Cheap Saorview SetTop box

roverdublin

I was in Barcelona last week and was in a big shopping center called Gran Via 2.
They had a huge choice of DVB-T SetTop boxes. All arround €30/€60.

Spain has almost the same system as ours , however, the Standard Digital TV Signal is MPEG2. The HD TV Signal is transmitted under MPEG4.
That means you have to get the HD Box version.

People who are looking for MHEG5 will not get this with these cheap products.:(

I bought this one

http://www.energysistem.com/ie-en/products/dvb_tuners/hd_dvb-t_series/38513-energy_tdt_hd3/

and it works a dream.

This was €37.

So, if you are in Spain and you are lookingh for a DVB-T SetTop Box, you will not regret it.
It will take years until we are here on this price level.

watty

The Spanish system is not really ANYTHING like ours.

It doesn't work a Dream as it's not properly compatible. Compared with TV Licence, Electricity the box and TV uses and a Proper box it's a stupid cost saving. You have no assurance how well it will work next week.

How do you manage your Irish /EU mandated 2 year Retail Sale of Goods Act Warranty with this purchase either?

Penny wise Pound foolish is what these once off savings are. It might be different if you saving this every month. But you get an inferior product for a saving of less than €10 a year.

STB

Basics

1. MPEG4 H264 L4 (HD)

2. MHEG5

3. MPEG Audio and HE-AAC (more important than AC3+) people forget this one, but it may be used as the audio codec in the future.


All basics of the Saorview Spec. Be careful that it at least has these.

How does the boxes LCN behave Rover? Are the channels named 800 and have an option to renumber them 1, 2 etc.

roverdublin

watty wrote: »

It doesn't work a Dream as it's not properly compatible. Compared with TV Licence, Electricity the box and TV uses and a Proper box it's a stupid cost saving.
saving of less than €10 a year.

I have never said it is compatible, and don't tell me that the products on the continent are all that bad. Ireland has not a monopole on GOOD electrical build appliances.
Do you compare that with the WALKER box???

watty wrote: »

You have no assurance how well it will work next week.

.

What product will offer you that assurance????

watty wrote: »

How do you manage your Irish /EU mandated 2 year Retail Sale of Goods Act Warranty with this purchase either?

.

I am over there quite often. Don't worry about that.

watty wrote: »

Penny wise Pound foolish is what these once off savings are. It might be different if you saving this every month. But you get an inferior product for a saving of less than €10 a year.

Maybe it is not so bad if one is just changing TV in a couple of month.

watty

You have a totally misleading title. That says it's compatible.

Title should be
Spanish HD DTT box can tune Irish Stations.

Saorview means CERTIFIED by the independent Teracom labs to 100% meet the Irish spec which is Nordig 2.0 and MHEG5 (UK Profile).

Without a test suite and Lab you can't assure ANYONE that this is a safe buy. It's not worth the reduced functionality and risk vs the small once off cost saving.

roverdublin

watty wrote: »

You have a totally misleading title. That says it's compatible.

Title should be
Spanish HD DTT box can tune Irish Stations.

Saorview means CERTIFIED by the independent Teracom labs to 100% meet the Irish spec which is Nordig 2.0 and MHEG5 (UK Profile).

Without a test suite and Lab you can't assure ANYONE that this is a safe buy. It's not worth the reduced functionality and risk vs the small once off cost saving.

OK Watty, point taken to a degree, Unfortunately I cannot change the title anymore.

I, and we all know what SAORVIEW means. This box is just to enable the TV picture on an old TV for just a couple of Euros, and that is all it is doing.

If you want MHEG5 and all the other stuff the certification is talking about you better buy a new TELE anyway.:)

recyclebin

For €13 more i got a certified saorview receiver 10 miles down the road in my local shop. Seems like a lot of hassle to bring a receiver the whole way from spain to save a couple of quid.

Mr.Biscuits

watty wrote: »

Saorview means CERTIFIED by the independent Teracom labs to 100% meet the Irish spec which is Nordig 2.0 and MHEG5 (UK Profile).

Sorry watty but have to disagree with the above.

'Saorview' does NOT mean "CERTIFIED by the independent Teracom lab".

"Saorview certified" means that.

Saorview, on it's own, is just the name of Ireland's DTT free-to-air service.

Over the coming years there are going to many boxes that are FULLY compatible with the Saorview system (in every single way) that won't be certified. You seem to be under the illusion that in time, Saorview will endorse every set-top-box and TV that is Saorview compatible and that will just never happen.

Like I said before: we need to educate people as to just what specifications they need to make sure TVs and set-top-boxes have in order to fully enjoy the Saorview service, not keep telling them to only buy Saorview certified devices.

In short, I would get used to people calling Irish DTT: 'Saorview' just as in the UK people refer to their DTT as 'Freevew' as that is what will and is happening and so it should as the word itself has nothing to do with certification - that is of course unless the word 'certification' is used.

watty

You can't describe a box as Saorview compatible unless it's certified. You're splitting hairs, I'm not. A retailer would be open to be legal action.

Either it's certified or not.
If it's not then NO-ONE can say it receives Saorview, that implies compatible and is only verifiable by Certification. You can say it seems to work today on Irish Digital if it's not certified.

Do not make life easier for Chancers ripping off the Irish Consumer, most of whom are large UK companies.

Over the coming years there are going to many boxes that are FULLY compatible with the Saorview system (in every single way) that won't be certified. You seem to be under the illusion that in time, Saorview will endorse every set-top-box and TV that is Saorview compatible and that will just never happen.

I'm not under any such illusion.

How do you know that "many boxes that are FULLY compatible with the Saorview system (in every single way)". That is impossible for a Retailer or Consumer to know. If something is certified as Nordig 2.0 and MHEG5 (v1.6 UK Profile) it might be fully compatible.

Digital compatibility is much trickier than Analogue (and had numerous PAL systems incompatible with PAL-I and also PAL-I systems with "wrong" tuner). For most of the existence of PAL only models intended for the Irish market were FULLY compatible.

I think you don't understand what compatibility and certification is.

Examples
A TV with DVB-T, MPEG4 AVC L4, AAC and CI+ (latest generation CAM slot) will have MHEG5 and will likely mostly work. There is no assurance however of 100% compatibility.

Similarly Sony and Humax make great DVB-T2 dual tuner PVRs. These support fully the same MPEG4 AVC L4, same UK profile MHEG5, MP2 & AAC audio etc. But they are absolutely not 100% compatible. There are ZERO Saorview PVRs and ZERO PVRs that are 100% compatible even if not certified. A PVR is promised soon. Those PVRs are "Freeview+ HD" and implement the Secret UK only "D-Book".

There may be 100% compatible sets and boxes that are not Saorview certified. But how do you prove it? Without your own test lab you can't. I have a non-Certified LG TV. It "seems" compatible, even down to having an "Irish" option for co-existance of Teletext and MHEG in Saorview fashion. I'd not recommend to anyone as there are so many similar spec similar price TVs that are certified.

There is no point in risking money on non-certified gear any more unless you want a true PVR and can't wait for a proper Saorview certified one. And the real PVRs do not 100% work on Saorview.

Mr.Biscuits

watty wrote: »

You can't describe a box as Saorview compatible unless it's certified.

Nobody said you could, or even should.

You're splitting hairs, I'm not. A retailer would be open to be legal action.

If they advertise something with the Saorview logo and/or claim that a TV or set-top-box is fully compliant, then they should be 100% be open to legal action.

Either it's certified or not. If it's not then NO-ONE can say it receives Saorview ..

Nobody can say their TV receives Saorview unless it's certified by Saorview?? And your reason for saying this is:

.that implies compatible and is only verifiable by Certification.

That is a nonsense quite frankly.

You can say it seems to work today on Irish Digital if it's not certified.

Do not make life easier for Chancers ripping off the Irish Consumer, most of whom are large UK companies.

Look, I understand your position and it is a noble one but Irish DTT is now being referred to as Saorview and you cannot, and will not, be able to stop people from using it in that regard.

I'm not under any such illusion. How do you know that "many boxes that are FULLY compatible with the Saorview system (in every single way)". That is impossible for a Retailer or Consumer to know.

I said there are "going" to be many boxes that will be fully compatible with Saorview that won't be certified and of course there will.

If something is certified as Nordig 2.0 and MHEG5 (v1.6 UK Profile) it might be fully compatible.

Digital compatibility is much trickier than Analogue (and had numerous PAL systems incompatible with PAL-I and also PAL-I systems with "wrong" tuner). For most of the existence of PAL only models intended for the Irish market were FULLY compatible.

I think you don't understand what compatibility and certification is.

I understand it perfectly, but - even if I didn't, it still would make your position a naive one as you simply cannot expect to hen pick people who refer to Irish DTT as Saorview for evermore and that is what you would need to do if you were to have any hope of restricting the use of the word so that it was only ever used in conjunction with products that have received Saorview certification.

A TV with DVB-T, MPEG4 AVC L4, AAC and CI+ (latest generation CAM slot) will have MHEG5 and will likely mostly work. There is no assurance however of 100% compatibility.

Yes and I agree, if someone describes it as such, they either need a clatter (if they are individual) and/or need to be sued (if a company).

Similarly Sony and Humax make great DVB-T2 dual tuner PVRs. These support fully the same MPEG4 AVC L4, same UK profile MHEG5, MP2 & AAC audio etc. But they are absolutely not 100% compatible.

Did anyone even imply that such boxes were "100% compatible"?

There are ZERO Saorview PVRs and ZERO PVRs that are 100% compatible even if not certified. A PVR is promised soon. Those PVRs are "Freeview+ HD" and implement the Secret UK only "D-Book".

There may be 100% compatible sets and boxes that are not Saorview certified. But how do you prove it? Without your own test lab you can't. I have a non-Certified LG TV. It "seems" compatible, even down to having an "Irish" option for co-existance of Teletext and MHEG in Saorview fashion. I'd not recommend to anyone as there are so many similar spec similar price TVs that are certified.

All agreed, but all you doing is saying things that nobody has an argument with, or at least I have not seen anyone say anything contrary of any the above.

There is no point in risking money on non-certified gear any more unless you want a true PVR and can't wait for a proper Saorview certified one. And the real PVRs do not 100% work on Saorview.

That is for people to decide for themselves, not you and no justification at all for the stringent controls that you feel should be placed on the use of the word. If someone wants to say that their non-certified TV is: "working like a dream with Saorview" then let them, as what they are saying is perfectly accurate. If someone wants to say that their non TV "receives Saorview" then let them also, as if they can receive Saorview channels then, yes they are "receiving" Saorview.

As I said on the last thread, what needs to be focused on is educating people about the exact specifications that are needed in order to receive Saorview and yes, that should entail telling people that to be 100% sure of compatibility, they should only buy Saorview certified products, but this lark of telling people they shouldn't be saying that they can receive Saorview ("like a dream" if they wish) if their device is not certified, needs to end as it's ott.

ardmacha

I have a non-Certified LG TV. It "seems" compatible, even down to having an "Irish" option for co-existance of Teletext and MHEG in Saorview fashion. I'd not recommend to anyone as there are so many similar spec similar price TVs that are certified.

I think there is a difference between a TV and a setup box. The TV will be used for a decade and will need updates. Absolutely, people should get fully compatible TVs. A setup box/analogue tv combination will probably be replaced by a TV in a year or two. I have a holiday home with a tv, which I use infrequently. There I'd be happy with a 90% compatible box and at some stage in the next year I might replace the TV .

STB

This forum really has become a debating society.

We have a lot of Cheap Saorview Threads opened and not all of them are actually true. A lot of people think that as it works now it always will. This is not the case. There a list of incompatible devices out there that are/were advertised as Saorview compatible.

In this case the OP is happy that it is a disposable device, but there is a danger here that others who pop in will take the information verbatim especially given that the thread is titled "Cheap Saorview SetTopBox". Misleading title, it isnt a Saorview box. It is a DVB-T box for Spain's TDT service and is spec'd as such to Spain's published standards which are not the same as ours.

The differences have already been outlined in the posts above.

And I am one with a positive mindset as regards other devices not certified being of use in Ireland (especially if cheap/or where they allow for extra functionality) but ONLY if the clarified or the shortcomings are readily identified for those not so technical.

Mr.Biscuits

STB, I get what you're saying but the vast majority of people out there that know little or nothing about DTT just know that Gay is telling them it's time to switch over to digital, mentions Saorview and so that is what they are calling it.

I just feel we need to educate people that just because TVs receive Saorview channels, doesn't mean that they are fully compatible with all that Soarview has to offer, let alone with what it may offer down the line. If you just round on people for using the word Saorview when talking about Irish DTT, it just confuses people. I have tried doing that with my parents last year and they just tune out as they don't have one iota what DTT is, they just know that Uncle Gaybo says they need to switch over to digital to get Saorview.

This notion that you can have a TV that picks up the Saorview stations but you can't say that it's picking up Saorview is a nonsense and I don't care how many times people say it nor how noble their reasons are for saying it, as all it does is confuse people.

User A: "I bought a TV on Amazon and the Saorview channels look amazing!"
User B: "No, you bought a TV that picks up Irish digital channels - is not Saorview compatible and you need to stop making such statements are you are misleading people!"

OTT rubbish like this grinds my gears.

I understand that if someone comes onto the forum and says that they bought a TV and can pick up Saorview channels and claims that people should buy it as it it's future proof, that they need to be told in no uncertain terms that they should not be making such claims online as it could result in someone being misled but a user just saying that their set-top-box is working like a dream with Saorview, while also making it damn clear that it doesn't have some specifications that it word need in order to take advantage of all that Saorview has to offer is doing NO wrong whatsoever.

I have no problem with guys like watty and yourself posting and making it clear that a device being discussed is not fully compatible and pointing out it's shortcomings. I welcome it in fact but I do take issue with the berating of users (not by yourself) for just using the word Saorview in when they are referring to Irish DTT and especially so when that person has not claimed full compatibility and in fact went out of their way to point out that it wasn't.

Irish DTT is Saorview and Irish DTT channels are Saorview Channels - it's that simple and nobody is going to change that. You can't expect people to not use the word Saorview when discussing non-certified devices and the time spent pulling people up on doing it would be far better spent educating people that there are different levels of Saorview compatibility and should they want FULL compatibility then perhaps they would be best advised to buy only certified Saorview products that display the logo.

Peter Rhea

At this stage, people shouldn't be starting threads to promote basic non-PVR DVB-T receivers that are not certified, simple as that.

Mr.Biscuits

Peter Rhea wrote: »

At this stage, people shouldn't be starting threads to promote basic non-PVR DVB-T receivers that are not certified, simple as that.

I don't think the product is worth recommending myself, as you can get a box here, with pretty much the same features, for a not too dissimilar price..

..but that's a different issue.

Ronnie Raygun

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

... would be far better spent educating people that there are different levels of Saorview compatibility ...

Stupidest thing I've read here in a while.

Mr.Biscuits

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

.. would be far better spent educating people that there are different levels of Saorview compatibility ..

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Stupidest thing I've read here in a while.

Are Freeview HD set-top-boxes and PVRs not partially compatible with the Saorview service?

Peter Rhea

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

Are Freeview HD set-top-boxes and PVRs not partially compatible with the Saorview service?

Who exactly do you want to 'educate' about this?

elsie1b

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

Are Freeview HD set-top-boxes and PVRs not partially compatible with the Saorview service?

I use a freeview hd box.
All the Irish channels and BBC/ITV HD on one box.
"You can't beat it with a big stick"

Peter Rhea

That's fine where you have UK terrestrial reception or if you can't wait for a Saorview approved PVR.

In a lot of cases it won't be relevant & shouldn't be brought up unless the person seeking information is in a similar situation.

Anyone here providing useful information will always ask the location of those seeking it.

Mr.Biscuits

Peter Rhea wrote: »

That's fine [..] if you can't wait for a Saorview approved PVR.

It's fine anyway, whether he can wait or not.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Who exactly do you want to 'educate' about this?

People that have been given the impression that they can ONLY view the Saorview service with Saorview certified products.

Peter Rhea

I don't know how long you've been following this forum, but the subject of using non-approved equipment to receive Irish digital broadcasts is nothing new & there's certainly no need to be making an issue of it as if it's some big secret.

watty

People that have been given the impression that they can ONLY view the Saorview service with Saorview certified products.

No, they haven't, not at all.

But SOME people are giving the impression that any old box that gives a picture today is compatible and worth saving a few quid. It's not and no assurance everything will work next week. It's a foolish risk.

UK "Freeview HD" boxes or TVs are only sensible if
1) You can actually receive UK Terrestrial TV as well as Saorview
2) You are getting a high end PVR and you are too impatient to wait.

"Freeview HD" stuff, French TNT HD or Spanish TDT simply isn't properly compatible and a risk even if you do get all the pictures and sound today. Certainly it will be a poor experience than a properly compatible system. The small once off saving (if any) isn't worth it.

Without a lab and knowledge you can't test the compatibility. It's stunningly bad advice to recommend such purchases.

watty

There are no shortage of people on eBay CLAIMING their product works in Ireland when it doesn't show RTE2 at all.
The other channels will be following.

So the only advice is:

• If you can't receive UK Terrestrial and don't want a full true PVR only buy a certified product
• If you can get UK Freeview from NI, IOM or Wales only buy a "Freeview HD" box, but only one known to partially work with Saorview (some don't really work at all!)
• If you are more money than sense and can't wait for true Saorview Dual Tuner internal HDD PVR (coming soon), then get the Sony or Humax "Freeview+ HD" PVR, but they are not fully

compatible. There are issues.

From www.saorview.ie

Unapproved Receivers

There are some set-top-boxes and iDTVs on the market that may work with SAORVIEW or aspects of the SAORVIEW service. Consumers should be aware that the majority of UK “Freeview” boxes and iDTVs will not decode the SAORVIEW service and that unapproved receivers may not be fully compatible with all aspects of the SAORVIEW service.

At present there is a good range of SAORVIEW approved set-top-boxes and iDTVs, in the market, see Approved Product Listings. Others are currently going through the testing process.

When making a purchase consumers should seek advice from their specialist retailer or manufacturer.

See also
http://www.saortv.info/
http://www.saortv.info/free-uk-tv/
http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

Non-Saorview boxes
There are problems with and not limited to
Summer Time
Channel Numbering
Series Link (not transmitted yet till Saorview PVRs released)
MHEG5 (NOT just a Text service)
Subtitles
Old EBU Teletext on TG4 & TV3
OTA updates
Possibly Audio Codec later

NewHillel

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

This notion that you can have a TV that picks up the Saorview stations but you can't say that it's picking up Saorview is a nonsense and I don't care how many times people say it nor how noble their reasons are for saying it, as all it does is confuse people.

User A: "I bought a TV on Amazon and the Saorview channels look amazing!"
User B: "No, you bought a TV that picks up Irish digital channels - is not Saorview compatible and you need to stop making such statements are you are misleading people!"

OTT rubbish like this grinds my gears.

I understand that if someone comes onto the forum and says that they bought a TV and can pick up Saorview channels and claims that people should buy it as it it's future proof, that they need to be told in no uncertain terms that they should not be making such claims online as it could result in someone being misled but a user just saying that their set-top-box is working like a dream with Saorview, while also making it damn clear that it doesn't have some specifications that it word need in order to take advantage of all that Saorview has to offer is doing NO wrong whatsoever.

I have no problem with guys like watty and yourself posting and making it clear that a device being discussed is not fully compatible and pointing out it's shortcomings. I welcome it in fact but I do take issue with the berating of users (not by yourself) for just using the word Saorview in when they are referring to Irish DTT and especially so when that person has not claimed full compatibility and in fact went out of their way to point out that it wasn't.

Irish DTT is Saorview and Irish DTT channels are Saorview Channels - it's that simple and nobody is going to change that. You can't expect people to not use the word Saorview when discussing non-certified devices and the time spent pulling people up on doing it would be far better spent educating people that there are different levels of Saorview compatibility and should they want FULL compatibility then perhaps they would be best advised to buy only certified Saorview products that display the logo.

I couldn't agree more.

Ronnie Raygun

NewHillel wrote: »

I couldn't agree more.

What a surprise.

Mr.Biscuits

Peter Rhea wrote: »

.. there's certainly no need to be making an issue of it as if it's some big secret.

I didn't raise the issue. I responded to what was posted as the clear impression was given that people should only buy Saorview certified set-top-boxes and I disagree with that message.

watty wrote: »

But SOME people are giving the impression that any old box that gives a picture today is compatible and worth saving a few quid. It's not and no assurance everything will work next week. It's a foolish risk.

Watty, I have condemned those people myself, why do you keep going on about this? It does NOT negate my point, no matter how much you think that it does.

UK "Freeview HD" boxes or TVs are only sensible if [..] You are getting a high end PVR and you are too impatient to wait.

So I am only right only if the buyer is impatient. If they don't mind waiting though, and have plenty of patience - then I am wrong

It's stunningly bad advice to recommend such purchases.

I am advising people do nothing of the sort!! Quit this strawmanning.

I am the one advocating that people be given the truth so that they are not in the dark with regards to the specificity required of set-top-boxes, so why exactly would they go and buy such products after they listened to me? They are more likely to make poor choices after they listen to YOU if anything (I will explain below just why that is).

There are no shortage of people on eBay CLAIMING their product works in Ireland when it doesn't show RTE2 at all.
The other channels will be following.

I have condemned such practices and if the knowledge that I wish people had with regards to specifications was in the public domain (to the degree that I wish that it was) - then scurrilous sellers such as the ones referred to would have far far less buyers to feed on than they do now.

watty wrote: »

So the only advice is:

• If you [..] don't want a full true PVR only buy a certified product

Can you explain precisely why someone that lives in the west of Ireland (for example) and just wants a receiver that does what this box does (as well as it does it) would in fact be better off buying a Saorview approved product instead? (Please re-read this question twice before answering it).

• If you are more money than sense and can't wait for true Saorview Dual Tuner internal HDD PVR (coming soon), then get the Sony or Humax "Freeview+ HD" PVR, but they are not fully compatible. There are issues.

So your OTT position is partially based on fiscal empathy?

Let other people worry about their money - lets just make sure they get the facts.

There are problems with and not limited to [..]

Who is saying that issues don't exist???? :rolleyes:

You are just going around the houses in order to not address criticisms of statements that you made (and make regularly). I have made it perfectly clear that people should be educated in just what specifications are needed to avoid the issues that you list, but you list them as if they are an argument for you taking the position you do, when they are anything but.

Let's get back to the issue as I see it:

You state:

watty wrote: »

Either it's certified or not.
If it's not then NO-ONE can say it receives Saorview, that implies compatible [..]

The underlined is the crux of the issue and is what I take issue with. Your position is that if someone has a set-top-box (such as the Ariva 120) then they can't say that it "receives Saorview" - even though they are using it to view and record the Saorview service :rolleyes:

This to me is not only ludicrous but highly confusing to people that are confused enough about the switch over to digital.

What people do when they get mixed messages like this, is either see the box working in a friends house, or in an ad, or on a website with a photo of the box alongside, with a list of channels that they wish to watch and think: "Shag the naysayers" and fork out cash thinking they have been lied to and that the box must be "fully compatible" and future proof, otherwise Del Boy wouldn't be listing all those channels in the blurb.

The point (the only one I am making) is that the fly-by-night sellers (and that includes many sales staff in some of the well known stores also) are not up front with buyers when it comes to the shortcomings of some Set-Top-Boxes, PVRs and TVs and so it is far better advised that when products can be used to view Saorview, that they are referred to as being "partially compatible" with it. This will ensure that people are getting the correct message about products that they are thinking of buying, and not the incorrect one - which at the moment is coming from BOTH ends of the scale: the liars wanting to make a quick buck and the scaremongers saying that UN-certifed products are not compatible.

If you tell someone that a product is only partially compatible, then they are more likely to ask why that is and just what functions or future features they would miss out on if they made the purchase they were thinking of. Not only that, but it is also more likely that would then ask what it is precisely that they need to look out for in order to make sure that they buy a "fully compatible" product (if that is in fact what they are after).

TL;DR

The line that "Only Saorview products can be described as receiving Saorview" needs to stop as at best: it confuses people and limits their purchasing options and at worst: leads them right into the hands of people who will sell them products such as single tuner T2 PVRs, without disclosing to them the possible future shortcomings of such a purchase.

Ronnie Raygun

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

... products such as single tuner T2 PVRs, without disclosing to them the possible future shortcomings of such a purchase.

Single tuner T2 PVRs? Like what?

Do you even know DVB-T2 is?

Why would someone in the west of Ireland want to spend £163 on that Humax?

watty

By definition a PVR has at least two tuners and an internal HDD. A one tuner box able to record is is a Set-box receiver with a Recording feature. It's not a real PVR.

Peter Rhea

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

The line that "Only Saorview products can be described as receiving Saorview" needs to stop as at best: it confuses people and limits their purchasing options . . . blah, blah

People are free to research & buy whatever they like, but if a complete stranger asks me for advice, I'll recommend Saorview approved every time.

Why do you think your approach lessens confusion?

Mr.Biscuits

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Single tuner T2 PVRs? Like what?

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/HUMAX-HD-FOX-T2-FREEVIEW-HD-PVR-500GB-EXTERNAL-HDD-/330499549382

The reason I used Single Tuner devices as an example was because I know people that bought such devices on Amazon and Ebay and thought that, because they could now record two channels at once, that they would be always be able to do so. Multimuxs meant squat to them and that is the point here: that in order for people to become more aware of just which specifications they need look out for, with regards to specific Saorview functions & features, "partial compatibility" needs to be talked about more, instead of this regurgitating of the same tired lines such as: 'If it's not certified by Saorview then it won't work with Saorview'.

Do you even know DVB-T2 is?

Nah, just thought I'd mention it for the craic like.

Why would someone in the west of Ireland want to spend £163 on that Humax?

I have no idea, you would have to ask them. I am not the one making any claims here that they SHOULD buy that Humax, it's others making claims that they SHOULDN'T buy it and I asked why - still have no answer to it other than fiscal empathy!

watty wrote: »

By definition a PVR has at least two tuners and an internal HDD. A one tuner box able to record is is a Set-box receiver with a Recording feature. It's not a real PVR.

Not only are you going to trying to impose a set of restrictions of just when it is that a set-top-box can be spoken of as "receiving Saorview" - but now you're are going to also lay down a criteria that a receiver must meet in order for me (or anyone else I take it) to be able to refer to it as a PVR??

Just so as we're clear here watty - as far as I am concerned, if someone has an Ariva 120 with a USB stick stuck in it's jaxxy, which they use to record to, well then as far as I am concerned: they own a PVR! If someone is using Windows Media Center and receiving Saorview via a T2 NanoStick, which is hooked up to their laptop via a leopardskin coated USB extension cable, that's wrapped around a dead goat and held out the window by a naked chimp to get the best reception, then as far as I'm concerned: they own a PVR too.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

People are free to research & buy whatever they like, but if a complete stranger asks me for advice, I'll recommend Saorview approved every time.

I have no problem with that, but you say it like you think I would - not sure why, as I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with someone recommending whatever it is that they wish to. It's the blanket statements that I take issue with. Where people are told they can't say they are receiving Saorview on non-certified devices, even though they are or dare mention a box as working "like a dream" without being accused of misleading people, that's what I'm objecting to and think I have made quite clear just why that is at this stage.

Why do you think your approach lessens confusion?

I have already said:

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

If you tell someone that a product is only partially compatible, then they are more likely to ask why that is and just what functions or future features they would miss out on if they made the purchase they were thinking of. Not only that, but it is also more likely that would then ask what it is precisely that they need to look out for in order to make sure that they buy a "fully compatible" product (if that is in fact what they are after).

NewHillel

watty wrote: »

By definition a PVR has at least two tuners and an internal HDD. A one tuner box able to record is is a Set-box receiver with a Recording feature. It's not a real PVR.

Whose definition?
Is it specified by RTE?
Saorview?
Is this specified in a recognised international standard?
How is certification checked?

STB

@ Mr Biscuits

You seem fairly interested in the difference between Freeview HD and Saorview specification. This discussion has come up before by the way.

The document linked in that post is missing right now, but Watty had downloaded it at the time and uploaded to his site, Techtir. A copy is here.

As you can see even Teracom had question marks over some of the differences between Nordig and Freeview HD. Add to that, that Ireland have a modified Nordig spec with the addition of MHEG5 and a few other things and it muddies the waters even further.

From a selling point of view I would be recommending Saorview certified as the responsibility then lies with Saorview if there are any problems (thankfully I dont sell anything!).

Non certified but perceived compliance products do have to be taken with a pinch of salt (have to be gunthered for the epg for example).

If RTE changed their audio codec to HE-AAC tomorrow we would see a lot of STBs and IDTVs killed, so my hope for now is that they wont.

Bottom line, just because its working now, doesn't mean that RTE will change something within their spec that would inadvertetly kill grey boxes or non certified equipment tomorrow. You then become dependant on the box manufacturer issuing a fix which is not always possible through language problems, no backup software writers or hardware limitations.

I place my trust in RTE at the moment that they wont tweak and expose the gaps!

On PVRs.... Freeview HD has DRM, be aware.
On Single tuner PVRs ..... IF Mux 2 comes on then single tuners will not be able to record off one mux and view another, regardless of the software or tuner module.

Ronnie Raygun

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

... "partial compatibility" needs to be talked about more

Talk away, nobody can stop you.

... claims here that they SHOULD buy that Humax, it's others making claims that they SHOULDN'T buy it and I asked why - still have no answer to it other than fiscal empathy!

This is an open forum with the vast majority of users being anonymous, just what exactly do you expect.

If you think Saorview certification is just a marketing ploy to artificially inflate prices & limit choice, you can advise people as such, but don't expect your words to go unchallenged.

Peter Rhea

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

. . . It's the blanket statements that I take issue with. Where people are told they can't say they are receiving Saorview on non-certified devices, even though they are or dare mention a box as working "like a dream" without being accused of misleading people, that's what I'm objecting to and think I have made quite clear just why that is at this stage.

Well stick around then, there will be more of these 'look what I've found, works like a dream!' threads.

After you've dealt with a few of them, you might change your viewpoint.