Pan Ams 2012 - Gentlemens Agreement

Rob01

Hi just wondering why this happens?

From reading the results/reports on bloody elbow

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/4/1/2918577/ibjjf-pan-ams-finals-live-results-and-blog

2 finals, Heavyweight Final: Lucas Leite vs Yuri Simoes & Open-Weight Final: Antonio Carlos Jr vs Marcus Buchecha, were not contested because they are team-mates .

How is the winner decided?
and why don't they just compete like they would every day in training?

I'm relatively new to the sport (year and a half) and I just don't get this. I entered the Munster Open last year the same weight class as my brother & we just shook hands that morning and if we got drawn against each other so be it and best of luck to each other etc. Never happened in the end but we didn't see the problem if that's how the draw went.

Thanks

Rob

cowzerp

Personally I think you should be DQ'd for that-or don't enter in the same division.

Rob01

cowzerp wrote: »

Personally I think you should be DQ'd for that-or don't enter in the same division.

Sorry, DQ'd for what?

Doug Cartel

For not fighting. That's what would happen in a lot of other sports.

Barry.Oglesby

So I hate this as I think it makes a farce of the competition for people who don't know what's going on. I think the following would be good solutions:

1) eliminate 'guarding' in the first round if teams insist on doing the above. This means that team mates can face each other in match 1, and have their gentleman's agreement then.
2) Disqualify anyone who refuses to compete in a match. ie. if two team mates are contesting the final you can have a gold medalist but the other guy doesn't get silver, he just gets DQed.

I think if this happened then teams would either make tough choices instead of ruining the tournament as a spectacle, or only enter one competitor per weight division.

I can't think of another sport this happens in. That being said I don't think it's a good thing for team mates to be competing against each other either.

Having run tournaments for a few years now I can tell you that even at the novice level the same carry on is happening in Ireland.

Spideog Rua

Rob01 wrote: »

Hi just wondering why this happens?

From reading the results/reports on bloody elbow

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/4/1/2918577/ibjjf-pan-ams-finals-live-results-and-blog

2 finals, Heavyweight Final: Lucas Leite vs Yuri Simoes & Open-Weight Final: Antonio Carlos Jr vs Marcus Buchecha, were not contested because they are team-mates .

How is the winner decided?
and why don't they just compete like they would every day in training?

I'm relatively new to the sport (year and a half) and I just don't get this. I entered the Munster Open last year the same weight class as my brother & we just shook hands that morning and if we got drawn against each other so be it and best of luck to each other etc. Never happened in the end but we didn't see the problem if that's how the draw went.

Thanks

Rob

I dislike closing out of brackets as much as the next guy but we have to realise that this is the very top of the sport and not some local tournament. There is more at play.

These guys arent just team mates, they are training partners and know each others games inside and out. You wouldnt want to beat your training partner in the final on the Pans or Mundials knowing it might impact how they treat you in training.

Also, Buchecha busted up his finger badly against Kron so he could say he was too injured after winning his division to finish the absolute.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

For not fighting. That's what would happen in a lot of other sports.

There arent actually that many sports where team mates fight each other.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

So I hate this as I think it makes a farce of the competition for people who don't know what's going on. I think the following would be good solutions:

1) eliminate 'guarding' in the first round if teams insist on doing the above. This means that team mates can face each other in match 1, and have their gentleman's agreement then.
2) Disqualify anyone who refuses to compete in a match. ie. if two team mates are contesting the final you can have a gold medalist but the other guy doesn't get silver, he just gets DQed.

I think if this happened then teams would either make tough choices instead of ruining the tournament as a spectacle, or only enter one competitor per weight division.

I can't think of another sport this happens in. That being said I don't think it's a good thing for team mates to be competing against each other either.

Having run tournaments for a few years now I can tell you that even at the novice level the same carry on is happening in Ireland.

The sport isnt big enough for team to only enter one competitior per weight class. Closing out of brackets is actually hapening less and less due to some teams growing/regrowing and becoming competitive again eg GTF/Checkmat/Atos while the old dogs GB/Alliance are still hugely competitive.

Doug Cartel

Spideog Rua wrote: »

There arent actually that many sports where team mates fight each other.

You'd be kicked out of a judo tournament if you did it.

Doug Cartel

Also, could you imagine what would happen if Venus and Serena Williams decided not to play each other in a Grand Slam final?

pablohoney87

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Spideog Rua wrote: »

There arent actually that many sports where team mates fight each other.

You'd be kicked out of a judo tournament if you did it.

No you wouldnt. It still goes on just not nearly as much and is far more frowned upon.
i think it boils down to ego really though. Neither willing to hand bragging rights over or the top dog in the gym losing their status over the match.
Chris bowe had to give a buy to a brown belt in his gym in a nogi competition a while back didn't he? All because its what is done in the team.

Rob01

Spideog Rua wrote: »

I dislike closing out of brackets as much as the next guy but we have to realise that this is the very top of the sport and not some local tournament. There is more at play.

These guys arent just team mates, they are training partners and know each others games inside and out. You wouldnt want to beat your training partner in the final on the Pans or Mundials knowing it might impact how they treat you in training.

But is it not everyone's goal stepping onto the mat in a competition to become the Pan Am/Mundial champion? Will the results not now read "Lucas Leite 2012 Pan Ams Champion" I know I'd be sick if my name was that in the silver medal spot and I didn't even give it a shot for the gold

I'm of the mindset that I'm here to win and if I get beaten by a team-mate congratulations to him!

Doug Cartel

pablohoney87 wrote: »

No you wouldnt. It still goes on just not nearly as much and is far more frowned upon.

I thought this happened in a local competition a few years ago, but maybe it was a case of them going on the mat and one of them throwing the match.

Spideog Rua

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Also, could you imagine what would happen if Venus and Serena Williams decided not to play each other in a Grand Slam final?

Comparing apples and tomatoes.

Doug Cartel

Spideog Rua wrote: »

Comparing apples and tomatoes.

How so?

Spideog Rua

The goal of tennis isnt to make your opponent tap or score an ippon.

EnjoyChoke

The more I compete, the more I understand it. You want your team-mates to be part of your victory, they're the ones who helped get you there. BJJ, unlike tennis for example, is in many ways a team sport. It's much the same thing as MMA fighters from the same camp refusing to fight each other.

I've done both by the way. That is, compete against team-mates in a comp and close out a final.

Doug Cartel

Spideog Rua wrote: »

The goal of tennis isnt to make your opponent tap or score an ippon.

The objective of competing is to win. You don't want to compete, fine, don't go to a competition.

lukeyjudo

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Spideog Rua wrote: »

There arent actually that many sports where team mates fight each other.

You'd be kicked out of a judo tournament if you did it.

No you wouldnt. It still goes on just not nearly as much and is far more frowned upon.

Maybe in a Mickey mouse judo comp mate but officially at any international there ain't no closing out brackets/gentlemans agreement regardless of club mates or not and especially not at world level!

And super Especially if it's towards points for Olympic qualification.

Hell if you get choked unconscious in judo you get disqualified and aren't even allow medal regardless if you're for a silver medal or not.

I don't agree with it, but im not entirely against it. I've no strong opinions either way, it's just what goes on

I'd have no prob competing against a team mate or flipping a coin. Still be prepared for a few pints afterwards

Barry.Oglesby

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

The more I compete, the more I understand it. You want your team-mates to be part of your victory, they're the ones who helped get you there. BJJ, unlike tennis for example, is in many ways a team sport. It's much the same thing as MMA fighters from the same camp refusing to fight each other.

I've done both by the way. That is, compete against team-mates in a comp and close out a final.

I agree. It's not pleasant for anyone on the same team to compete against each other... however...

Surely the sport takes precedence over the feelings of teams and team mates? Potentially you could have every black belt weight division having an uncontested final in a single tournament. Imagine being the organisers trying to sell that sport to Nike or Powerade to enhance professionalism (which most of the top guys claim to want), or just a regular guy showing off the sport to his mate? You build towards a final and then... well, nothing.

Also I'm sure some Tennis schools might consider themselves a team too.

Peetrik

I'm sure its different from a grappling style competition but from a striking point of view I have to say I think its a very bad idea for clubmates to ever compete against each other. It can only cause rifts/division in clubs.

Clubmates should be correcting any flaws they see in you while training, not filing them away to memory should they ever have to compete against you.

As was said, clubmates shouldn't be competing in the same weight division, let the coach or the fighters decide beforehand or let the organisers only accept one entry per club for the weight cat.

Barry.Oglesby

Peetrik wrote: »

I'm sure its different from a grappling style competition but from a striking point of view I have to say I think its a very bad idea for clubmates to ever compete against each other. It can only cause rifts/division in clubs.

I don't think it's that different. The same relationship exists whether you're hitting them, trying to throw them, or trying to choke them.

I think it sucks but how do you avoid it? Only let 9 of your club (one per division) enter every tournament? You might have 20 guys wanting to compete. How would less experienced guys get competition experience? And it wouldn't be fair to not pick a strong, willing, competitor on the basis of blooding someone new.

Or would it? After all these are decisions made all the time in other team sports.

Chris89

cowzerp wrote: »

Personally I think you should be DQ'd for that-or don't enter in the same division.

Usually just two teammates are allowed per division, so as they can be seperated in the bracket and not have to fight each other til the final. Where they can choose to Contest the match or not.

The guys who dont understand this, are always the ones who do not compete regularly.

Clive

"Teammates" in BJJ is a nebulous term. It can encompass anything from people who train together all day everyday, to people who have trained together for a few squad sessions to people who have never met and just happen to be part of the same organisation.

I have and would happily move up, down, left or right to another division to avoid a club mate and try for a better spread of medals for the gym, but I would never, ever not compete against someone who was in my division. If someone closed out a division by bowing out against me, I wouldn't be accepting any medal since I didn't win it fairly in my view.

I'm not a particularly competitive person, and I don't think the only reason to enter a competition is to win, personally I compete because I enjoy it, win or lose. That said it's unfair to the other competitors who gave it their all if you're flipping a coin or even worse going by "seniority", it robs them of the chance to see where they honestly stand on the day.

I think it's unfair to compare grappling competitions with striking or MMA bouts, since they are matched beforehand and team mates not fighting doesn't affect anyone else or the event. It's more akin to a points kickboxing tournament with large divisions - I've never seen anyone bow out in one of those, but if they do, my feelings on it would be the same.

Chris89

Clive wrote: »

"Teammates" in BJJ is a nebulous term. It can encompass anything from people who train together all day everyday, to people who have trained together for a few squad sessions to people who have never met and just happen to be part of the same organisation.

I have and would happily move up, down, left or right to another division to avoid a club mate and try for a better spread of medals for the gym, but I would never, ever not compete against someone who was in my division. If someone closed out a division by bowing out against me, I wouldn't be accepting any medal since I didn't win it fairly in my view.

I'm not a particularly competitive person, and I don't think the only reason to enter a competition is to win, personally I compete because I enjoy it, win or lose. That said it's unfair to the other competitors who gave it their all if you're flipping a coin or even worse going by "seniority", it robs them of the chance to see where they honestly stand on the day.

I think it's unfair to compare grappling competitions with striking or MMA bouts, since they are matched beforehand and team mates not fighting doesn't affect anyone else or the event. It's more akin to a points kickboxing tournament with large divisions - I've never seen anyone bow out in one of those, but if they do, my feelings on it would be the same.

A very old fashioned opinion though, no?

Do you not like it because it ruins the spectacle or out of principle?

Peetrik

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think it sucks but how do you avoid it? Only let 9 of your club (one per division) enter every tournament? You might have 20 guys wanting to compete.

Ah ok, I hadn't realised it would be that many, we have maybe maximum 3 people at the same weight division and even then there is a fairly big experience gap between them. (again its striking so different ballgame perhaps)

Chris89 wrote: »

Usually just two teammates are allowed per division, so as they can be seperated in the bracket and not have to fight each other til the final. Where they can choose to Contest the match or not.

To me that sounds the fairest way to run it if there are that many from the same club who need the experience.

Maybe the organisers should decide a definite stance and be very clear about it before any registration or promotions are made for the event. Either way I'm sure smarter people than me have given it a lot of thought.

Kieran81

i hate it when guys dont fight in a final because they represent the same team , surely having two guys from the same team defeat all others to get to the final is the greatest most emphatic validation of how the team trains and in my opinion to have two guys battle it out 100% in a final should be the biggest contribution to a gym's reputation a competitor could give and reflects there superiority on that day and by fighting each other they're emphasising that they're the best , as opposed to closing out which to me always sends out a signal of worrying about your team mate exposing any holes in your game instead of displaying your game and having the confidence to say this is what we're about now try to beat us

Marcus.phelan

These guys are training with eachother every day 2/3 times a day trying helping eachother get to that level and they know eachothers games so well its just pointless. plus at the pan ams its not worth it for them cus they dont get any money or anything out of it, you wouldnt see this happen at ADCC or Abu dhabi pro(mendes bros even fought eachother last year)

Its hard to understand if your not in that situation anyway.

K.Byrne_BJJ

Marcus.phelan wrote: »

These guys are training with eachother every day 2/3 times a day trying helping eachother get to that level and they know eachothers games so well its just pointless.

Thats a good point that they would both known each others game, personally i think that would be exciting.

and if you think about it, if your always the one who gets tapped or usually doesn't do as well against a certain team mate who is better than you everyday in training and you both end up a final and decide to fight, if that one time you won in the final, surely its a great personal achievement and confidence boost because it shows your improving even though you could never do it before, no matter how many times you try'ed in the gym

bjj-fighter

I don't have a problem with competitors closing out division, I would be happy to get share a Gold or Silver with a friend who I had been training with. I don't think of it as a big problem in BJJ, I like the team aspect.

However, I'm not a big fan if it were to happen during one of the early rounds, which mean the teammate who lets the other one win gets nothing, and trained and paid to not even have a go to progress higher. It doesn't happen an awful lot due to the IBJJF policy of 2 per division, opposite sides of the bracket. I just don't particularly like it when it does happen.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I thought this happened in a local competition a few years ago, but maybe it was a case of them going on the mat and one of them throwing the match.

I've only ever heard of that happening at grading's, and seen it once. It sickened me at the time and I've distanced myself from that those two judoka (for those who don't know, in judo you fight for your blue, brown and black belts).

I've never heard of anything close to the OP happening in a judo competition.

Indeed I've fought club mates and very good friends in competition with absolutely no ill feelings.

Shake hands before and after the bout but when you step onto the step its time to look after business regardless who your opponent might be.

Doug Cartel

Alijah Witty Rhinestone wrote: »

Indeed I've fought club mates and very good friends in competition with absolutely no ill feelings.

I've done it loads in judo as well. It's just a game and I've never felt any ill feelings against anyone I've ever gone up against regardless if they are in my club or not. (Unless I thought they were pricks for reasons unrelated to judo, but that's a different story.)

Spideog Rua

So it does happen in Judo and it's not against the rules. Similar to the way it can happen in BJJ. Strange the way some guys are high and mighty about it. As someone else said "The more you compete, the more you understand it".