How to revive the Irish language.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

he's such a native speaker that his very name is linguistically incorrect. Since when did the Irish language have a hard "V"?

Really Wibbs, this argument has been thrown around so often that I am surprised you are still ignorent of the explination, anyway his Grandfather, a noted authority on the Irish Language was of the view that the letter V should be included in the language as part of a reformed and simplified spelling.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

It's amazing when you stop to think about it. How in 2012, children at national school level still don't learn a foreign language. A modernisation effort is badly needed, and now has never been a better time to do it.

They did in many areas until the current government decided to put a stop to it, it will be gone come september.

conor.hogan.2

I learned some French in Primary school.

I learned more Irish and English, shocking to some despite what country this is.

Esperanto? I am out, what a pointless circular and stupid thread.

deise go deo

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I learned some French in Primary school.

I learned more Irish and English, shocking to some despite what country this is.

I did too, only found out much later that our French teacher was also a native Breton speaker, that would have been much more interesting to learn if you ask me.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

They did in many areas until the current government decided to put a stop to it, it will be gone come september.

I learned a little bit of German when I was at National School as well (mostly outside of school hours at it happened). But it was really too little to count.

It probably won't make a huge difference when it does stop. A more realistic program of promoting languages at primary school would have to be rolled out across all schools at a national level. Not like the sort of piecemeal effort we have at the moment.

LordSutch

MysticalRain wrote: »

It's amazing when you stop to think about it. How in 2012, children at national school level still don't learn a foreign language. A modernisation effort is badly needed, and now has never been a better time to do it.

Well the obvious point is that Irish is compulsory up to 6th year, which is shouldn't be. A well rounded education system would make a language compulsory until 6th year, but that language wouldn't have to be Irish.

Don't get me started on national school. We spent up to a third of our time on Irish at the school I attended.

Talking of national school/German, I recently & foolishly started a thread in another forum asking if there was any way my children could escape having to do Irish lessons (with German as a possible replacement subject), needless to say my suggestions didn't go down too well, end of.

Yesterday I attended an 'open day' with my little one to check out a primary school with a view to putting the name down for it. nice little school, new building, nice teachers & a lovely old piano (for assembly at 8:50am), all in all a very good looking vibe, and it even has Irish names attached to all the doors, days of the week in Irish, months of the year too! (its been a long time since I was in a primary school), and strangely enough I wasnt that phased by it (the Irish that is), Shomera, who or what is that then? must be the teacher's name? ah no says another parent, that means room :-) we laughed and then exchanged stories 'ah yes', when I did Irish we got the metre stick across the back of the legs if the homework wasn't up to speed, me too, etc etc etc, we smiled again, and I thought yeah. but that was decades ago!!!, this is a modern school and maybe Irish lessons won't be so bad for my little one after all? and I mean that. Maybe Irish won't be as painful as I remember, although on a practical level 'German' would mean much more us to us, as we visit German speaking side of the family in Germany & Switzerland at least twice a year. I still say though that Irish should not be mandatory right through to leaving cert (let the students have a choice of languages I say).

Ms.M

Wibbs wrote: »

With some. You may notice I broke the different types up. As the Sesame Street song went "one of these things is not like the other". How in gods name is it bigotry? The usual emotive stuff from the lobby and it makes little sense. Wut? ... only paraphrasing the "I hope you don't mind me being honest but.." line of debate. Personally I don't mind if you criticise me, but I prefer people being honest about it. Again I was referring to part of the image it had. Good god woman, what are you typing? "Pseudo points"? Where did I say one culture was more important. I would respectfully suggest taking off the personal worldview spectacles and reading again.

Well "cultural hobby" is the least reductive term you came up with on your little list. And I think "Good God woman what are you typing" is the most patronising comment that has been aimed my way on boards. You're being hypocritical if you're talking about being honest. Everything you say implies that one culture is more important... Please read your own posts, I don't need to read them again.

O'Cuiv is a plastic Culshie, born and bred in D4 Dublin, so god alone knows where he got his current accent, he's the scion of a powerful faux cultural clan, a cultural and political opportunist who learned well at the feet of his forebears. Forebears who had an unhealthy influence on this nation from it's inception. For me he is the very dictionary definition of a "Gombeen man" and his recent more public pronouncements copperfasten that. This is a man who while claiming to be a democratic agent, rode roughshod over the democratic will of the people of Dingle. Oh and was gung ho for us rejoining the British commonwealth and now he wants to cosy up to Sinn Fein? Eh W.T.F? I'm quite sure they're regarding him with equal and rightful suspicion and hand covered sniggers. IMHO his type should have been run out alongside the cassock and the armalite long ago. He makes Jackie Healy Rae look direct. At least you could see him and his lot coming a mile away. By the by, he's such a native speaker that his very name is linguistically incorrect. Since when did the Irish language have a hard "V"?

Look it up yourself. He is a native speaker. Born and bred through Irish. That was my only point.... written in one sentence. I'm not in the habit of defending him, I think you need a new thread. I don't like Bertie. He isn't an Irish-speaker. So.... oh wait actually that might be a pseudo-point. There's an example for you! Similar to your "all to often" list.

Of course you're Irish, so long as you extend that definition to the rest of us who aren't Irish speakers, or don't feel it to be as culturally important as you might. Too often among your ilk, don't, either subtly or overtly. I am NOT suggesting you do, but it's a common enough meme with too many.

Ok, so you "never said one culture was more important." That is EXACTLY what you're saying. Again, read your own posts.
Most of my friends speak English only. My husband is not a fluent Irish-speaker. I can't afford the kind of 'personal spectacle view' of Irishness that you can.

Oh, and then you completely contradict yourself here:

YOu see the fact you had to bracket the "speaking" part shows you're not comparing like with like. More emotive stuff, that nobody said.

Irish, to me, means speaking Irish. My husband and my friends are also Irish. I could call myself Gaelic and not Irish if I wanted too, or I could call myself Irish and my husband Anglo-Irish. That I don't does not negate my argument. The fact that you don't speak Irish does not lessen the fact that it is my cultural identity. I am most definitely comparing like with like. Replace Irish-speaking with Gaelic if you want. I'd rather be seen as Irish, minority or no, but whatever. At the same time, I would rather see people who don't speak Irish as Irish also. There is no such thing as a communal Irish culture.

+1 I only reserve a WTF for those where it is an image/cultural/political stick to beat others with and there are sadly enough of them.

Your posts to not reflect respect for or even consideration of people like Conor. And by the way, my grandparents spoke Irish, loads of Irish-speaker's did; does this fact somehow make it less a "cultural hobby" in your estimations?


So what? That's a red herring as an argument. You could make Esperanto, essentially a makey up language an "official language", but it wouldn't make it so. Esperanto has more google hits than Irish, so it might make sense, if you're fond of wearing back to front bebuckled shirts in rubber rooms, but it would be daft. IN the real world, it's official status if hardly an argument. It's an invented cultural pawn and a circular one at that. "Oh it's official, so we need translators that wanted it in the first place, even though few actually read this stuff in english. Double talk masked as culture.

Again, you seem to equate popularity with culture. If tomorrow everyone you knew professed a love for Jedward that would make it your culture. Good for you.

Lionel Messy

When I went back to education I was lucky to have an Irish teacher who had a light hearted approach to teaching Irish, which made it much more enjoyable.

I was an adult too, I think kids have a short attention span and just find the way Irish is being thought as boring, no one on MTV speaks it, it's not "cool" The key is making it more fun and that's down to the individual teaching it. Don't be a dour ****er.

Overflow

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

I seriously wonder what the hell we are doing wrong when it comes to teaching Irish. The level of Irish at which most people achieve from 14 years of education is ridiculous. How can the Department of Ed not realize something is seriously wrong, that if a student learns Irish for 14 years and can only remember a couple of phrases !

Granted English is easier to learn, but here in Norway kids start English very early also, but most are competent speakers by the time they are about 10 years old.

In my opinion the whole curriculum needs to be overhauled, stop forcing students to learn Irish poetry and memorizing verbs out of context and focus on conversational Irish, grammar and vocabulary building.

Overflow

Maybe we should get the Brits to pay for reform wah wah

Wibbs

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yeah, but that's true of learning any language. Yet after only six years of being taught the European languages, the majority of students have a firmer grasp and are more competent in French or German than they are in Irish. They're certainly not being immersed in the culture. So why is this? It's because the European languages are taught in a very different manner to Irish. You don't learn off essays that analyse literature by rote with little understanding of what you're actually saying. You are taught to construct your own sentences. You don't waste time being introduced to French literature, as it would be far too advanced. Instead you're taught practical French that you could use in a basic conversation.

+1000. The teaching of Irish seems to assume kids have a basic knowledge of it. In the majority of cases they don't. In the majority of cases it is a "foreign" language in practical terms. It's another example of the head in the sand thinking by those tasked with it's revival that has surrounded this subject from the get go. For a start those same people have to come to practical terms with the fact that for the majority it's a foreign language and teach it accordingly. I fear like the compulsion debate that this may be a mental step too far for some. Almost as if by admitting this, they also admit the patient is more sick than they claim. Nonsense of course. IMHO by not facing this they make the patient sicker. Start teaching Irish as a "foreign" language and maybe one day it wouldn't be.

desertcircus

In response to languagenerd:

1. I have no doubt that there are many great works from centuries ago written in Irish; however, because they go largely unread they're not a fixed part of Irish culture. Having no Irish has virtually zero impact on a person's ability to enter into Irish cultural conversation; all our common cultural touchstones are in English (including, oddly enough, Shakespearean tragedy). I honestly don't think an ability to speak Irish is an essential part of Irishness in any way, and I find it offensive when people say it is, as though gaelgoirs are more Irish than the rest of us.

2. Can't believe I made that mistake with Godot. I knew that and still managed to forget it...

Wibbs

MsM wrote:

Irish, to me, means speaking Irish. My husband and my friends are also Irish. I could call myself Gaelic and not Irish if I wanted too, or I could call myself Irish and my husband Anglo-Irish. That I don't does not negate my argument. The fact that you don't speak Irish does not lessen the fact that it is my cultural identity. I am most definitely comparing like with like. Replace Irish-speaking with Gaelic if you want. I'd rather be seen as Irish, minority or no, but whatever. At the same time, I would rather see people who don't speak Irish as Irish also. There is no such thing as a communal Irish culture.

I completely agree with your last line, however your first line does suggest that those who don't speak Irish aren't quite as Irish as those who do, or at least that's the impression.

Overflow wrote: »

Granted English is easier to learn,

I dunno about that. It's more than all over the place with odd spellings and grammar. OK it doesn't have genders as such, but look at the written word and try to voice it out phonetically and it sounds well odd. . Compared to a language like Spanish as an example. Spanish would be much more straightforward. If all you knew were the sounds of the alphabet and spoke a sentence out by rote, it wouldn't sound nearly as weird as the same thing in English. It appears easy, because A) you speak it and it's everywhere, a worldwide language. However if you had linguists sit down and build a worldwide lingua franca I really doubt English would get much of a look in(nor would Chinese).

In my opinion the whole curriculum needs to be overhauled, stop forcing students to learn Irish poetry and memorizing verbs out of context and focus on conversational Irish, grammar and vocabulary building.

This.

who is this

I'm always amazed how so many Irish people simultaneously point out how foreign investment is important and sustainable (apparently) due to our low tax (and the people must vigorously fight the EU for companies right to contribute as little tax as possible :rolleyes: ) and how we're crucially English-speaking.

Yet at the same time the government (supported by large amounts of the same population) spend large amounts of money attempting to remedy the latter.

Very few people raised bilingually are truly so: i.e. they are 100% bilingual for any and all day-to-day needs, but lack formal (and other rarely-used) vocabulary needed for business, specialist subjects etc. unless they actively undertake an effort to learn it (which many don't). I once had such a friend who couldn't read the word "gourmet" correctly.

My own grandmother grew up speaking Irish and has perfect English (barring occasional comprehensible nonstandard speech like "I done" etc.) ... except if you give her an even slightly formal text to read. Then she'll be completely lost.

Put it this way: if everyone in Ireland spoke Irish, would their English remain at the same level? Some would. But look at the situation as it is currently reversed: the vast majority clearly wouldn't.

And even eliminating the UK as the main English-speaking EU rival, even French-speaking, German-speaking and Spanish-speaking would be a lot more attractive to multinationals than Irish-speaking.

Culture and national identity are issues far larger and more complex than the language one speaks.

CruelCoin

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

Irish?

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!

Dead language, internationally useless, restrictive (poor assimilation of new words).

I will agree with you the moment you are able to convince the multinationals that their 400,000 jobs are still viable in Irish. Answer to that would be never.

Enkidu

Wibbs wrote: »

O'Cuiv is a plastic Culshie, born and bred in D4 Dublin, so god alone knows where he got his current accent,

It an odd story. His great-grandparents were native speakers. His grandfather was semi-native, but then learned his way back to native status. This was Shan Ó'Cuív, originally Seán Ó Caoimh. When he got involved in the Gaelic revival Seán had a major interest in the work and output of Peadar Ua Laoghaire, the most prolific writer of the time. Peadar Ua Laoghaire was one of the few highly educated native Irish speakers at the time. He was educated in Greek, Latin, Mathematics, European Literature and fluent in French and Spanish as his mother taught him those languages, so he had a European intellectual background. However he was also easily able to read Bardic Irish, often explaining the subtle nuances of poetic texts to experts from Conradh na Gaeilge, since he could just read them as easily as Modern Irish. So obviously he was greatly respected.

Seán basically decided to come up with a new spelling system based on the way Peadar Ua Laoghaire spoke. This is the Litriú Shimplí, often people say it's based on Munster Irish, but it's actually based on just Peadar Ua Laoghaire, if he said a word differently to most people in Munster, then the spelling reflected that. Seán took this so far that he began to spell his own name the way Ua Laoghaire said it (Shan Ó Cuív) and wrote all his books in it.

Seán's son was then head of Celtic studies in DIAS and raised as an Irish speaker. This was Brian Ó'Cuív, who still tried to use his Dad's spelling system. However nobody else took it up (basing the spelling of a whole language on the way one person speaks stoke most as odd). Éamonn is Brian's son.

Wibbs wrote: »

+1 I only reserve a WTF for those where it is an image/cultural/political stick to beat others with and there are sadly enough of them.

These people are a terrible shame. It's a pity they don't put all that energy they spend giving out to others about "hating our culture" into just learning the language themselves. Often they can't speak a word of it themselves. It honestly confuses me how they could be angry with somebody for not knowing something they don't know themselves.

I think many people still have an overly nationalist view of languages. See for instance attitudes that Ireland "should" speak Irish or that "In France they speak French". This idea that languages and countries are one to one. Instead of the world having several languages which don't necessarily coincide with lines on a map and people can choose what languages they wish to know and enjoy. That's people though.:)

dpe

Ooh look, another Irish language thread. Haven't seen one of those for at least 30 seconds.

For the record, to an outside ear Irish sounds like cats being put through a blender. While Welsh is equally useless, at least it sounds nice.

Enkidu

dpe wrote: »

For the record, to an outside ear Irish sounds like cats being put through a blender. While Welsh is equally useless, at least it sounds nice.

You do know Irish and Welsh have very similar phonologies. What is it about Welsh you find nice in comparison to Irish?

Crooked Jack

LordSutch wrote: »

As a matter of interest would you include my sentiments in post #160 as being negative towards the Irish language, or productive?

Id consider them to be an essential part of the discussion needed on the language. What you were outlining was a reasoned argument. My issue is with some people here who are opposed to the language because it's "bogger" or has no monetary value.
"why are we spending money on this when there is unemployment/recession/bailout blah blah blah".
People may dismiss me as being a romanticist or idealist for saying this but frankly Irish people are far too concerned with money and economics these days. Every time you try to do something related to culture, arts, heritage or the like you get these europhilic west brits whinging that it's a waste of already stretched money, which is short sighted in the extreme. Economies ebb and flow, that's the nature of them, but if this country loses its soul it's gone forever

dpe

Enkidu wrote: »

You do know Irish and Welsh have very similar phonologies. What is it about Welsh you find nice in comparison to Irish?

Welsh sounds musical/lyrical, Irish sounds like a Norwegian gargling.

Crooked Jack

who is this wrote: »

I'm always amazed how so many Irish people simultaneously point out how foreign investment is important and sustainable (apparently) due to our low tax (and the people must vigorously fight the EU for companies right to contribute as little tax as possible :rolleyes: ) and how we're crucially English-speaking.

Yet at the same time the government (supported by large amounts of the same population) spend large amounts of money attempting to remedy the latter.

Very few people raised bilingually are truly so: i.e. they are 100% bilingual for any and all day-to-day needs, but lack formal (and other rarely-used) vocabulary needed for business, specialist subjects etc. unless they actively undertake an effort to learn it (which many don't). I once had such a friend who couldn't read the word "gourmet" correctly.

My own grandmother grew up speaking Irish and has perfect English (barring occasional comprehensible nonstandard speech like "I done" etc.) ... except if you give her an even slightly formal text to read. Then she'll be completely lost.

Put it this way: if everyone in Ireland spoke Irish, would their English remain at the same level? Some would. But look at the situation as it is currently reversed: the vast majority clearly wouldn't.

And even eliminating the UK as the main English-speaking EU rival, even French-speaking, German-speaking and Spanish-speaking would be a lot more attractive to multinationals than Irish-speaking.

Culture and national identity are issues far larger and more complex than the language one speaks.

That's preposterous. If it were taught from an early age there would be no such issue. look at all the countries across Europe, Asia, Africa and America that are bilingual. It's just a matter of making it part of parcel of early education, nobody is suggesting that tomorrow everybody switch to irish and that's it.

Crooked Jack

CruelCoin wrote: »

Irish?

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!

Dead language, internationally useless, restrictive (poor assimilation of new words).

I will agree with you the moment you are able to convince the multinationals that their 400,000 jobs are still viable in Irish. Answer to that would be never.

Perfect example of what I mean. No monetary value and therefor useless. It's sad that some people think the only way to present yourself as a forward looking, modern Irish person is to denigrate and ridicule the culture you came for. Pathetic.

TeddyTedson

Have to dole drawn and filled out through Irish. That would learn yee quick enough, hah!

Enkidu

dpe wrote: »

Welsh sounds musical/lyrical, Irish sounds like a Norwegian gargling.

Well Norwegian is one of the softest languages in Europe. I just don't really understand what you could be referring to. Welsh has more harsh consonants than Irish and has similar intonation, could you give a real example otherwise I suspect this is just a stereotype you've concocted.

Enkidu

Here is an Irish song, how does this sound like "cats in a blender":

golden lane

why not have a referendum.......then the result can be quoted...

dpe

Enkidu wrote: »

Here is an Irish song, how does this sound like "cats in a blender":

I wasn't aware Irish speakers went about their daily business by bursting into song, it must be a regular Rogers & Hammerstein extravaganza out in the Gaeltacht.

For reference, Welsh, sing-song intonation:

Irish, not:

golden lane

Enkidu wrote: »

Here is an Irish song, how does this sound like "cats in a blender":

well, i know this song...and i do sing it to myself on occasions.....

and a great catchy song it is........

i left ireland over fifty years ago....and my memories of the irish language is, that was a complete waste of school time....

deise go deo

This thread is about how Irish can be revived, not why it should be or how it sounds, they are subjective questions that everyone will have their own opinion on and trying to argue with someone about them is not going to get you anywhere because your opinion on them is based on your own experience and values, something an argument on boards, no matter how well put, is unlikely to change.

As to how Irish can be revived, I think the process I outlined earlier, of which the below vidieo on Carlow is an example, is a sucessful way to lead language shift in a given area, be it in a Town, urban or rural area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5Yx3xkIu0Q

Some will no doubt point out that Carlow is still a predomanantly English speaking town, and of course they would be right, but Language shift is not something you can achieve in 30-40 years. What has happened however is that more people are fluent in Irish in the town than was previously the case, especially among young peolple, the range of activities and events at which Irish is spoken have increased and other groups, such as business in the town have started using the language more.
The next step in the process is the opening of a cultural center that can act as the focal point for developing an Irish speaking community in the town, this is something that has support from the local community.

This is the same process that is being carried out in West Belfast and other areas of the country, and it is succeeding in increasing the use of Irish, and the numbers of fluent speakers in those areas.

dpe

deise go deo wrote: »

This thread is about how Irish can be revived, not why it should be or how it sounds, they are subjective questions that everyone will have their own opinion on and trying to argue with someone about them is not going to get you anywhere because your opinion on them is based on your own experience and values, something an argument on boards, no matter how well put, is unlikely to change.

Fair enough, but I still think there's a question to be asked before you ask how Irish can be revived, which is why should it be revived? I still haven't seen anyone articulate that other than vague arguments about culture.

I actually think Ireland is ahead of the curve here; the world is going to end up with two or three primary languages anyway (English, Spanish and Mandarin) and everything else will be a hobby language. May as well get on the assimilation train now. Even the French will have to accept the inevitable eventually.