Batmen ?

OS119

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

That is a very ill-informed comment and inane.

you are suggesting that Irish Army Brigadiers have to claim Social Welfare in order to feed, clothe and house their families?

tac foley

According to this - http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/AppendixHigherrep.pdf

A Brigadier earns just over eu108,680 p.a.

Even in present-day RoI that is sufficent to enable him to join any golf club he cares to apply for.

I'm not about to send any food parcels to help the plight of a general officer any time soon.

tac

neilled

Delancey wrote: »

Given that the Taoiseach at one time earned more than the US President I would well believe that.
Having said that , I have seen posts on this forum that say in the aftermath of pay cuts , levies , etc some Defence Forces personnel are having to turn to Social Welfare benefits to make ends meet.

here no claims that senior officers are turning to social welfare, however a pte or junior nco with a few children who's partner has been made redundant could well find themselves in the position where they are entitled to claim various social welfare allowances to make ends meet.

Net pay was greater, however the benefits that come with being a member of the US military (or the brits) both during and post service far exceed anything in the DF.

These benefits include subsidised housing, dedicated tax free stores (the PX), great recreational facilities (swimming pools etc), advances in pay and schemes to get members on the property ladder, first class free healthcare, education and resettlement training opportunities, never mind the "informal" benefits and discounts.

That needs to be borne in mind - looking at net pay doesn't give the entire picture.

pedroeibar1

OS119 wrote: »

you are suggesting that Irish Army Brigadiers have to claim Social Welfare in order to feed, clothe and house their families?

No, that never was my suggestion. You posted a comment

OS119 wrote: »

sorry pal, but if a Lt with 7 years service earns €39k, i think the idea that a Brigadier and his family of half-starved urchins will be cooking road-kill on a one-bar fire and hoping the bailiffs won't see the light from their single candle is stretching incredulity.
did i not read somewhere that the head of the Irish Army earnt more than the head of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff?

which I thought was both inaccurate and frivolous.


Your comment was posted in response to

Kosseegan wrote: »

.... Most irish Generals do not reach that rank until they are in their 50s. Most of their career is spent as a Captain or Commandant. The pay is Junior Managerial Civil Service level. That is the pay scale on which they buy their houses. By the time they make the Brigadier level they have a few short years before retirement. Trading up to a big house is not feasible as they are too old for a mortgage and most have university age children at that stage in their lives.
American Generals can be appointed in their 30s and have numerous benefits and allowances uin addition to their pay.

I’m not certain about today, but my knowledge of the PDF when growing up exactly matches what is written above by Kosseegan.
The Corps an officer was in effectively trapped him at a certain rank. A command & Staff course was done at Capt. rank after which the officer if lucky made it to Comdt. where he languished, waiting for someone to die or retire, which allowed for promotion. At that rank the pay scale is €51-59k, hardly a major amount for a highly qualified individual. Add to that the younger (forced) retirement ages of Comdt.’s and Lt. Col.’s so effectively the clock was ticking against them. Many of the officers I knew growing up rarely made it past Lt. Col., most went out as Comdt.s

OS119

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

...Many of the officers I knew growing up rarely made it past Lt. Col., most went out as Comdt.s

of course they do, its the same everywhere - you do know about the Army structure don't you, the nasty, unforgiving pyramid that says that the higher the rank, the less numbers are required? you can take comfort in the fact that in the IA when an officer is no longer on the promotion track he gets to stay in - in most other Armies its 'up or out', with far more candidates going 'out' than 'up' - no 45yo Captains in the BA/US A.

sorry, but if you're looking for sympathy for middle ranking officers because of the financial hardship they suffer i'll point you in the direction of the Oxford English Dictionary where you'll find it between Sh1t and Syphallis...

pedroeibar1

OS119 wrote: »

of course they do, its the same everywhere - you do know about the Army structure don't you, the nasty, unforgiving pyramid that says that the higher the rank, the less numbers are required? you can take comfort in the fact that in the IA when an officer is no longer on the promotion track he gets to stay in - in most other Armies its 'up or out', with far more candidates going 'out' than 'up' - no 45yo Captains in the BA/US A.

sorry, but if you're looking for sympathy for middle ranking officers because of the financial hardship they suffer i'll point you in the direction of the Oxford English Dictionary where you'll find it between Sh1t and Syphallis...

That post matches your last for non-sequitors. Army structure is no different to management structure anywhere, - some stay in the middle ranks or change jobs if they have ambition. Nobody is forced out. Another difference is that in most foreign armies there is tradition, the Irish Army is too young to have that. Any of the ex-British Army officers I know signed in for X years, often as part of a family tradition and also as a means of obtaining a degree. Most continue their careers in the TAs alongside a professional career elsewhere. As for your concluding (puerile) remark it is not worth comment.

Delancey

I have always though that service in the US forces does carry a lot of benefits both during and after enlistment . We in Europe tend to underestimate the importance of free Healthcare but in the US that is something of fundamental importance - they have a big network of ' VA ' hospitals . I think the US military is also generous in 3rd level education funding , again something we in Europe tend to overlook.

A cousin of mine was KIA in WW2 while serving as a US Army Air Force gunner - his family got a very decent lump sum and benefits package after his death , I suspect an RAF gunner's family woulld have got a fraction of that.

I reviewed my cousins service record recently and at his time of death his pay was $170 per month , factor in ' flying pay' and he was paid around £50 STG per month - would his RAF equivalent have even been on a quarter of that ?

BTW I have heard lots of stories of cheap drink in Irish Army messes - is is tax free ?

Poccington

Delancey wrote: »

Given that the Taoiseach at one time earned more than the US President I would well believe that.
Having said that , I have seen posts on this forum that say in the aftermath of pay cuts , levies , etc some Defence Forces personnel are having to turn to Social Welfare benefits to make ends meet.

I work with a few lads who have to claim FIS.

neilled

tac foley wrote: »

Just for the record - as far as the British Army is concerned [obviously manic moran can tell us about the US Army] -

1. Subsidised housing? Living on the base in the regimental lines is not only sensible but necessary in today's Armed Forces, but I'm not sure that the word subsidised applies here. Are you implying that our soldiers get cheap accommodation? How about the Irish military and their on-base family accommodations? Are they cheaper than renting off-base? Is it even practical for them to do so? We lived in a married qurter on our return to UK back in 1984 only as long as it took to buy our own place a few miles away.

2. The NAAFI organisation does not now and never has provided tax-free anything to HM Forces in the UK. Overseas - ie, Germany - is a different matter. Spirituous liquids/alcoholic beverages and tobacco products have always been severely rationed, BTW, so that you can't buy 100,000 at a time and flood the local market on your RTUK.

2. Advances in pay? Never heard of it. Who would need an advance of pay these days anyhow?

3. Schemes to get 'members' [members of what?] on the property ladder? There ARE visits by local commercial ventures - housing agents, property developers and so on who might be amenable to offer their services to HM Forces. Members of the military are no less keen to become house owners, albiet within certain constraints - a unit that moves around the planet en masse is not the most stable basis for house-ownership, although many folks I know rent their properties out while they are overseas getting blown up, maimed and shot to sh!t on behalf of those who don't.

4. We ALL get free health care in the UK - why should the Armed forces be any different?

5. We all get free education for our children, too, just like every human citizen does .

6. 'Informal' discounts? Do you mean like the police, fire and ambulance services get? Explain, please.

7. I can safely assure that unlike the US and Canada, where vets are elligible for all kinds of discounts on every kind of service and provision you can think of, there is little or nothing at all like that in the UK for vets or even serving personnel. I can rent a car from any of the Big five in Canada or the USA on arrival back home sure in the knowledge that I am entitled to at least a 10% discount and special deal on everything except the insurance package - try that here in yUK and you'd get laffed out of the premises.

BTW, if you feel that the Armed forces are getting unfair advantages over the civilian population, remember that there is nothing stopping YOU from sharing these benefits - all you have to do is to offer to lay down your life in the service of YOUR country for a certain number of years, like I did for thirty three.

tac

1. Irish military accommodation for families is a thing of the past. Whilst we are now seeing a correction in the insanity that was the housing market I pity any serviceman/woman who bought in dublin during the last decade. Regimental accomodation simply wasn't an option - its been long phased out bar 50 or so "overholders" - troops went out and rented on the overheated market or bought.

2. I referred to the PX. I'm aware NAFFI is a different beast.

3. "The Long Service Advance of Pay (LSAP) is an interest-free Army loan of 182 days’ pay, up to the value of £8500, to help you put a deposit on a property. And if you’ve served between four and six years you could also borrow up to 50% of the value of a property (up to £75,000) through the Armed Forces Home Ownership Scheme (Pilot). "

4. The three best letters that can be used in an arguement about N.I joining the republic at some stage : NHS. Everyone gets free treatment - not so in Ireland. Paddy the Pte or Fintan the Comdt often have insurance taken out for their families, something that those in the BA need not worry about

5. Cost of going to school in ROI vs UK system : Much higher. Never even heard of the concept of buying a single textbook in school - was shocked when i discovered the cost of putting a child through the Irish system and the high "voluntary" contributions that are sought. There is a BA allowance for putting the kids in boarding school if you so wish - not the case in the DF.

6 http://www.forcesdiscounts-mod.co.uk/ My local outdoor shop doesn't even give 10% off!

7. British Forces do have a resettlement training thats given (I do recall one raf budgie used it to train as a stripper) the yanks have various post service back to education benefits - there's nothing like that for the DF.

The jist is this I don't begrudge the BA or yanks any of their benefits, the BA in particular could do with a pay rise, however- pay isn't the be and end all - the overall package has to be compared and particularly for the OR's the "extra" money they were supposedly making just got swallowed up by the higher cost of living and providing the basics for their families.

Poccington

Delancey wrote: »

BTW I have heard lots of stories of cheap drink in Irish Army messes - is is tax free ?

It's certainly cheaper than the price you'd pay in a pub.

Messes are dead on their feet though, the drink culture of years ago in the DF are long gone. The only people who'd really use the mess these days are lads who live in, who use it mostly as a means to watch tele and the odd function.

If you'd like to class cheap drink as a benefit Irish soldier recieve compared to other countries, I may have to question your sanity.

Delancey

Poccington wrote: »

If you'd like to class cheap drink as a benefit Irish soldier recieve compared to other countries, I may have to question your sanity.

Not at all , really just curious as over the years I've met people who were amazed at how cheap drinks were in the mess , agree that its not much of a ' perk '.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Poccington wrote: »

The only people who'd really use the mess these days are lads who live in, who use it mostly as a means to watch tele and the odd function..

'The boulevard of broken dreams' - the route the MLI lads take from their living in lines to the mess

dahamster

Chanel Cool Statue wrote: »

'The boulevard of broken dreams' - the route the MLI lads take from their living in lines to the mess

:D tis a big fall from SLO to MLI !!

gizmo555

According to this report in today's (05/05/12) Irish Times, the Indian army is set to abolish the batman system in its units:

THE INDIAN army plans to abolish the colonial system of batmen or personal orderlies it inherited from the British military at independence 65 years ago.

Once implemented – sometime later this year – it would release some 30,000 combatants, or more than a regular army corps, allowing them to dump menial household chores and to rejoin their units as regular soldiers . . .

I hope this kind of thing never went on in the PDF!

For officers batmen were meant to be “runners”, to convey their orders to subordinates, maintain their uniform and personal equipment and drive vehicles.

They often acted as the officer’s bodyguard and in deceptively vague military jargon were required to perform other “miscellaneous tasks” demanded by the officer.

This latter nebulous responsibility in the British Indian army, particularly in modern day Pakistan’s North West Frontier, at times ended up as a euphemism for sexual liaisons between some officers and their batmen.

Many 19th and 20th century regimental histories hint broadly at steamy relationships between officers and Pathan batmen which, when they became known, resulted either in dishonourable discharges or the honourable alternative of suicide to sidestep regimental and familial disgrace.