Pan Ams 2012 - Gentlemens Agreement

cowzerp

Chris89 wrote: »

Usually just two teammates are allowed per division, so as they can be seperated in the bracket and not have to fight each other til the final. Where they can choose to Contest the match or not.

The guys who dont understand this, are always the ones who do not compete regularly.

Who said I don't understand it? I do, I just disagree with the practise.

Funny thing is Bjj people are always going on about competing is the most important thing, winning secondary yet this is the opposite to that and anti competition.

Doug Cartel

Spideog Rua wrote: »

So it does happen in Judo

It happens extremely rarely and when it does there is a ****-storm and possible disciplinary action.

Also, what Makkikomi described (if I'm thinking of the same thing) was a teenager at a coloured belt grading, who had already done enough to get his belt not putting much effort into the rest of his fights leading to other people getting easy wins. That's a million miles form top competitors at a major competition not fighting because they don't feel like it.

EnjoyChoke

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I agree. It's not pleasant for anyone on the same team to compete against each other... however...

Surely the sport takes precedence over the feelings of teams and team mates? Potentially you could have every black belt weight division having an uncontested final in a single tournament. Imagine being the organisers trying to sell that sport to Nike or Powerade to enhance professionalism (which most of the top guys claim to want), or just a regular guy showing off the sport to his mate? You build towards a final and then... well, nothing.

Also I'm sure some Tennis schools might consider themselves a team too.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but in the context of an amateur sport I can understand and don't really have a problem with the practice. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't go on that much and can be very easily legislated for.

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

Funny thing is Bjj people are always going on about competing is the most important thing, winning secondary

I don't know what BJJ people you've been talking to Paul

Jason McCabe

I disagree with this

I have competed against teams mates many times in the past. Even once against a coach

At all our nogi comps we have boys from the team compete against each other

Now I would not let them fight MMA against each other (if head shots) and I have seen clubs do this in the past.

Think it's a bit different when you want to KO someone

SBG Ireland

i'm a bjj person. i've never said that

dont have a strong opinion on op...meh, up to the individual as far as im concerned.

darced

This post has been deleted.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Spideog Rua wrote: »

So it does happen in Judo and it's not against the rules. Similar to the way it can happen in BJJ. Strange the way some guys are high and mighty about it. As someone else said "The more you compete, the more you understand it".

It does?.

once I witnessed someone give a friend of his an easy fight, Doug knows the score.. There was a cluster f*ck of a storm over it. I

in the circumstanced related in the OP I've never seen of heard of someone refusing a fight in judo.

And I'm with Paul on this, if someone refuses to fight they should be DQ'd from the entire event.

Chris89

cowzerp wrote: »

Who said I don't understand it? I do, I just disagree with the practise.

Funny thing is Bjj people are always going on about competing is the most important thing, winning secondary yet this is the opposite to that and anti competition.

Came to that conclusion myself after you said they should not enter the same division, when infact two teammates CAN enter the same division and will be on opposite sides of the bracket so they wont meet til the final.

Who are these BJJ people?

SDTimeout

It's never happened me but I've entered the same division as guys from my team before. I would compete against them in first round ( second if it was a big tournament ) because I know someone representing my team is going forward regardless. In a finals situation I may be wary as like someone said before it's for no financial gain, you're getting a medal and at the expense of a gold medal you may alienate a training partner and friend.

Hopefully I never have to do it, and if my recent string of tournament performances continue, I won't have to :pac:

Doug Cartel

Chris89 wrote: »

Came to that conclusion myself after you said they should not enter the same division, when infact two teammates CAN enter the same division and will be on opposite sides of the bracket so they wont meet til the final.

There is a difference between "should" and "can".

Chris89

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There is a difference between "should" and "can".

There is also a difference between

- training every day, competing in jiu jitsu tournaments regularly and forming an opinion on this issue based on these experiences

and

- just posting online about what you think is right and wrong about a sport which i can only assume you dont even watch.

slammer187

They're not getting payed so I suppose they can do what they want, infact they're paying to compete

cowzerp

Chris89 wrote: »

Came to that conclusion myself after you said they should not enter the same division, when infact two teammates CAN enter the same division and will be on opposite sides of the bracket so they wont meet til the final.

Who are these BJJ people?

I'm talking about people on here,

When inexperienced lads ask should they be white belt or blue as there training certain time frames 13 months for example the experienced Bjj people on here regularly go on about doing the blue category as its the learning experience Been important etc, where in reality most 13 month lads have no hope at blue level and would not be near certs for winning the white categories anyway.

The not about winning was not the main point, and maybe worded wrong-whT I meant still stands- it's how the competition idea is always pushed on here while closing out divisions is anti competition in my opinion.

slammer187

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm talking about people on here,

When inexperienced lads ask should they be white belt or blue as there training certain time frames 13 months for example the experienced Bjj people on here regularly go on about doing the blue category as its the learning experience Been important etc, where in reality most 13 month lads have no hope at blue level and would not be near certs for winning the white categories anyway.

The not about winning was not the main point, and maybe worded wrong-whT I meant still stands- it's how the competition idea is always pushed on here while closing out divisions is anti competition in my opinion.

Suppose you attend competitions regularly and know all of the posters on here by name?....And you know their competition records?

cowzerp

slammer187 wrote: »

Suppose you attend competitions regularly and know all of the posters on here by name?....And you know their competition records?

I know most, attend most-compete now and again but competing Bjj is not high on my priorities, never was-if not for Mma I would never have looked at Bjj twice.

Regardless of that-that's irrelevant, I'm talking about Competition, not strictly Bjj, I don't see why Bjj should have competitors just deciding who wins when in most sports that would be laughed at, I've seen twin brothers fight in the boxing all Ireland final, I was in line to fight my cousin in a Leinster final only for he got beat in his semi-I would have gone all to win then knocked up to him the next day for a chat etc

I don't even think you need to compete in Bjj to have an opinion on should 2 lads who entered the same division should compete, hollow win in my opinion as you did not win the final.

When it happened Chris Bowe I thought it sucked too and was just unfair.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Burnt

Spideog Rua wrote: »

So it does happen in Judo and it's not against the rules. Similar to the way it can happen in BJJ. Strange the way some guys are high and mighty about it. As someone else said "The more you compete, the more you understand it".

In regards to judo, I've seen two guys from the same club arrange the result of a fight once in 10 years. They
were both disqualified on the spot and severe bollockings were handed out. It was a clusterfu*ck, the same
as Doug and Makkikomi state for the other contest, and within judo I'd say almost universally viewed as abhorrent.

If I'm up against a team mate I expect them to do me the courtesy of putting their all into it, and I'll do the same.
I have fought my team mates, guys I've trained with for years, many times. We shook hands walked out and went
at it hammer and tongs. Afterwards we shook hand and went for a few beers. To be honest they are the best, the
most memorable fights I've had, and I'd feel cheated any other way.

Chris89

Let me know when we start talking about jiu jitsu again.

Peetrik

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm talking about Competition, not strictly Bjj, I don't see why Bjj should have competitors just deciding who wins when in most sports that would be laughed at

I think it may not be a sport speific thing. I had thought it was simply a grappling vs striking differance but if yourself as an MMA coach would be fine with two of your fighters going full tilt at each other then obviously not. I don't mean that as a criticism, just supprised is all.

I'm still having trouble understanding how anyone can think that your going to be as motivated to help your fellow teammates achieve their maximum potential if your going to have to compete against them soon? Why share diet and weight cutting tips with someone when by not doing so could mean they have to sweat a bit more to make weight and be a bit slower when you fight them?
Why push them on pads when them being slightly less fit than you is to your advantage?
Surely your fellow club mates should be there to push you to be your best and correct your mistakes instead of watching you for flaws and making mental notes to hack at your leg if you pick up a knee injury near competiton time?

cowzerp

Peetrik wrote: »

I think it may not be a sport speific thing. I had thought it was simply a grappling vs striking differance but if yourself as an MMA coach would be fine with two of your fighters going full tilt at each other then obviously not. I don't mean that as a criticism, just supprised is all.

Good point, but the difference is my lads would not be pitted against each other in an Mma match as I would not enter them against each other, if Mma was done in a format like Bjj where 2 could enter then I'd simply get the lads at different weights/divisions

The reasoning for them not matching in Mma would be different than Bjj, remember it's a Bjj player and an Mma fighter-that sums it up for me.

Spideog Rua

cowzerp wrote: »

remember it's a Bjj player and an Mma fighter-that sums it up for me.

Do you even know who the guys that closed out the division are? The are far more than players, it's their life. In fact, they probably train harder than MMA fighters. They spend every day training closely with their team, making themselves and their training partners better. The guys saying that they would fight their brother/training partner in the Pan Ams finals really dont understand what going on, or what goes into making a BJJ champion.

As for the Judo guys outrage at closing out a division, L-O-fking-L. Sort out the massive problems in your own sport before looking to shoot down others.

Rob01

Spideog Rua wrote: »

The guys saying that they would fight their brother/training partner in the Pan Ams finals really dont understand what going on, or what goes into making a BJJ champion.

I never claimed to know what was going on which is why I posted the topic. Sure I didn't even know about the "only 2 competitors per weight class from the one team, both placed on either side of the bracket".

I wanted to gain an understanding of why it happens because, as I am today, I'd compete against anyone I know and have a few drinks with them after

From reading people's opinions, they obviously vary, and you can make a good argument either way or you can not care at all. But I understand it better now.

Cheers for the feedback people

cowzerp

Spideog Rua wrote: »

Do you even know who the guys that closed out the division are? The are far more than players, it's their life. In fact, they probably train harder than MMA fighters.

Can't say I do, I'm sure I could find out but won't change anything so wont waste my time-saying their players is not an insult, they're athletes and I'm well aware the training that goes into it, just like any sport at the top level

This just furthers my point that someone after all that should not even try win a match in fear of ego bruising, sure they tap their mates out all the time so what's the difference of its in competition-both in general know who's better anyway

I don't see why you'd take this opinion as an attack, and just because it's a well known thing to happen in the sport does not make it right either