Interval training

elvis jones

Right i've avoided this until now but tried it this even as part of a 6k run.

500m warm up
1.5k at 5.25 min/km
200m on - 200 off x5 for 2k
1.5k at 5.75 min/km
500m warm down

It was an after thought so i just did 200m flat out, 200m recovery.

Did i do it right ? If i was doing a pure interval session would it be 500m warm up X intervals and 500m warm down.

Any help, thoughts or advice ???

couerdelion

I'd suggest a much longer warm-up.

My interval session this week looked like;

2km warm up at 6:00min/km pace
10 x (400m @4:20min/km pace, 200m 9:00 min/km walk)
5 min cooldown.

I started off with 6 intervals a fair few weeks ago and have built up to 10 although I'm being a bit more realistic about my pace these days as I used to run them <4:00 min km pace. The rest time is slightly longer than the intense part.

Good article here --> http://www.coolrunning.com.au/expert/1997c005.shtml

elvis jones

My lap is 6k so I could push the warm up to 1k ?

My flat out was 4 to 4:30 and recovery was 7 to 7 to 7:30.

If I can do

1k warm up
5 sets of 200/200
1k good pace
2 sets 250/250
1k warm down

That would be my 6k and I'd be happy with that twice a week for a few weeks to build.

elvis jones

Here was today's interval session. Thoughts or feedback would be great.

700m warm up and stretchs
1.4k at 5:40 per km
250 on/off X 5 at 3:40 and 7:20
1.8K warm down at roughly 5:50 per km.

sconhome

Last night I did:

2k warm up at HM pace
Some dynamic stretching and drilsl, high knees, bum kicks
4 x 5mins at sub 5k pace (just a bit faster) with 90secs recovery
2k and a bit to cool down

Stretch and grid rolling at home.

Over the next couple of weeks I'll increase the intervals (4 x 6mins) and reduce the recovery (60 secs) and then go 5 x 5mins with 60 secs.

In mid May I'll start with more tempo based work for 10k racing & pacing.

For me the pacing rather than distance covered is more important (until it's time to update SBR challenge )

PS the longer reps suit me for building lactic acid tolerance rather than pure explosive speed. I'm built more for endurance than speed.

peter kern

elvis jones wrote: »

Here was today's interval session. Thoughts or feedback would be great.

700m warm up and stretchs
1.4k at 15:40 per km
250 on/off X 5 at 3:40 and 7:20
1.8K warm down at roughly 15:50 per km.

great swim set ;-0

what do you want to get out of this session
whats 10k pb
whats the race goal
how many hours do you train a week
injury problems
how much more time
how tired where you before the session how tired after how tired the next day

elvis jones

what do you want to get out of this session - Increase speed and weight loss

whats 10k pb - Actually i stick to 5k + 8k and that 25:12 & 41:34

whats the race goal - Sub 24 for 5k + sub 40 for 8k

how many hours do you train a week - Depends on "life" but i'd say 5. I'd like to get that up but as i said life gets in the way.

injury problems - Touch wood very little, orthotics cleared up lower leg probelms. Other than that i that gets me are chest infections.

how much more time -Available time to train is my problem with life getting in the way. I try to mainly run at lunch ( 10k is the time limit ) and longer at the weekend. Swim is in the evening when kids are in bed and cycle is one evening and weekend.

how tired where you before the session how tired after how tired the next -Honestly i'm always tired. I commute 17 hrs a week, two young kids, two jobs and trying to fit this in as well.

peter kern

at your level best average is the most important you dont have the time , you feel tired, best average gets good results
speed kills.... easy = waste of time ;-0

1250 m of work......waste of time and you recover way longer than effort

you have lunchtime 10m easy and then run 2x12,5-15min at best average pace ie way out and back is the same distance not easy but you cant be slower for 2nd effort 3-5 min rest in between goal to reduce rest .
ps somebody that trains 20 h a week is also always tired ;-0
but you dont do recovery weeks you have nothing to recover from ;-0

littlemsfickle

peter kern wrote: »

at your level best average is the most important you dont have the time , you feel tired, best average gets good results
speed kills.... easy = waste of time ;-0

1250 m of work......waste of time and you recover way longer than effort

you have lunchtime 10m easy and then run 2x12,5-15min at best average pace ie way out and back is the same distance not easy but you cant be slower for 2nd effort 3-5 min rest in between goal to reduce rest .
ps somebody that trains 20 h a week is also always tired ;-0
but you dont do recovery weeks you have nothing to recover from ;-0

I find this pretty confusing - what does 2x12, 5-15 mins mean? And how do you work out your "best average"?

peter kern

2 x12.5 - 15min means depending on the day, fitness , time
you do either 2 x 12,5 min reps or 2 x 15 min intervals or anything in between
there is many ways to do that but for the OP lets just keep it simple.and dont try to think too much especially the OP can deal with every single sec rest in his life to relax as he is already tired without training.

and if you must use a pb3 garmin ;-0 go out and back and cover the same distance out and back plus minus 50m ( preferably with side wind or a 400m-1k loop. how could those Irish marathon runner be so much faster in the 80s without a garmin .......
the rest I will answer you privately as 2-15 is not the best for you.
and you need the tread mil.

peter kern

thank you
and enjoy your training

duffyshuffle

elvis jones wrote: »

Wow, way to talk down to people with less than 50 posts on the forum.

Do you need a ladder to get down of your lofty perch ?

I'm tired because of everything thing else in my life, not training. I'm not getting into it but that comment was well out of order.

Personally i don't consider 1250m a waste of time as its a lot better than sitting on the couch scratching my back side and its part of 6k, should i be doing 60k so its "not a waste of time"

So what if i use a garmin, should i do it barefoot and naked beacuse thats how it was done before clothes were invented ?????

Remember this forum is for all types of users, beginners to those who have done ironman and other ultra events. Perhaps you shoould think of this before you comment and ;-0

Oh and i'm going to do 30 legths of the pool doing, should i or is that a waste of time also ?

Bit of an over reaction. He was saying forget the smaller harder intervals, do 25-30minutes of steadier work per run instead of the harder work you were doing which kills you without gaining much fitness. (as far as I read in to it)

elvis jones

duffyshuffle wrote: »

Bit of an over reaction. He was saying forget the smaller harder intervals, do 25-30minutes of steadier work per run instead of the harder work you were doing which kills you without gaining much fitness. (as far as I read in to it)

Thats what you think, i read it differently and stand by what i wrote.

peter kern

fact is that the Irish marathon runner in the late 80is where faster
there is a black an white to prove that.

People always listen what they want hear to but duffyshuffle hears what i said..
I asked questions, I see how much you can run, i see your fitness, I see you time constraints and tiredness and reply.

the 2nd post was for little miss frickle who has a podium at Irish senior champs, and no doubt, the talent to win Irish champs.

sconhome

Peter, if I understand you properly you are saying longer intervals at tempo pace are a better path to race results than all-out short course running repeats? (200-800m)

Also if doing an out and back run, to use your Garmin (I prefer Polar, 2 year warranty, accurate HRM....) so that you run a negative split coming back with more effort and a quicker time than the first half of the session?

nerraw1111

When I started intervals, I started with 800 metres, say x 2 with 90 seconds rest. I then increased the reps to 5. Then I increased the distance to 1km and did 2 reps and built it up again. Worked for me and my times shot up. I usually do a short warm up of 2km, and then 2km home. I’ve since increased the speed of intervals and build the reps back up again.

elvis jones

nerraw1111 wrote: »

When I started intervals, I started with 800 metres, say x 2 with 90 seconds rest. I then increased the reps to 5. Then I increased the distance to 1km and did 2 reps and built it up again. Worked for me and my times shot up. I usually do a short warm up of 2km, and then 2km home. I’ve since increased the speed of intervals and build the reps back up again.

Thats what i hope to do is increase the distance as the place i was doing them is 500m long as i hope to stretch mine out to 500m as my fitness increases but at the moment that's not possible. I hope to add 50m a week to get up to 500m while decreasing the recovery time.

elvis jones

I've spoken to Peter and we've sorted all out. I've deleted my comments and we can move forward ( in intervals;) )

peter kern

amphkingwest wrote: »

Peter, if I understand you properly you are saying longer intervals at tempo pace are a better path to race results than all-out short course running repeats? (200-800m)

Also if doing an out and back run, to use your Garmin (I prefer Polar, 2 year warranty, accurate HRM....) so that you run a negative split coming back with more effort and a quicker time than the first half of the session?

let me ask you the question, how many 15 or 16 stone athletes have you recommended to buy the fastest lightest shoe when they complain about numb feet , too much pounding in their current shoes and the shoe was on top to narrow and gave them blistes ?

at the same time iam sure you have recommneded a light good runner that came with kayanos to get something faster
horses for courses



2nd I am not saying anything new here as it is at least as old as Lydyard in the 1960s and was also key of the old irish marathon runners, but what tunney said yesterday about his swim session was the best thing i have read on this forum , this is how you know when you did a good session , that is what i call a good bang for your bug session , little bit tired , you know something is happening to your body but tomorow you can go out there and train again .

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

let me ask you the question, how many 15 or 16 stone athletes have you recommended to buy the fastest lightest shoe when they complain about numb feet , too much pounding in their current shoes and the shoe was on top to narrow and gave them blistes ?

at the same time iam sure you have recommneded a light good runner that came with kayanos to get something faster
horses for courses



2nd I am not saying anything new here as it is at least as old as Lydyard in the 1960s and was also key of the old irish marathon runners, but what tunney said yesterday about his swim session was the best thing i have read on this forum , this is how you know when you did a good session , that is what i call a good bang for your bug session , little bit tired , you know something is happening to your body but tomorow you can go out there and train again .

I was just asking if I understood you right in the advice you gave earlier in post #10.

Trig1

just want to butt in and say ..
I'm a 22 min 5k man if i dont have a swim and cycle before it.. did my first interval session tonight.. nice long 30min warm up at 10kph then 5 x 400m on with 200m off ... was averaging 15.5kph (this is flat out) for most of the 400's.. I cannot seem to transfer this into race day though. did a few duathlons and did my first tri last weekend.. came in 80th but again was disappointed with my run at 23.44... I thought the interval training would increase my speed or would I be better doing longer 5min or 10min pieces?? would be eager for some good advice on increasing my running speed as I'm there with the bike and i'm working hard on the swimming

sconhome

Trig1 the only way I saw an decrease in times was to run longer repeats of 1k at a pace 10-15 seconds faster than current 5k pace.

So if 25m 5k to run repeats at 4:45. This is much closer to your actual race pace and easier to sustain than all out sprints. You should be 5k racing at your lactate threshold whereas the sprints you're doing are fully anaerobic at flat out pace, you won't carry this into a 5k race.

As your race times decrease you should be decreasing your interval times and increasing the number of intervals to build tolerance in your muscles.

You also need to be doing brick session, running repeats after doing a bike session. We do a bike warm up, increase the pace for 4k, come off the bike run 800k (at sub 5k pace) back on the bike and repeat. This gives transition practise both on and off the bike too.

Thats what I've been doing & find it works.

elvis jones

amphkingwest wrote: »

Trig1 the only way I saw an decrease in times was to run longer repeats of 1k at a pace 10-15 seconds faster than current 5k pace.

So if 25m 5k to run repeats at 4:45. This is much closer to your actual race pace and easier to sustain than all out sprints. You should be 5k racing at your lactate threshold whereas the sprints you're doing are fully anaerobic at flat out pace, you won't carry this into a 5k race.

As your race times decrease you should be decreasing your interval times and increasing the number of intervals to build tolerance in your muscles.

You also need to be doing brick session, running repeats after doing a bike session. We do a bike warm up, increase the pace for 4k, come off the bike run 800k (at sub 5k pace) back on the bike and repeat. This gives transition practise both on and off the bike too.

Thats what I've been doing & find it works.

That seems like great advice, i'm out at lunch and must give it a try. What recovery would you use between the 1k repeats ?

couerdelion

elvis jones wrote: »

That seems like great advice, i'm out at lunch and must give it a try. What recovery would you use between the 1k repeats ?

I would start by using the same amount of time it takes you to run your repeats. So if you run the repeat in 5:30 then run easy for 5:30. As you progress bring down your recovery time.

RacoonQueen

Trig1 wrote: »

just want to butt in and say ..
I'm a 22 min 5k man if i dont have a swim and cycle before it.. did my first interval session tonight.. nice long 30min warm up at 10kph then 5 x 400m on with 200m off ... was averaging 15.5kph (this is flat out) for most of the 400's.. I cannot seem to transfer this into race day though. did a few duathlons and did my first tri last weekend.. came in 80th but again was disappointed with my run at 23.44... I thought the interval training would increase my speed or would I be better doing longer 5min or 10min pieces?? would be eager for some good advice on increasing my running speed as I'm there with the bike and i'm working hard on the swimming

Do you only do 400's? You really need to be doing longer reps if you want to improve your 5k time or more than 5 of them. Not a big fan of short reps myself, I'd much rather have 800m - 1 mile reps, or a LOT of short reps. 5x400m isn't really going to improve your speed endurance.

RacoonQueen

elvis jones wrote: »

That seems like great advice, i'm out at lunch and must give it a try. What recovery would you use between the 1k repeats ?

Generally, especially at 5k pace you'd do a recovery that's half your interval length so 500m or about 2 mins of walking/stretching/keeping warm for me when I do 1k reps.

Just realised I posted more or less the same thing as AK.

elvis jones

My 5k PB is 25:12 but i'm not fit for that yet so i'm running about 27 Min so 800M reps at 5:15 with a 200M recovery. I'd look to do that 4 times at the moment but increase as my fitness levels increase.

sconhome

couerdelion wrote: »

I would start by using the same amount of time it takes you to run your repeats. So if you run the repeat in 5:30 then run easy for 5:30. As you progress bring down your recovery time.

+1.

elvis jones wrote: »

That seems like great advice, i'm out at lunch and must give it a try. What recovery would you use between the 1k repeats ?

If you are running repeats on a 1k route then go 'out' at your interval pace, lets say 4 m/km and 'back' on your recovery in 6 minutes.

At the start I was doing 4 x 4minutes with 6 minutes easy recovery building to 4 x 5 with 5 minutes and then 4 x 6minutes with 4 minutes recovery. Now doing 4 x 5 minutes with 90 secs recovery.

I'll change this up next month to start stretching out to suit 10k races building to 6 x 6 minutes with 1 minute ( at better than current 10k pace ). I'd be doing a 2-3 k warm up and cool down at 'conversation' pace.

elvis jones

Ya its roughly 1k with a junction the middle that i might have to stop at but thats not a biggie.

I'll try 3 up and 3 down at lunch. There willl be a 1.5k warm up and warm down with that !

Thought ?

5:20 km out and 6:30 back ????

sconhome

Depends on how long lunch is.

I don't get a lunch break but if I did I'd go 10mins warm up and 3 x 4mins on (at 5:15 pace), 6 off and 10 mins cooldown and stretch. Total 50 mins.

Use your 1k route to guage your improvements, less focus on the distance as I suggested earlier and you can control your time better. You'll see yourself going further each time in the 4mins as you get fitter.

A trick I use is to spot your finish point for the first 4 mins in and try to beat that each repeat by 1 meter. The last one will be hard but you'll feel great accomplishing it.

elvis jones

amphkingwest wrote: »

Depends on how long lunch is.

I don't get a lunch break but if I did I'd go 10mins warm up and 3 x 4mins on (at 5:15 pace), 6 off and 10 mins cooldown and stretch. Total 50 mins.

Use your 1k route to guage your improvements, less focus on the distance as I suggested earlier and you can control your time better. You'll see yourself going further each time in the 4mins as you get fitter.

A trick I use is to spot your finish point for the first 4 mins in and try to beat that each repeat by 1 meter. The last one will be hard but you'll feel great accomplishing it.

I get roughly an hr which will include chagne, work out, shower and eat.

The place i use is 500m long or add another 500m or double back. So i'd do the double back to avoid having to stop at the junction.

Bambaata

I do 3 of the 4 runs in a week at lunch too. make sure you have everything set to go, sometimes even sneak off and get changed in the jacks a little beforehand under your work clothes. A preprepared sandwich or similar will always save time too. I can just about squeeze a 45min run, shower and eat in the hour lunch. But if anything disturbs that im late back so planning ahead is key.

That said the hour lunch here isnt all that strict as i clock in/out and the time beyond the hour is just taken from the flexi time which is always north of 0 anyway

elvis jones

Bambaata wrote: »

I do 3 of the 4 runs in a week at lunch too. make sure you have everything set to go, sometimes even sneak off and get changed in the jacks a little beforehand under your work clothes. A preprepared sandwich or similar will always save time too. I can just about squeeze a 45min run, shower and eat in the hour lunch. But if anything disturbs that im late back so planning ahead is key.

That said the hour lunch here isnt all that strict as i clock in/out and the time beyond the hour is just taken from the flexi time which is always north of 0 anyway

Not a filthy civil servant.................imagine being one of them;)

shotgunmcos

Bambaata wrote: »

I do 3 of the 4 runs in a week at lunch too. make sure you have everything set to go, sometimes even sneak off and get changed in the jacks a little beforehand under your work clothes. A preprepared sandwich or similar will always save time too. I can just about squeeze a 45min run, shower and eat in the hour lunch. But if anything disturbs that im late back so planning ahead is key.

That said the hour lunch here isnt all that strict as i clock in/out and the time beyond the hour is just taken from the flexi time which is always north of 0 anyway

+1 I have an hour for lunch too and if uber efficient I can get changed, run 45 mins, shower scoff a sandwich and be back at my desk on the hour. If I get delayed at all I either skip the run or run a couple of kms less.

Like Bambaata said you have to have a plan of attack. I've often stuck my gear on under my work clothes too. I have the exact same gear routine every time. The route and session is always planned. I have a 2 minute shower and eat half my lunch. I eat the other half an hour later when I can get a few minutes peace.

40-45 mins is a nice slot to do some quality work too. I'll get 2*15 minutes sweetspot reps done today with 3 minutes rest. I'll just have a shorter warm up and cool down than I'd ordinarily like which matter little

peter kern

I was just asking if I understood you right in the advice you gave earlier in post #10.
and I tried to reply asking if one can answers such a question as for some people its a no for others a yes .


that was actually a serious question ! as i see a correlations that those people believe that a few 400m intervals make them really fast in triathlon that those people also buy the lightest shoes and most expensive bikes..
they seem to look what the pros have and the they read the pro did a 400m interval session.....
what they often seem to forget is that the pros trained 10 years to get there. and usually have 5 % body fat.

to reply some other stuff from various people.

what people should be asking themselves is what will be the most needed pace or intensity I will be racing at and this is an intensity where most triathletes cant really go wrong .
running a 10 k race in a tri is closer to running a marathon ( ironically the fastest ITU guys run as fast off bike or a bit slower the as the top Marathon runner,in a marathon ) than running a 5 k road race.

the lady that won rotterdan marathon run 16,20min 5 k splits.....

the question is not as much how fast you are, its more how long you can hold a given pace.
running 400m (about 30 sec rest ) 200m (2o sec rest) 200 m 20 sec rest at 10 k olympic level 10 k pace can be a very good set but you need to do loads of reps not 1 or 2 . but it teaches you to run at operational speed not dream speed .


if your flat out 400s transfer into fast multisport runs happy days, if not you need to look for a change.

and there is an ironman coach that does pretty much year in year out 30 x 800 for his Ironman athlete the guess of the what pace is yours ( all I can say its slower than 10k oly pace ;-0........ so even 800 s can be a very good ' interval ' set.

The big problem with giving out sessions is what is good for 1 person can be bad for the other person ,one always needs to understand why they are doing the session.
there is a good book by pete pfitiznger called road racing for serious runners ( i hope thats what it is called ) and that gives a good idea what what training actually helps to achieve, I read it about 6-7 years ago and its a good entry. its still sold .http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/road-racing-for-serious-runners

this is all I can add.
with the only other advice dont read triathlon magazines.

Asking myself why on earth did I start to answer this tread Knowing da,n well that hose things always get out of hand . and there is so so many ways that can work .

and again sorry for saying its a waste of time, as no training is a waste of time, even if I honestly think that session is a waste of time
in the context you use it , it can be a great auxiliary run, but if its called a interval session (for which you had asked opinions) its not a interval session in my eyes for triathlon.
elvis to answer your private message the answer is. yes

\ps as for brick session as much as i love them but they really only make a scientifiacally proven difference for the first 1- 1,5 k running of the bike (check pub med ) I would use them for something different than running faster of the bike.

RacoonQueen

peter kern wrote: »

and there is an ironman coach that does pretty much year in year out 30 x 800 for his Ironman athlete the guess of the what pace is yours ( all I can say its slower than 10k oly pace ;-0........ so even 800 s can be a very good ' interval ' set.

What? :eek:

I'm still trying to pluck up the courage to do a 10x1k set.

peter kern

Tara Nolan few years ago did
did 16 x 1 k off a 4 or 5 hour bike ;-)

great set for getting mentally strong ...........

RacoonQueen

peter kern wrote: »

Tara Nolan few years ago did
did 16 x 1 k off a 4 or 5 hour bike ;-)

great set for getting mentally strong ...........

Christ. Sounds like I need to toughen up!

peter kern

dont copy sessions out off context, its never worse it.

Bambaata

elvis jones wrote: »

Not a filthy civil servant.................imagine being one of them;)

nah im not. it was implemented here as we work Saturdays and Sundays in some months. Traditionally we got paid overtime but now we are forced to take the days off (work in Croker so have to work a fair few matchdays)

Wish i was one of them. This flexi time is a pain, overtime was worth about 20% of total annual pay to me in previous years!

elvis jones

Bambaata wrote: »

nah im not. it was implemented here as we work Saturdays and Sundays in some months. Traditionally we got paid overtime but now we are forced to take the days off (work in Croker so have to work a fair few matchdays)

Wish i was one of them. This flexi time is a pain, overtime was worth about 20% of total annual pay to me in previous years!

I have flexi but might lose it if i change job in the next while. It will mean no more commuting and i could cycle/run to work:)

RacoonQueen

peter kern wrote: »

dont copy sessions out off context, its never worse it.

Don't worry. There's no fear of me doing a 5 hour bike never mind running 16x1k off it!

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

that was actually a serious question ! as i see a correlations that those people believe that a few 400m intervals make them really fast in triathlon that those people also buy the lightest shoes and most expensive bikes..

Oh I agree with you here! Just didnt understand the statement.

Using myself as example I know losing 500g off my body weight will make me much faster than worrying about getting a shoe 30g lighter. Same goes for the bike & wheels.

Thanks for the input on the training. Its appreciated.

sconhome

Everyone must be out doing intervals at lunchtime.

elvis jones

I'm just back !!!

Right time was tight but this is what i did and i enjoyed it more and think its a better direction to go in it was just shy of 7k in total.

700M warm up & stretches

Further 500M warm up

1k at 4:55 min/km
400M rec ( 7min/km )
1k at 4:55
400M rec
1k at 4:55
400M rec

1.5k at 6min/km warm down

Trig1

Some good advice here lads, looks like my 400 on 200 off wont cut it, heading out running now (on lunch break) as i'm working nights, I prefer a long warm up ~20 mins so plan to do 20 mins warm up then prob 1k on 500m off x3 or 4 depending on time...and warm down