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Final Fantasy 7....by a non gamer
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Join Date:Posts: 50004
Mindkiller wrote: »@ retrogamer. That's a pretty weak theory you have there.
Sephiroth dies 5 or 7 years (can't remember which) before FFVII. But he channels his will beyond the lifestream and makes a projection of himself through Jenova. He uses Jenova as a puppet to kill tons of dudes and simultaneously controls all the Jenova infused clones and Cloud. He gets the black materia and summons meteor. If Sephiroth was a puppet then I don't see why Jenova would do all the legwork.
If Sephiroth was the puppet then you'd imagine that there'd be no need to get the black materia to the 'real' Sephiroth in the North. He's the guy pulling the strings.
All of this is told to you by a delusional Sephiroth that still thinks he is in control. The guy is infused with Jenovas cells and they have been controlling him and deluding him the whole time. Anyway Sephiroth couldn't move, so Jenova pretty much had to go to him. It's not Sephiroth that has control over Cloud, it's Jenova.Mindkiller wrote: »On a sidenote it's notable as well that Ifalna calls Jenova a 'he' in the PC version of the game. That leads credence to the idea that Jenova is a shapeshifter and the 'female' Jenova you see might just be an imitation of one of the Ancients a la John Carpenter's The Thing. (The 'Reunion' experiment is a lot like how the 'Thing' operates as well.) If Jenova can do just that then it doesn't really seem like she 'needed' Sephiroth's body for anything. Sephiroth needed Jenova, not the other way around. Jenova doesn't even reach Sephiroth until the northern crater on disc 2, and by then the entire plan is complete.
You mean the PC version with even more script problems than the PS1 version? That's just looking for evidence to support a theory rather than basing a theory on evidence.Mindkiller wrote: »I'm not sure why people are so hostile to the idea of Sephiroth being the main villain. The guy's a badass. He taunts you the whole way through the game and then you find out he's been asleep all this time waiting for you to do exactly what he wanted. God knows how long he was just sitting up there in the rafters waiting for Cloud to show up just so he could murder Aeris right there in front of him. Of course, he only did that after he couldn't get Cloud to do it himself.
Well it's because it's kind of wrong and when you think about it goes against the whole theme of the game about inner strength. Aeris seems weak but is the stronger character than Cloud. Cids wife. Just two examples. Then there's cloud who seems weak and has a pretty pathetic backstory, he seems even weaker in the original japanese version apparently. However hs shows he is stronger than Sephiroth because he is the one that breaks control away from Jenova while Sephiroth is still living in his delusion.
Why does Sephiroth want to wound the world? To fill himself with lifeforce so he can become a god? Pretty weak. It's very obvious that all he is doing is carrying out what Lavos, I mean Jenova originally intended. Suck the world dry and then do the same elsewhere.Mindkiller wrote: »EDIT: Something else I found. This is the original English script for the PS1 game
???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master. ('Our' purpose. The Jenova clones)
Cloud: Our...?
Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?
???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...
Cloud: Master...!?
???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...
Can't call that one a retcon
So this was spoken by the Jenova clones, the same one sunder jenova's control and just as delusional?Mindkiller wrote: »According to the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, in an early version of Final Fantasy VII's game script, the fact that the party is chasing Jenova rather than Sephiroth was made much more clear. During the party's confrontation with Jenova in Sephiroth's form on the Cargo Ship, "Sephiroth" opens up his cape to shoot out a piece of Jenova, its hand. The Sephiroth Clones were not individual people infected with Jenova's Cells, but rather pieces of Jenova floating in the air hiding under cloaks in the shape of people. Each piece was explicitly named to be either its hand, thumb, or heart. This is why Cloud refers to Jenova∙BIRTH as the "arm" of Jenova upon its defeat. There were also two more boss fights: one happening between Cosmo Canyon and Nibelheim, and one in the Temple of the Ancients.
It has also been suggested from the material present in the Ultimania Omega, that rather than there being more than one Black Cape, there was just one, Jenova, who was cutting off bits of its body as it journeyed towards Sephiroth, until finally all that remains is a heart. In the original version of the events the party would catch up with the Black Cape in the Whirlwind Maze, and the figure would remove the hood to show it has no face, and then take off the cloak to show it is nothing but Jenova's heart floating in midair, the final piece, which would then transform into a monster.
Not even sure what this is meant to prove?
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I thought it was well-established at this stage that Seph wasn't actually Seph in Disc 1.
No, at this stage, we still think that Sephiroth is the real deal, its not until we hit the northern crater I believe that we reach that particular plot twist.
Thats from herself's play through anyway
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No, at this stage, we still think that Sephiroth is the real deal, its not until we hit the northern crater I believe that we reach that particular plot twist.
Thats from herself's play through anyway
Sorry, I meant at this stage in history or in the overall debate.
Didn't mean your GF's playthrough.0 -
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One thing I do disagree about is Cloud's backstory being pathetic. I think it was one of th emost enjoyable backstories in any FF game, the whole Kalm flashback, the death of his mother, his failures to go out into the world and do what he promised he would do, the reveal with Zack was just brilliant imo. That photo (minus Cloud) when he returns to Nibelheim (in his mind) was excellent.
Aye, it's good. Put he's a pretty pathetic character, far from the persona he projects at the start
As for Sephiroth, not going to bother going through the dialogue but on my second time through the game I found it very obvious with lots of hints about the control Jenova has over itself even down to the cellular level and even other creatures and all it wants to do is recombine and continue it's work.
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Retr0gamer wrote: »Aye, it's good. Put he's a pretty pathetic character, far from the persona he projects at the start
As for Sephiroth, not going to bother going through the dialogue but on my second time through the game I found it very obvious with lots of hints about the control Jenova has over itself even down to the cellular level and even other creatures and all it wants to do is recombine and continue it's work.
Sorry I get you now.
Yeah, he slowly disintegrates (before recovering obviously) when he is forced to open up to new people and have his dilusions shattered.0 -
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Red I'v been reading this thread since last week and can I just say awesome idea!I've convinced my girlfriend to do the same once we're finished exams and i cannot wait to be honest!
Don't let her read the thread!!!! Its got spoilers everywhere!!!
But do tell your missus that my missus would love to talk to someone about it as a fellow newbie
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Retr0gamer wrote: »
You mean the PC version with even more script problems than the PS1 version? That's just looking for evidence to support a theory rather than basing a theory on evidence.
I found the scene from the PS1 version, where it's 'it' instead of 'he'. I've never seen this scene before. I can confirm it's the PS1 version as I've have it loaded up on my PSP right now and the script is the same. You can view the scene in the second house on the left in Snow Town on disc 3.
2:31 onwards
Ifalna: "That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past (Jenova has no clearly defined gender. She's a shapeshifter, so she doesn't need Sephiroth. She can look like him if she chooses, or if Sephiroth chooses as the case may be)
Gast: "Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I have't (typo intentional) any idea"
Ifalna: "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came." (So Jenova can be a 'he' according to Ifalna in both versions of the game)
Ifalna: "He first approached as a friend, deceived them, and finally.... gave them the virus."
Ifalna: "The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad... transforming into monsters"Why does Sephiroth want to wound the world? To fill himself with lifeforce so he can become a god? Pretty weak. It's very obvious that all he is doing is carrying out what Lavos, I mean Jenova originally intended. Suck the world dry and then do the same elsewhere.
Why not? Seymour in FFX wanted to destroy Spira for no discernible reason. Kefka wanted to become a God.. for what? Kefka and Sephiroth are both crazy dudes, that's all the motive they need.
"All of this is told to you by a delusional Sephiroth that still thinks he is in control. The guy is infused with Jenovas cells and they have been controlling him and deluding him the whole time. Anyway Sephiroth couldn't move, so Jenova pretty much had to go to him. It's not Sephiroth that has control over Cloud, it's Jenova."
Yeah, you could call them delusional. You could call the clones delusional as well if you want. But really there's no concrete proof in the game that the Jenova infused clones and Sephiroth are delusional. We're never giving anything in the game that lends credence to that possibility. The burden of proof is on you on that point.
In any event, Hojo says the same thing on disc 2 and that's the very last we ever hear of it
Hojo: "But being the genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing"
Hojo: "Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestrean; he wants to manipulate the Clones himself"
Yes, that was how it got started
Hojo: "I wondered where the clones were going, but I was never able to figure it out"
I couldn't figure it out either
Hojo: "The one thing that I did know was that Sephiroth was at their final destination"
I wasn't pursuing Sephiroth. I was being summoned by Sephiroth (Cloud then 'gives' the black materia to Sephiroth)
[snip]
Hojo: "This is perfect! Both Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will. They won't be diffused into the Lifestream, but gathered here!"
And who are we to argue with Hojo? He may be the most authorative guy on the subject. Or maybe he's deluded as well. Gee, I guess everybody in FFVII is deluded then.
What is Jenova controlling anyway? When Jenova controls Sephiroth, what does she make him do? Because as far as I can tell, Sephiroth just lounges about in the North for the entire game. He only exists in the lifestream, where he exerts his will on the clones and Jenova
As for whether or not Seph is Seph on disc 1 it's all a matter of semantics. In the literal sense, it's Jenova who appears and humiliates Cloud. But it's Sephiroth who pulls the strings. Jenova kills Aeris through Sephiroth's bidding. Seph pulled the trigger. He's the bad guy. I guess in that sense we could compare him to Yu Yevon in FFX who controls Sin from within. Sin is just a shell, like Jenova. Sephiroth has no body, so he needs Jenova.
"Not even sure what this is meant to prove?"
I just thought it was interesting. It's a shame that it got cut out. Would have been a dramatic moment.0 -
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Don't let her read the thread!!!! Its got spoilers everywhere!!!
But do tell your missus that my missus would love to talk to someone about it as a fellow newbie
I'm really hoping she'l pick it up as well as your missus has!I was actually going to show her this thread(obviously before Aeris Death) but I decided against it!0 -
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The whole Sephiroth thing being in control doesn't sit right with me. We know Jenova can influence people and their minds especially when infected with its cells. A lot of that theory revolves around Jenova being dead and brainless, except there's the fact that Jenova was never killed and only quarantined or left in stasis in the northern crater. Also there's the fact that what Sephiroths ultimate goal is, is exactly the same as Jenova's goal and he's pretty dead set on achieving it with Jenova and not doing it on his lonesome.
This force of his will being greater than Jenova just stinks of bad writing and that's why I hope it's not what was originally intended, afterall Sephiroth is a mere human with only a part of Jenova in him, he really shouldn't have a greater mind or will especially considering he is bonkers.
Opinion seems to have changed to the sephiroth point of view since the ultimania thing came out, which I just can't trust since it is part of the god awful FFVII compilation thing. Hojo's remarks you quoted seem to be the biggest evidence, when does he say this by the way? I know on my second playthrough the impression I got was that Sephiroth was the unknowing puppet as well and it wasn't from reading any theories online at the time but something I came to from the dialogue in the game.
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Mind=BlownRetr0gamer wrote: »The whole Sephiroth thing being in control doesn't sit right with me. We know Jenova can influence people and their minds especially when infected with its cells. A lot of that theory revolves around Jenova being dead and brainless, except there's the fact that Jenova was never killed and only quarantined or left in stasis in the northern crater. Also there's the fact that what Sephiroths ultimate goal is, is exactly the same as Jenova's goal and he's pretty dead set on achieving it with Jenova and not doing it on his lonesome.
I've never actually thought it out before but holy ****.0 -
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Well it's still up in the air. I found everything pointed towards that when I played it and it was the main theory at the time.
Also one other thing, Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells, so not there's that blight on his credibility as well
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It's this scene here. This is also the last time we see Sephiroth or Jenova until the last fight
As for stinky writing, well that's Final Fantasy for you. The closest we've ever gotten to a really great story was FFXII and that jumped the shark big-time when you found out about the 'Ocquiria' or however you spell it.
You have to remember as well that Jenova gets her body separated and cut up throughout the game. Jenova is in bits by the end. If we use AC as a reference (maybe we shouldn't) all that's left of her by the end is her head. And then there's this scene (1:30)
"This is the end!"
"You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness (Sephiroth's body is in the crystal, so it's obviously Jenova's body that's being talked about here. Sephiroth seems pretty keen on just sacrificing the host body he's been using all along now that the black materia is right where he needs it. If Jenova was the one in control then she certainly wouldn't destroy herself or allow herself to be killed by Sephiroth. The suggestion seems to be that Jenova could have also given Sephiroth the materia, but Cloud kills her and does it himself.)
There's a strange part here where Cloud says:
"It's both incredibly wicked and cruel...but it's releasing a powerful strong will from deep within this planet's wound" (It = Sephiroth? I'm not sure tbh. The 'will' bit makes it sound like Seph.)
Jenova's abilities as described by Ifalna and Sephiroth is that she can imitate (and maybe perhaps assimilate?) other people, living or dead. We know she can imitate the living because in one of the above scenes she copies Tifa. Jenova can also infect people with a 'virus' that makes them mad and turns them into monsters. But this isn't what happens with Sephiroth as we already know what these monsters look like.
That's the Crisis Core version I think, but it's the same in FFVII.
Jenova isn't necessarily dead and brainless. But Sephiroth is strong enough to control it. The Jenova clones (ie, Jenova her/hiself) call Sephiroth its master. Hojo says that Sephiroth is the one controlling the clones. Cloud says it as well. Of course, there's also the suggestion that Sephiroth gets his strength because of what he is. When we meet Lucretia we learn that the Jenova inside her wouldn't let her die and she still sort of lingers on in the lifestream, a lot like Sephiroth. But it's pretty clear that she didn't succumb to the Jenova cells like the clones and Cloud did.
Ultimately, Sephiroth can't do a thing without Jenova. His reasons for 'rescuing' her to begin with are muddy. He thought she was an ancient and wanted to take back the planet with her. By the time the game 'begins' though his motives are different. He doesn't give a crap about her. If Jenova was in control then I'd doubt he'd change course just like that. Notice as well he recants the whole 'taking the planet back for the Cetra' thing at the Temple of the Ancients. At that point, he's just using her because he has no body anymore.
One thing that isn't clear is if Hojo was also being controlled by Sephiroth. It would certainly explain his actions at the end of disc 2 after he injects himself with Jenova cells. But then if he's crazy enough to do that then he's crazy enough to do anything. The question I guess is when he did it. But it's a moot point really. Square included plenty of indicators that Seph was in control and not Sephroth. They even released a book to this effect. FFVII isn't exactly brimming with subtext either. It's story is told all through dialogue.
edit: I see you brought up Hojo as well. In any case, the Jenova cells were self-administered, so as crazy as he is it's not like Jenova made him do it unless what he means is that he injected it into his gonads when he knocked up Lucretia and I could really do without that mental image.
edit: another point. Jenova's cells is what binds Sephiroth to the living world. He can only control those who share the cells, like Cloud and the clones. So Seph controls Jenova who controls everything else0 -
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I really wouldn't class the MGS games anywhere near art. They're action films with clever ideas and god awful dialogue, nothing more.
As for the FF games, not even close. I have to agree with Mindkiller but they never go past the level of the average anime. Even the emotional moments are manipulative no matter how effective. Read some Murakami or finish Earthbound if you want to see how to do it without dramatic manipulation.
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There's cetainly elements and moments you might come close to being classifiedas art but really as a whole MGS and the FF games don't come anywhere near it. Honestly forgetting the originality ofthe settings do the FF games ever go beyond the level of your pulp sci-fi or fantasy novel because for me they certainly don't. Everything in those games is really just manipulative and in your face, you're basically told to feel emotion by the narrative. As for the themes, it's way too in your face and you're pretty much told what it's all about, MGS being really awful in this regard.
Art is impossible to define but really MGS and the FF games are nothing more than escapist entertainment and never transcend that. Clever narrative, plot twists and manipulative emotional scenes and imagery aren't what defines art.
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I never said games aren't art. If this is art...
...then there's no question about games being art. My point was that as an artform I find games a little bit vapid.
Funnily enough, when I hear people argue for games as an emergent artform one of the ones that gets mentioned the most is MGS2. Some see it as an example of a form of post-modern artistic expression.
This guy talks about MGS2 as a postmodern tragedy, though he seems to be more into the tragedy aspect than the postmodern side.
This one is a little better
I don't really think there's anything that profound about MGS3.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfyGcd2w2ss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1fuQnneF8o
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