60Hz 2ms or 120Hz 5ms for gaming

pacquiao

Does anyone have much knowledge in playing fps games using both?
Considering our pings aren't as great as some countries would the 12hz monitor even be a help in getting your shot off?

Genghiz Cohen

I've moved from a 2mS to a 8mS and I didn't notice any difference.

Tea_Bag

I moved from 2ms to 6 and I cant tel the difference.

Brian

Do you get 120 fps or more in the game in question?

Connavar

I saw an interview with a pro gamer and he was saying that it was making a difference for him, but I call bs on that.
Its way too small a time to make a noticeable difference, especially when people are using wireless controllers and such so commonly these days

Dublin_Gunner

surely once the grey-to-grey happens faster than the refresh, ghosting shouldn't be an issue?

As 120hz panel takes just over 8ms for each refresh, 5ms is perfectly fine.

In fact, I'd say anything of 8ms or below is fine, and you wouldn't notice the difference anyway.

uncle_sam_ie

Isn't 120Hz only necessary if you want to do 3D gaming?

Dublin_Gunner

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Isn't 120Hz only necessary if you want to do 3D gaming?

Its a requirement for 3D, but that's not the only purpose.

If you are getting a framerate of 120fps or more, the 120hz screen can seem significantly smoother than 60hz.

In fact, once you're getting over 60fps you should notice a perceivable improvement.

uncle_sam_ie

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Its a requirement for 3D, but that's not the only purpose.

If you are getting a framerate of 120fps or more, the 120hz screen can seem significantly smoother than 60hz.

In fact, once you're getting over 60fps you should notice a perceivable improvement.

I thought read that your eyes don't notice a difference above 30Hz or there abouts?

Edit Maybe that was 30Fps.

Dublin_Gunner

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

I thought read that your eyes don't notice a difference above 30Hz or there abouts?

drop your monitor to 30hz or close to it, then put it back up to 60 and tell me you don't notice



Its all about how much you HAVE to take in - i.e movies have traditionally been 24fps, yet seem perfectly smooth.

Try playing BF3 at 24fps.

ShadowHearth

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

I thought read that your eyes don't notice a difference above 30Hz or there abouts?

i call bull**** on this m8. there is a very noticeable difference between 30fps and 60fps m8. Even cod fanboy fell that .

i would take 120hz over 2ms etc. 120hz will be noticeable and benefitial. on the other hand you need huge amount of hamsters in that wheel to power up 120fps! :pac:

marco_polo

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

drop your monitor to 30hz or close to it, then put it back up to 60 and tell me you don't notice



Its all about how much you HAVE to take in - i.e movies have traditionally been 24fps, yet seem perfectly smooth.

Try playing BF3 at 24fps.

And somehow movies look like cheap daytime TV soaps when viewed on a 100Hz TV with Motion Smoothing on (IMO anyway).

Dublin_Gunner

marco_polo wrote: »

Somehow movies look cheap daytime TV soaps when viewed on a 100Hz TV with Motion Smoothing on (IMO anyway).

It would be so much more preferable for the TV to drop its refresh rate to match the source if possible (or a factor of the source).

All this motion smoothing crap is just that - crap.

pacquiao

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

surely once the grey-to-grey happens faster than the refresh, ghosting shouldn't be an issue?

As 120hz panel takes just over 8ms for each refresh, 5ms is perfectly fine.

In fact, I'd say anything of 8ms or below is fine, and you wouldn't notice the difference anyway.

Have i got this right ? 120/1000 is 8.33 ms . So if my monitor is 120hz a frame is shown every 8.33 ms ?
And ghosting is grey on grey taking over 8.33ms to happen?

uncle_sam_ie

I have a 2 year old running around under my feet so, it's hard to focus but here this is from Toms Hardware.

"as a general rule 30 fps is the minimum you should aim for.
on consoles they can get away with 25 fps because tv's usually have a slower responce rate @around 14ms compared to an average lcd monitor's 5ms
this will introduce bluring which helps disguise low fps. to a point...
if you have a screen with a solid 30 fps and another with a solid 60 you wont be able to tell the difference. what you would notice is if the fps dropped suddenly to say 45 then back to 60 you dont notice the fps as such you notice the change in smoothness a drop form 60 to 55 would go unnoticed by most people. so as long as the frame rate is constant you wont notice an increase in game smoothness over 30 fps... some people will refute this but it has been scientifically proven. you notice the change because your eyes are made that way"

Dublin_Gunner

pacquiao wrote: »

Have i got this right ? 120/1000 is 8.33 ms . So if my monitor is 120hz a frame is shown every 8.33 ms ?
And ghosting is grey on grey taking over 8.33ms to happen?

Its not necessarily grey-to-grey, that's just one method of measuring how quickly the pixels can switch that a lot of manufacturers use.

Or indeed they'll give you the grey-to-grey measurement, but blue to red may take much longer.

In general, the shorter the response time, the less chance of ghosting occurring.

Anything below 8ms response time and you should not notice ghosting (in general on any LCD screen, regardless of refresh rate).

Dublin_Gunner

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

I have a 2 year old running around under my feet so, it's hard to focus but here this is from Toms Hardware.

"as a general rule 30 fps is the minimum you should aim for.
on consoles they can get away with 25 fps because tv's usually have a slower responce rate @around 14ms compared to an average lcd monitor's 5ms
this will introduce bluring which helps disguise low fps. to a point...
if you have a screen with a solid 30 fps and another with a solid 60 you wont be able to tell the difference. what you would notice is if the fps dropped suddenly to say 45 then back to 60 you dont notice the fps as such you notice the change in smoothness a drop form 60 to 55 would go unnoticed by most people. so as long as the frame rate is constant you wont notice an increase in game smoothness over 30 fps... some people will refute this but it has been scientifically proven. you notice the change because your eyes are made that way"

30fps is 1 frame every 33ms~. I can tell you now that I can certainly notice a difference between 30fps and 60 if you were to place both side by side.

I wouldn't be alone in that respect either.

pacquiao

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Its not necessarily grey-to-grey, that's just one method of measuring how quickly the pixels can switch that a lot of manufacturers use.

Or indeed they'll give you the grey-to-grey measurement, but blue to red may take much longer.

In general, the shorter the response time, the less chance of ghosting occurring.

Anything below 8ms response time and you should not notice ghosting (in general on any LCD screen, regardless of refresh rate).

Ya i can't say I've ever seen ghosting on any monitor I've had.
What are your thought's on the 120hz versus the normal 70hz monitor if your playing fps games at 100fps?

Dublin_Gunner

pacquiao wrote: »

Ya i can't say I've ever seen ghosting on any monitor I've had.
What are your thought's on the 120hz versus the normal 70hz monitor if your playing fps games at 100fps? Would it be enough to make you react faster say when you run around a corner. Or is that just a result of our crap pings here in ireland?

Its all to do with the perception of smoothness.


If you're getting 100fps, but using say 60hz screen, you'd be best using a frame rate limiter to limit your cards output to 60fps.

The extra fps are being wasted, causing tearing, and using unnecessary power and generating excess heat for no reason.


However, 100fps on a 120hz screen will seem a lot smoother (even if technically 1/5 of each frame is being drawn again, causing slight tearing).

pacquiao

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Its all to do with the perception of smoothness.


If you're getting 100fps, but using say 60hz screen, you'd be best using a frame rate limiter to limit your cards output to 60fps.

The extra fps are being wasted, causing tearing, and using unnecessary power and generating excess heat for no reason.


However, 100fps on a 120hz screen will seem a lot smoother (even if technically 1/5 of each frame is being drawn again, causing slight tearing).

I have cs on 100fps with 70hz and i do notice some tearing im going to change that. It does make sense what you're saying. Would interlaced or progressive have any impact on the games? I read about how they interlace blank images every second frame or something on tellies.

Dublin_Gunner

pacquiao wrote: »

I have cs on 100fps with 70hz and i do notice some tearing im going to change that. It does make sense what you're saying. Would interlaced or progressive have any impact on the games? I read about how they interlace blank images every second frame or something on tellies.

Always progressive. Interlaced is 'faking' it, as only every second line is drawn per frame, giving the perception of a certain resolution is being displayed.

All games are designed for progressive scan output, so playing games on an interlaced screen can look a little funny at times - especially at higher frame rates.

pacquiao

I see. Would all our computer monitors be progressive? And is progressive and interlaced a mode that can be changed like when you choose 1080i or 1080p?

Dublin_Gunner

pacquiao wrote: »

I see. Would all our computer monitors be progressive? And is progressive and interlaced a mode that can be changed like when you choose 1080i or 1080p?

Always choose 'p' - especially these days when displaying digital content on digital screens.

A quick google throws this
http://www.axis.com/products/video/camera/progressive_scan.htm

If you want to read a little more in depth than my attempt at simplifying something that isn't very simple!

pacquiao

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Always choose 'p' - especially these days when displaying digital content on digital screens.

A quick google throws this
http://www.axis.com/products/video/camera/progressive_scan.htm

If you want to read a little more in depth than my attempt at simplifying something that isn't very simple!

It is a very complicated subject. I'm glad you seen the thread and were able to answer my questions. Thanks for that.
Atleast now i know that 5ms is probably going to be fine and the 2ms is overkill.

ShadowHearth

pacquiao wrote: »

It is a very complicated subject. I'm glad you seen the thread and were able to answer my questions. Thanks for that.
Atleast now i know that 5ms is probably going to be fine and the 2ms is overkill.

when it comes to monitors there are soooo many grey areas! manufacturers are being very slimy with specs and what actually important specs.

armitage_skanks

Most super-low response times are achieved with overdrive and this can cause it's own issues. I had to turn it off on mine because it bothered me but most people I showed it to had no idea what I was talking about.

pacquiao

They are snakes allright.

Genghiz Cohen

*Turns brightness up full
ZOMG LOOK AT HOW BRIGHT THE WHITES ARE!!!
*Turns brightness down
ZOMGWTFBBQ LOOK AT THOSE BLACKS!!!!!!

Magill

Don't want to make a new thread so i'll ask here. Looking to buy a second monitor (Will be my main monitor for gaming, at least on shooters).

Anyone got any suggestions on which one's are good value for money, i don't have a huge amount to spend.

ShadowHearth

Magill wrote: »

Don't want to make a new thread so i'll ask here. Looking to buy a second monitor (Will be my main monitor for gaming, at least on shooters).

Anyone got any suggestions on which one's are good value for money, i don't have a huge amount to spend.

you are welcome to join the party, so far i am being fed this!

http://www.komplett.ie/Komplett/product/monitors/80003372/dell_24_u2412m_led_8ms_dp_vga_dvi/details.aspx


unfortunately i am little by little being taken over by it

TheAmateur

Figured this might be relevant. In my quest to buy a 120Hz monitor for under €200, I ended up buying this: Hanns G HS 233. Cost me €202.42 overall including shipping etc. Had to pay by bank transfer. It's due to arrive on Tuesday. I have absolutely no experience of the monitor or even the brand, and I could find very little info on it, except for a few reviews which seemed positive. I'll keep you guys posted on how it goes, although I won't be able to test it properly until I finish exams in mid-May.
Anyways, here's a list of 120Hz monitors which got posted around about a year ago (so there have been a few new ones since):

Acer GD245HQ 1920x1080
Acer GD235HZ 1920x1080
Acer GN245HQ 1920x1080
Acer HN274H 1920x1080
Alienware™ OptX™ AW2310 120Hz 1920x1080
ASUS VG236H 120 Hz 1920x1080
BenQ XL2410T 1920x1080
BenQ XL2420T 1920x1080
Hannstar HS233 1920x1080
I-O Data LCD-3D231XBR 1920x1080
Lenovo L2363dwA 1920x1080
LG W2363D 120 Hz 1920x1080
LG W2363DB 120 Hz 1920x1080
NEC F23W2A 1920x1080
Planar SA2311W 1920x1080
Samsung® SyncMaster 2233RZ 120 Hz 1680x1050
ViewSonic® FuHzion™ VX2265wm 120 Hz 1680x1050
ViewSonic FuHzion VX2268wm 120 Hz LCD display 1680x1050

A few of these, such as the LG W2363D or the BenQ XL2420T, seem to come highly regarded by gamers. My advice is keep an eye out for 2nd-hand ones for sale, as some of these are stupidly expensive new.

voojeq

yep but watch out for bleeding on those 120 Hz screens, I've had two already and both had really bad bleeding on the sides and corners, i had an acer and lg

120 Hz > 60 Hz

2-5ms unnoticeable

Tar.Aldarion

They don't make LG W2363D 120 Hz £D 1080p any more but try to get something similar. I have one here and it is amazing. was like 180e, got HD, 120hz and 3d which I think is a steal.


120 hz does make a difference, things are smoother. I don't think it is as much a difference as people say but it is a difference. Pro gamers swear by it, won't even play on less.

2,3 5,ms can't see it making much of a difference. What you really want is 0 input lag.

Skerries

I have that model as well and it is great
the only problem I have is when the light is flashing blue because I forgot to turn it off and it freaks me out when I wake up in the middle of the night

Tar.Aldarion

Haha I am always sure to turn that sucker off, I like the noise

TheMadMan697

I haven't used a 120Hz monitor but from what i hear its is much much smoother even on 2d desktop applications. I would not be worried about the 8 ms vs 2 ms thing to be honest. I think it makes next to no difference. I think Input lag would be more of an issue. If a screen has high input lag it will be useless for FPS games.

EDIT: Be careful with input lag on IPS panels. I have a HP LP2475w IPS panel and tftcentral.co.uk rated it as 24 ms input lag. When I compare it to my other TN panel side by side I can defiantly notice the delay. Using it normally I don't really notice it but I'm still aware that its there which bugs me.

glynf

TheAmateur wrote: »

Figured this might be relevant. In my quest to buy a 120Hz monitor for under €200, I ended up buying this: Hanns G HS 233. Cost me €202.42 overall including shipping etc. Had to pay by bank transfer. It's due to arrive on Tuesday. I have absolutely no experience of the monitor or even the brand, and I could find very little info on it, except for a few reviews which seemed positive. I'll keep you guys posted on how it goes, although I won't be able to test it properly until I finish exams in mid-May.
Anyways, here's a list of 120Hz monitors which got posted around about a year ago (so there have been a few new ones since):


A few of these, such as the LG W2363D or the BenQ XL2420T, seem to come highly regarded by gamers. My advice is keep an eye out for 2nd-hand ones for sale, as some of these are stupidly expensive new.

How did the HannG work out?

I'm keen to go 120 as well, and interested on what its like. Keep us posted.:)

TheAmateur

glynf wrote: »

How did the HannG work out?

I'm keen to go 120 as well, and interested on what its like. Keep us posted.:)

Well, tbh, technically I don't really know . It arrived fine, and seems fine, tested it via laptop HDMI but I can't test 120Hz from my laptop, as I only have HDMI and VGA out. I think DVI-D is the only interface which supports 120Hz (correct me if I'm wrong). I intend to build a desktop once I finish my exams, but I won't let myself do it before that , so at the moment the monitor's still in the box! If you're interested, the price on the site I ordered from has actually dropped another €40. Not sure why. With shipping, they cost €160 now, instead of €200, which sucks for me, as I could have waited until I was finished exams to buy the monitor as well! Oh well.

glynf

Thanks for the update, that monitor is a steal:eek:

DVI-D and Displayport do 120hz @ 1080, and HDMI 1.4a can do 120hz @ 720 i think..

Wise move holding off till the exams are over too:D gl with same.

TheAmateur

glynf wrote: »

Thanks for the update, that monitor is a steal:eek:

DVI-D and Displayport do 120hz @ 1080, and HDMI 1.4a can do 120hz @ 720 i think..

Wise move holding off till the exams are over too:D gl with same.

TY . There's surprisingly little info on the monitor anywhere, but here are a few reviews and threads. The monitor seems to go by a few different names (so does the company!); HannsG HS233, Hanns G. HS233, Hannstar HS233, HannsG HS233H3B.
thread on [h]ardforum
thread on pcmonitors.org
techradar review
itreviews review
numerique.fr review
pclab.pl half-review.
Some light reading

Tar.Aldarion

That is a great price! /steals bargain

Brian

I think Hannstar is a panel maker. The replacement LCD screen for my netbook had their name on it.

Tar.Aldarion

reviews look good, looks like a brilliant deal. 142e delivered. Thinking about it.

TheAmateur

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

reviews look good, looks like a brilliant deal. 142e delivered. Thinking about it.

Dunno about the €142, they charged me €31.98 for shipping and handling, and I only got that quote after I emailed them. In fact, we conducted the entire sale via email as European customers can only pay via bank transfer or cash-on-delivery. I opted for bank transfer as COD would have incurred an extra €20 charge (afair).

Tar.Aldarion

TheAmateur wrote: »

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

reviews look good, looks like a brilliant deal. 142e delivered. Thinking about it.

Dunno about the €142, they charged me €31.98 for shipping and handling, and I only got that quote after I emailed them. In fact, we conducted the entire sale via email as European customers can only pay via bank transfer or cash-on-delivery. I opted for bank transfer as COD would have incurred an extra €20 charge (afair).

Dunno, when I choose Ireland it says shipping is 12.50, weird

imitation

That hannsG is a nice bargain, didn't spot it when I was on my own crusade for a new monitor last week. I must have spent 5 hours trying to figure out the difference between active and passive 3d monitors and nvidias solution, ATI's solution and 3rd party solutions.

I must build a new PC this year (holding out for Ivy bridge) and I currently have an ATI 4870. I wasn't too keen on locking myself into having to get an Nvidia (DVI Dual link with its own custom pair of glasses) or ATI's solution (Display port only), because I would be forever more need to buy that brand if I wanted to keep 3d on the monitor. In the end I found a nice samsung that comes with the glasses but uses DVI Dual link with its own 3rd party 3D drivers. On top of that it supports 3d from the PS3/Blueray over HDMI, something many 120hz monitors do not actually support (especially the Nvidia 3d ones). Its the same panel as the higher end models apparently but uses DVI instead of display port.

I'm hoping for a big step up over my 4 year old samsung 220bw, people say the input lag, response times, color and 120hz are all good in it. Its also supposed to have better viewing angles than standard TN's. I'll be interested to see, my brother got a IPS panel and I have to admit its nice, but I think viewing angles and colour accuracy aren't going to make much difference compared to 120hz to me as a gamer. Many people are also saying now that the gap is starting to narrow as IPS monitors start get cheaper and TN improves in higher end gaming models.

Tar.Aldarion

Hey you can apply to get the vat back off that monitor from samsung at the mo! save yourself some money

imitation

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Hey you can apply to get the vat back off that monitor from samsung at the mo! save yourself some money

You my friend just changed this monitor from a bargain into a steal ! Thanks !!!!

Tar.Aldarion

Enjoy! where's my cut


Good monitor you picked, that or the hannsg would be great hmm.

BillyCom

Well imitation, that samsung monitor sure looks nice, was trying to decide what screen to get myself, but that looks much better value than the benq XL2420T (which doesnt include 3d glasses).

One question though, the samsung specs states it uses 44w, while the benq only uses 24w. Any idea why power consumption is so much higher?

Skerries