Final Fantasy 7....by a non gamer

Retr0gamer

LadyE wrote: »

But how??? Even before my timer hit the end he hit me and the damage they did was always more than the Hp I had!

There's a whole lot of boring work to do before you can even try to take this guy on. First you have to do a boring quest to get the underwater materia to get rid of his timer. Then you have to level up like crazy and also use Yuffies morph skill to turn monsters into special items that permanently increase stats and increase everything to about 255, you can't get any higher. Even then you've got to go in and cheese the hell out of him using some nasty Mime materia exploits. It takes hours to prepare and ultimately isn't really worth it.

snausages

You don't really need to do any of that, especially the source-morphing stuff. I remember in one of my playthroughs I just beat the crap out of him with Yuffie's Conformer and some counterattack materia, although you really shouldn't equip too much as he has a move that gets stronger the more materia you equip. Lvl. 60 is a decent enough level. You should definitely get some mystile, though you probably have about 2 already if you've beaten it.

Ruby Weapon is different. I can't remember exactly what I did but I know in one playthrough I grinded more than was really necessary and found a materia combo that let me beat him without touching the controller. Was fun. :pac:

edit: It's also possible to beat him without underwater materia. 20 minutes is usually more than enough unless you're spamming KOTR, which is a boring strategy anyway. Barrett's Missing Score is uesful as well with counter-attack

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I thought FFVI was better in every way. The story is a lot better, FFVII's is a messand not particularly good. The esper system while not idea is a lot better than the materia system and the characters have unique abilities while FFVII characters are just materia holders. The soundtrack is on of the series best and it still looks amazing while FFVII is looking very ropey. The game changer that changes how the game is approached in the second half of the game is the series high point for me.

I can't agree that FF7 looks ropey either.

The actual sprites you control on screen when exploring the world look bad now, no question. But the backgrounds are all pre-rendered and still look great.

I think the Battle graphics are remarkably good and somewhat 'cleaner' than those in FF8 and FF9.

I think when people say FF7 has aged badly they are probably putting too much emphasis on your controllable 3D sprite with a lack of facial features.

Retr0gamer

It's nothing to do with the 3D models and prerendered backgrounds. It's more the inconsistent look of the game once you leave Midgar. The art direction is all over the place and the CGI cutscenes vary wildly in quality. FFVI on the other hand came out when 2D sprite based art was at it's pinnacle. Very few games will ever top how gorgeous FF6 looks.

snausages

This looks pretty incredible.



But so are these




I really don't care what technology it's on or how many conflicting art styles there is, they're both amazing looking games, though VII remains for me a firm favourite.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's nothing to do with the 3D models and prerendered backgrounds. It's more the inconsistent look of the game once you leave Midgar. The art direction is all over the place and the CGI cutscenes vary wildly in quality. FFVI on the other hand came out when 2D sprite based art was at it's pinnacle. Very few games will ever top how gorgeous FF6 looks.

Ah here, first you said the graphics were "ropey" and now when called on it you are saying you were referring to the "art direction" rather than the actual quality of the graphics on their own merits!

snausages

In one of the pictures above (Aeris's house) there's a bit just before where you see a load of people living out of bins and burnt out buses and stuff. That's one of the things I like about FFVII, the sheer incongruity. The proportions of the house add to the surreality of it. Much better than VIII's boring 'realistic' world. IX does look very nice though.

Corel, the prison and the Gold Saucer is another good example, one that was worked into the story as well.

Retr0gamer

I gave you my definition of what I made by the loose term 'ropey'. If you want to change the definition of what it is in your own head and pretend it's a contradiction then knock yourself out.

snausages

Other thing as well is that the distance travelled on the world map isn't indicative of the actual distance between towns. Kalm is actually quite far away from Midgar. The divergent art-styles, 'ropey' or otherwise, really work at giving each area its own unique personality imo. I'd hate it if everything looked like Junon and Midgar.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I gave you my definition of what I made by the loose term 'ropey'. If you want to change the definition of what it is in your own head and pretend it's a contradiction then knock yourself out.

Now now, don't get precious.

Which is it then? Do the graphics in FF7 (excluding the dodgey character models when exploring) look ropey?

Or is it just that you somehow feel the art style didn't match up throughout the game? (presumably you wanted every house and village to look identical as they did in FF6! - although that was understandable given the restraints of the time).

Retr0gamer

I gave my explanation already. Why don't you read over it again if you want your answer instead of making those strawman arguments like you just did. Or maybe you're better off in your delusion that by some how catching me out will make all that criticism of your favourite, beyond criticism game all go away.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I gave my explanation already. Why don't you read over it again if you want your answer instead of making those strawman arguments like you just did. Or maybe you're better off in your delusion that by some how catching me out will make all that criticism of your favourite, beyond criticism game all go away.

Ah here, if you want to make the same incessant criticisms of the game every.single.time someone has a thready even remotely related to JPRGs then please be prepared to have them challenged.

Also, prepare to have them challenged without being so dismissive.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's more the inconsistent look of the game once you leave Midgar. The art direction is all over the place and the CGI cutscenes vary wildly in quality

If that is the sum of your argument as to why the game looks "ropey" then I don't think you can label me as some kind of a fanatic for questioning it. Your argument still seems to be based on the stylised nature of the graphics rather than the actual graphical quality as was the original point.

Please though, continue to advance the argument with cries of "I've explained already" or "you can't take criticism of your favourite game".

Retr0gamer

I really don't my views getting dismissed and discussed but if you're going to get to act silly and get offended by them or make silly strawmen arguments then be prepared to have your comments dismissed. You're obviously looking for something more than a discussion on the game. It's a videogame, discuss it, don't get upset over it.

There's no doubt that the quality of the pre-rendering and matt painted backgrounds in FFVII still stand up but juxtaposing them with the low poly gouraud shaded models is jarring. The change in art direction and tone between different towns is jarring. Ending up in a ski resort and going snow boarding is jarring when some one just died. Having a chocobo ranch around the corner from a dystopian, decaying metropolis is jarring. Having a town that looks like feudal japan in a sci-fi world is jarring. The change in model quality between field and battle is a bit weird looking and it's even weirder when model quality changes dramatically between CGI sequences. These inconsistencies make the game feel very disjointed for me and many others and it's very obvious that the game was thrown together from whatever assets were at hand.

Want me to spell it out again in another paragraph?

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I really don't my views getting dismissed and discussed but if you're going to get to act silly and get offended by them or make silly strawmen arguments then be prepared to have your comments dismissed. You're obviously looking for something more than a discussion on the game. It's a videogame, discuss it, don't get upset over it.

There's no doubt that the quality of the pre-rendering and matt painted backgrounds in FFVII still stand up but juxtaposing them with the low poly gouraud shaded models is jarring. The change in art direction and tone between different towns is jarring. Ending up in a ski resort and going snow boarding is jarring when some one just died. Having a chocobo ranch around the corner from a dystopian, decaying metropolis is jarring. Having a town that looks like feudal japan in a sci-fi world is jarring. The change in model quality between field and battle is a bit weird looking and it's even weirder when model quality changes dramatically between CGI sequences. These inconsistencies make the game feel very disjointed for me and many others and it's very obvious that the game was thrown together from whatever assets were at hand.

Want me to spell it out again in another paragraph?

Basically then it doesn't look ropey because that entire paragraph is based on your personal taste and concerns about the direction or suitability of the graphics and art rather than the quality.

Thats fine but don't tell me the game is X and then go on a big rant explaining why it is Y.

Retr0gamer

Sure every opinion is personal taste, it's a matter how good your taste is. Anyway I don't see how anyone but the most fanatical fanboy can't agree with even some of what I just mentioned even if they don't think it's a big problem since a lot of it is fact.

snausages

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Having a chocobo ranch around the corner from a dystopian, decaying metropolis is jarring.

Well, like I said above that isn't necessarily the case. The ranch is actually very far away from Midgar. The world map is just that, an approximation of the actual game world of FFVII. Otherwise Cloud and the lads are about the same size as a building.

As for the other stuff, I disagree for the reason posted earlier and not because I'm a fanatical fanboy. I just love how different everything looks in FFVII. I don't see why fantasy worlds in video games need to strive for realism and tonal consistency in every little thing. VII was such a fun adventure because of all these little mini-worlds you could discover with their own unique personalities and culture. Because really, at the end of the day we play these things for escapism.

Retr0gamer

I don't mind tonal change, sure it can't be always depressing or light hearted especially in such a long game. It just feels to me that some locations such Wutai, Costa Del Sol or whatever the snow place feel like they are from a completely different game. Later games that used the same pre-rendered style as FFVII managed to be varied but kept everything looking consistent throughout the game. It's probably because of the lessons learned from FFVII.

Anyway that's personal opinion. I don't think people can deny the wild swings in CGI quality and the low polygon characters on the 2D backgrounds not quite looking right. FFVIII was a big improvement in that regard.

snausages

It was an improvement, but VIII's world was completely soulless. Going from Dollett to Timber to Delling was a bit fat 'meh'. Esthar was the only place I really liked, and that was because it was so different. Also liked the Shumi Village. For me, VIII didn't become really good until it went completely off the rails and introduced time-travelling sorceresses and Time Kompression. Same with VII, the climax with Zack was a major game changer.

Pure Loonamus

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I don't mind tonal change, sure it can't be always depressing or light hearted especially in such a long game. It just feels to me that some locations such Wutai, Costa Del Sol or whatever the snow place feel like they are from a completely different game. Later games that used the same pre-rendered style as FFVII managed to be varied but kept everything looking consistent throughout the game. It's probably because of the lessons learned from FFVII.

Anyway that's personal opinion. I don't think people can deny the wild swings in CGI quality and the low polygon characters on the 2D backgrounds not quite looking right. FFVIII was a big improvement in that regard.

Just going to point out that one of the reasons the places/towns are so contrasting and distinct looking(no matter how out of place) is because being a first time player trying to remember where you are going/where you have been can be pretty confusing in a game like FFVII, which Red I'm sure pointed out during this thread that Mrs Red was trying to get back to a place but couldn't remember..

Wutai looks sort of like "feudal japan" is because when you meet Yuffie just before arriving there, you find that this is the sort of town where she might have grown up in. Same goes for Red in Cosmos Canyon.. I'm not an expert on JRPG's but that is just my opinion on why it would be done as such..

Retr0gamer

snausages wrote: »

It was an improvement, but VIII's world was completely soulless. Going from Dollett to Timber to Delling was a bit fat 'meh'. Esthar was the only place I really liked, and that was because it was so different. Also liked the Shumi Village. For me, VIII didn't become really good until it went completely off the rails and introduced time-travelling sorceresses and Time Kompression. Same with VII, the climax with Zack was a major game changer.

Well I was taking about the characters not fitting with the backgrounds rather than how soulless it was. FFVIII was definitely a lot more soulless.

Pure Loonamus wrote: »

Just going to point out that one of the reasons the places/towns are so contrasting and distinct looking(no matter how out of place) is because being a first time player trying to remember where you are going/where you have been can be pretty confusing in a game like FFVII, which Red I'm sure pointed out during this thread that Mrs Red was trying to get back to a place but couldn't remember..

Wutai looks sort of like "feudal japan" is because when you meet Yuffie just before arriving there, you find that this is the sort of town where she might have grown up in. Same goes for Red in Cosmos Canyon.. I'm not an expert on JRPG's but that is just my opinion on why it would be done as such..

I felt it was more a case of 'OK guys we have a feudal japanese town rendered, a ski resort and a Sunny coastal resort. Each one took a couple of months to render in the rendering farms, the project is going off the rails and we don't have the time to render anymore scenes. Make them fit!'.

I felt the story behind the areas were made to fit the area rather than the areas being rendered to meet the of objectives of the narrative. The worst offender being Wutai. It really doesn't look like a place that had been decimated in a war just a few years before hand.

snausages

That same design philosophy can probably be seen today in FFXIII, where Cid dies and suddenly shows up again in an extremely elaborate 5 minute cutscene at the start of Act 12. Then he dies again, twice in the space of a pretty short segment of time. Bit like the Star Wars prequels in that respect.

funky penguin

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I felt the story behind the areas were made to fit the area rather than the areas being rendered to meet the of objectives of the narrative. The worst offender being Wutai. It really doesn't look like a place that had been decimated in a war just a few years before hand.

I always thought that was a small commentary on how quickly Japan got back on it's feet after WW2. Probably looking far too much into it, but it's not beyond the realms of possibilities that a city can rebuild after a short time. Also, I always found it a little sad that Wutai had become this tourist vacation spot instead of a continent with rich/proud history etc.

While I definitely see your point about ill fitting, and extremely contrasting areas in the game, I just think about how contrasting our own continents/countries/peoples can be and think about the FFVII world as a microcosm of this. I mean....sometimes I can't believe how different Asian culture is to ours, let alone the buildings, foods, customs and languages. It's almost like another world.

Retr0gamer

snausages wrote: »

That same design philosophy can probably be seen today in FFXIII, where Cid dies and suddenly shows up again in an extremely elaborate 5 minute cutscene at the start of Act 12. Then he dies again, twice in the space of a pretty short segment of time. Bit like the Star Wars prequels in that respect.

You know that's more than likely considering Square said that the FFXIII art tea were just pumping out art assets before the story was even close to being finalised. FFXIII-2 was a direct result of them having too many art assets for the first game. With FFVII with the amount of time it took to build and render the art back in, probably 1994-1997 when the game was in development they'd have to be pumping out art in a similar manner if they had any hope of finishing the game. You can see it in the CGI were the earlier CGI used the terrible looking popeye models while the later ones, mostly likely done in the final year by the US studio used much higher quality models.

noodler

If I think about any post FF6 FF then evey world has seriously different towns.

I mean, it is supposed to be an entire world, different climate, cultures etc - I don;t understand how they couldn't be different.

I mean FF8 had different races! Then it had Esthar (which I personally hated!), Balamb was tropical and bumpkin-like whlst Deling City was Parisian-like.

FF9 has a kind of tree-huggin rural type with Burmecia/Cleyra as well as the medieval setup in Lindblum and Alexandria. Don't get me started on that abomindation North Continent with those incomprehensible Scottish d1icks.

I can't say I really thought any of the towns were out of place in FF7. Wutai was supposed to be culturally different, they were as far away from Midgar as could be and had just lost a major war.

keane2097

Wutai did just seem like a tacked on afterthought, but don't really have much of a problem with any of the rest. Arriving in Cosmo Canyon for the first time was amazing after spending so long in Midgar you see a whole other type of world, thought it was class.

snausages

Bone Village seemed a bit perfunctory (Aeris is going off to summon Holy and we're digging for a Harp?). Not that I minded considering you spent all of 2 minutes there.

I found Spira kind of a dull world as well. Zanarkand and Luca were cool, but the rest of the world wasn't that memorable.

noodler

snausages wrote: »

Bone Village seemed a bit perfunctory (Aeris is going off to summon Holy and we're digging for a Harp?). Not that I minded considering you spent all of 2 minutes there.

I found Spira kind of a dull world as well. Zanarkand and Luca were cool, but the rest of the world wasn't that memorable.

I thought most of FF10 was beautiful (maybe letting the PS2 grpahics of the day cloud my judgement there though).

FF10 was very consistent in its settings but I kind of felt the story made that a neccessity.

JohnMarston

snausages wrote: »

I found Spira kind of a dull world as well. Zanarkand and Luca were cool, but the rest of the world wasn't that memorable.

Spira felt very disconnected because you couldnt really free roam.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

If I think about any post FF6 FF then evey world has seriously different towns.

I mean, it is supposed to be an entire world, different climate, cultures etc - I don;t understand how they couldn't be different.

I mean FF8 had different races! Then it had Esthar (which I personally hated!), Balamb was tropical and bumpkin-like whlst Deling City was Parisian-like.

FF9 has a kind of tree-huggin rural type with Burmecia/Cleyra as well as the medieval setup in Lindblum and Alexandria. Don't get me started on that abomindation North Continent with those incomprehensible Scottish d1icks.

I can't say I really thought any of the towns were out of place in FF7. Wutai was supposed to be culturally different, they were as far away from Midgar as could be and had just lost a major war.

You're not really getting what I'm saying about a consistent tone and aesthetic. As I said it feels like you're walking into somewhere from a different game in some of the locations in FFVII.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You're not really getting what I'm saying about a consistent tone and aesthetic. As I said it feels like you're walking into somewhere from a different game in some of the locations in FFVII.

Well, I am talking more generally now in reponse to the issue of Wutai being out of place.

Although I still don't really agree with you.