily amalgamate the church or ireland school population into the bigger primary schools - by deploying/amalgamating the church of ireland teachers to cover the religious aspect of the curriculum

that would go with his current theme of non denominational schools!

Tigerandahalf

Re COI...I have nothing against them. But many people are sending their kids to Catholic primary schools and have no choice in the matter. Either you send them to the local Catholic primary school or be prepared for a long drive.
I'd have more concern for 4/5 year olds having to travel on a cold bus for 20 miles in the morning. I did it when I was young as the bus went on a loop route even though I was only 2 miles from the school itself.
My sister's coat got it one morning.

Powerhouse

doc_17 wrote: »

1) I just don't see where they can get the savings they need without hitting pay.

2) But O'Rourke is naive if he believes that cuts in pay for established teachers will be used to fund the hiring new teachers.

1) There are probaly lots of areas they could look at such as not providing lunch for everyone at in-services or paying mileage to teachers doing oral exams (of which I will be one) for often covering more or less the same distance as they cover going to school normally, and probably many many more I am unaware of myself. But pay is much more politically visible so more attractive, but - though I'm not sure what you mean by "coming down the line" - I wouldn't be so confident the government will blatantly break the CP agreement. There are a few itchy feet in the government parties as it is.

2) Only the terminally naive or maybe a very frustrated wishful thinking NQT would see a link between cuts in pay for established teachers and hiring new teachers. If the government creates such a link then it saves no money and saving money is the whole point. Privately O'Rourke couldn't seriously believe this is a runner.

Tigerandahalf

The gov won't touch pay until Croke Park is finished. It wouldn't be a shrewd move on their part. However, our pay will be threatened again. There is no doubt about that. Are teachers united to strike though?

carolzoo

whilst i feel for newly qualified teachers the majority of them would not have mortgages got based on their existing teaching salary as many existing teachers do.

so many existing teachers have mortgages, home improvement loans, family planning based on their existing wage.

also house prices etc much more affordable for nqt now.

that said the part time hours situation in schools is a disgrace. what other profession e.g. nurse, doctor, accountant gets "hours"

Tigerandahalf

Not necessarily. Many postgrads are in their late 20s/early 30s, are married and have a mortgage. So they are in a very bad position. While house prices are now low, nobody will be in a position to buy until they are permanent.
Teachers I feel are too divided to strike long term.

carolzoo

we are already being yellow packed

allowing the hibernia course to go ahead was crazy. where are the jobs? it is just encouraging the exploitation of part time teachers even more.

i think teachers have to strike, else we will be working for nothing with classes of 50 students and no access to resources

Tigerandahalf

peteacher wrote: »

Why should parents have to send their kids to the local Catholic school? What what I can make out the COI (and other non Catholic students) sit in the back of the class whilst the rest prepare for holy communion and confirmation and waste valuable learning time, instead of engaging in other areas of the curriculum?
It is within every parent's right to choose what kind of an education their child receives and most COI kids have to travel quite a distance to get there. Either all schools do not provide religious education (for one denomination or another) or else these various types of schools must be provided for.

I think you took me up wrong. I'm saying many non-practising Catholics/atheists have no choice but to send their child to the local Catholic school.
I would prefer no specific religion to be taught but a general religious education incorporating citizenship/how not to bankrupt your country!

Miss Lockhart

I have to say I find it hard to stomach somebody like Colm O'Rourke being compared to "Daniel in the Lion's Den" and being described in terms of Shakespearean quotes about noble acts.

I find it much more likely that O'Rourke is merely jumping on the populist bandwagon to appeal to his Sindo audience and deflect attention from his property developing failures which might turn such an audience against him. All from the safety of his permanent position and well paid part time work.

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

but what about the small schools thing? Now I know its a hot potato but it annoys me that there are small schools down the road from big primary schools yet they claim they can't close. Why not? because the majority are church of Ireland. Yet Quinn wants to take the Catholic part of schools away but won't stomach the shutting of tiny COI schools. Why not? I have seen a lot of these and I do feel the majority of kids can just go to another school.
Procurement: Annoys the crap out of me when we can't buy stuff off amazon etc where I could get a lot of stuff for the school much cheaper. But no. Same with many other supplies, we are ripped off. The NPS contract, most of the stuff on it is rubbish and you end up buying more of it.
I don't see the Govt tackling insurance costs etc. Or actually amalgamating the VECs, just talking about it.

Yep, there are far too many small primary schools. In the town where I live and teach there are three primary schools, the boys school, the girls school and the COI school.

We also take students in my secondary school from all the small primary schools within roughly a 10 mile radius yet this coming September we will still only have an intake in the low to mid 60s. A good year would be 80-90. Aside from the one COI school in the town none of the others in the catchment are COI.

I just looked up the enrolment for the three schools in the town

Girls: 214 (mixed to first class)
Boys: 89 (second class onwards)
COI: 19

The ironic thing is that some parents in the town were sending their children to the COI school because they thought the other schools were too rough, not as good etc etc. If schools were made non denominational there would be no need for three schools in the town. One large coed school would be enough.

doc_17

The government may feel they have no alternative other than cutting pay. it could be either that or scapping things like TY and getting kids to start a year later (remember that report that came out last year).

If growth is lower they'll have to cut and they'll be reluctant to hit the PTR as it will impact on subject choice

Powerhouse

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, there are far too many small primary schools. In the town where I live and teach there are three primary schools, the boys school, the girls school and the COI school.

We also take students in my secondary school from all the small primary schools within roughly a 10 mile radius yet this coming September we will still only have an intake in the low to mid 60s. A good year would be 80-90. Aside from the one COI school in the town none of the others in the catchment are COI.

I just looked up the enrolment for the three schools in the town

Girls: 214 (mixed to first class)
Boys: 89 (second class onwards)
COI: 19

The ironic thing is that some parents in the town were sending their children to the COI school because they thought the other schools were too rough, not as good etc etc. If schools were made non denominational there would be no need for three schools in the town. One large coed school would be enough.

While it seems irrefutable that larger schools create economies of scale, the only difficulty is that if closing small schools or amalgamating a few schools require building/equipping new premises or renting pre-fabs for the extra students there might be a significant false economy involved.

I just have a premonition of some future report telling us that not a penny was saved.

Powerhouse

doc_17 wrote: »

The government may feel they have no alternative other than cutting pay. it could be either that or scapping things like TY and getting kids to start a year later (remember that report that came out last year).

If growth is lower they'll have to cut and they'll be reluctant to hit the PTR as it will impact on subject choice

I wouldn't be so sure that the government would be very precious about suibject choice to be honest. They've taken many measures in recent years which served to reduce subject choice and in my view are hardly likely to cross any psychological threshold on that any time soon.

Two things about subject choice in the current environment - it is arguable economically that having relatively low numbers in a class in senior cycle is unsustainable and inefficient, and secondly, in political terms, subject choice is an invisible cut.

Only teachers will really see its effects, in the same way only teachers see the broader implications of things like cuts to learning support or guidance. The average hang-'em, flog-'em-but-above-all-else-cut-their-pay-NOW merchant will not even be aware of this stuff and will regard any teacher complaints as a smokescreen for concerns about pay and conditions. Also far the average person the PTR means just one more body in the classroom and very little for teachers to complain about, rather than something that has far broader implications for a school.

Tigerandahalf

Powerhouse wrote: »

While it seems irrefutable that larger schools create economies of scale, the only difficulty is that if closing small schools or amalgamating a few schools require building/equipping new premises or renting pre-fabs for the extra students there might be a significant false economy involved.

I just have a premonition of some future report telling us that not a penny was saved.

I agree with you there. As a poster said above re 3 schools in one area. If you close 1 of them, you could end up needing to build an extension to an existing school. I wish Colm McCarthy had done his costings when he thought of this grand idea. When you consider the small allowance that a teaching principal would be on in a small school, I can't see how they are going to save money. It will cost them money. It is an issue that could come back to haunt rural TDs if problems arise. I can see a scenario where a school would be closed and a year down the line there wouldn't be room for pupils in the amalgamated schools.

rainbowtrout

Powerhouse wrote: »

While it seems irrefutable that larger schools create economies of scale, the only difficulty is that if closing small schools or amalgamating a few schools require building/equipping new premises or renting pre-fabs for the extra students there might be a significant false economy involved.

I just have a premonition of some future report telling us that not a penny was saved.

Oh I agree, and in some cases it may not be justified but schools are built to last so you would hope that amalgamations could occur where facilities already exist if possible, and then look to expand some other schools over time to be able to accommodate larger numbers on a permanent basis.

But hey, the government would never do anything that requires logic.

It just seems daft the number of small schools in the country. Denominations aside, having a school of 19 students in a town where there are two other schools that could accommodate the students seems crazy.

When looking at the figures I came across three primary schools all within 3 miles of each other, none of which had more than 25 students.

doc_17

Didn't O'Rourke say that 80% of the budget of 8.5 Billion goes on teacher pay? Surely that figure is correct? That means 6.8 Billion is on teachers' pay? Say at most there are 75000 teachers in the country then thats how much each? €91000? And all those PT teachers on 10 hrs? Really Colm? Oh it must be true because you are a Princiapl!

This is the type of crap that enrages me when I hear it unchallenged. Newstalk were delighted when they could find someone inside the system who would spout their message. A bit like Fox "news" in the states. Get a Democrat who agrees with the Republican and wheel him out in front of everyone so it's indirectly attacking them, ie getting someone else to do it for you.

Maybe he might have meant to say 80% goes on salaries and pensions of all the people who work/used to work in Irish education. But the point is, he was wrong and he was unchallenged when he was.

raytray

doc_17 wrote: »

Didn't O'Rourke say that 80% of the budget of 8.5 Billion goes on teacher pay? Surely that figure is correct? That means 6.8 Billion is on teachers' pay? Say at most there are 75000 teachers in the country then thats how much each? €91000? And all those PT teachers on 10 hrs? Really Colm? Oh it must be true because you are a Princiapl!

The pay figure includes paying retired teachers pensions.

TheDriver

and also remember tha vast percentage that goes back into the Govt coffers anyways so lets say you save 1bn on pay where they would get 41% tax, USC etc on it and give it in grant money where you get at most 21% VAT, so in essence cutting pay and giving it to other sections isn't the massive saving

Powerhouse

TheDriver wrote: »

and also remember tha vast percentage that goes back into the Govt coffers anyways so lets say you save 1bn on pay where they would get 41% tax, USC etc on it and give it in grant money where you get at most 21% VAT, so in essence cutting pay and giving it to other sections isn't the massive saving

Indeed the actual net cost of pay to the government is far far less than acknowledged or realised. But don't they say that the first casualty of war is truth?

spurious

Amalgamated schools does not always mean they have to be on the one site. A bigger school could have two DPs, so there could always be someone 'in charge' of each building.

There would be a timetabling issue where the school was in two or more buildings, but 20 years ago I worked in a school which was in two different locations - it's not impossible.

I can see safety issues with smaller children travelling, so it might not be ideal for primary schools, but teenagers can easily walk one end of the town to another.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

Amalgamated schools does not always mean they have to be on the one site. A bigger school could have two DPs, so there could always be someone 'in charge' of each building.

There would be a timetabling issue where the school was in two or more buildings, but 20 years ago I worked in a school which was in two different locations - it's not impossible.

I can see safety issues with smaller children travelling, so it might not be ideal for primary schools, but teenagers can easily walk one end of the town to another.

That's the set up in Ballinamore at the moment, officially on paper there are two schools but realistically it's one school operating out of two buildings.

My school is split into two buildings following an amalgamation. Second level in the main building and PLC in one of the other old buildings.

A primary school amalgamation could probably have all the juniors (junior infants - second class) in one building and third class up in another which would mean they wouldn't have to travel.

steve2012

I believe the teachers in colm O'Rourkes school earn around the region of 30-40 grand a year maybe more if you do some extra things during school. Think I heard he earns atleast 80 grand and that doesn't include the interviews he does on the radio and rte , you can't forget the newspapers and what ever else he has invested in and he's getting, that bill from the bank won't put him down anyway

whiteandlight

doc_17 wrote: »

Didn't O'Rourke say that 80% of the budget of 8.5 Billion goes on teacher pay? Surely that figure is correct? That means 6.8 Billion is on teachers' pay? Say at most there are 75000 teachers in the country then thats how much each? €91000? And all those PT teachers on 10 hrs? Really Colm? Oh it must be true because you are a Princiapl!

This is the type of crap that enrages me when I hear it unchallenged. Newstalk were delighted when they could find someone inside the system who would spout their message. A bit like Fox "news" in the states. Get a Democrat who agrees with the Republican and wheel him out in front of everyone so it's indirectly attacking them, ie getting someone else to do it for you.

Maybe he might have meant to say 80% goes on salaries and pensions of all the people who work/used to work in Irish education. But the point is, he was wrong and he was unchallenged when he was.

I've just been reading up in this and no teachers pay does not take up 80% of the budget. Pay for primary, secondary and third level teachers, pensions for all three levels, VEC coordinators, administrators, DES employees, SNA's... All the way down to caretakers of schools is included in that figure.

From research a poster on another board the 2012 budget for DES primary and secondary teachers pay and pensions is 44.75% of their budget? Even if you include the third level sector you come up To 62% well clear of the 80-85% the media are reporting.
Figures came from here apparently : http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final.pdf

doc_17

Cheers for that. I kinda knew that. I was just being a bit sarcastic and giving out about these reporters being so sloppy with their figures. It's really annoying.

Third level student grants I think are also paid out of that budget as well

whiteandlight

Just spent the last hour reading through that budget. Can't believe FAS is now part of the DES and some of the things listed I never knew about!

whiteandlight

I didn't want to start another thread but thought it might interest people to know that the following quote is taken from the latest OECD report on education:

"The salaries of teachers and other education staff account for the largest proportion of current expenditure in all countries. In OECD countries, expenditure on compensation accounts for an average of 79% of current expenditure on primary, secondary and post-secondary non-tertiary education combined." pg 274

So despite what the media and Ruairi quinn would have you believe the fact that 80% of the budget (also disputed as incorrect but that's addressed in a previous post) would still not even bring us out of line with Europe.