[Gear] - Deep Section Wheels

pgibbo

Let's base responses on the assumption that people are racing in Ireland.

I was wondering what logic people use for deciding what depth to go with on their wheels?

Does your FTP (assuming you use Power) have any bearing on the depth you should use?

Is a disc on the rear the best choice?

If not chosing a disc, how important is having differenet depths on the front and rear? A lot of people seem to use 20 or so deeper on the back than front. Does it matter?

Any other pointers or advice on going down this route?

I currently use TTR2 wheels which are 19.4mm deep. These came with my bike.

BTH

Interested in what the general thoughts on this are.

Personally, I bought a set of 50s for last season as they were very light and I was going a lot of hilly races, or very exposed races which were likely to be windy (Valentia, Lost Sheep, HOTW, BOTE, Brian Boru). Anything bigger would have been heavier or out of budget, and impossible to control in cross winds especially given my lack any weight!

Fazz

Currently race on 808's.
Just got a disc cover to fit and try out.

Regarding aero, I don't think a disc can be beaten overall.
Perhaps on most hilliest of course where weight costs too much but that's rare I'd say.

Regarding front being less deep, people only do this for comfort in windy conditions.
Example last year at Valentia I know a guy that raced on 808's. That was about as hairy and windy as its gonna get.
Kevin Keane had a wind induced fall on same course, possibly due to running his 808's but I can't confirm this as not sure what he used.

Not a lot in it for irish races id imagine so comes down to personal preference.
I mean, comparing same guy using 404 front vs 808 front on same oly course and day has gotta be talking what? All of 15seconds if that?


My opinion would be base it on personal preference, and try out if possible beforehand.
The new firecrest 404's are supposed to be similar aero as old 808's, but with none of the wind catching limitation.

If I was buying a set of wheels now, I'd seriously look at the Enve 6.5's.
Similar to 404 front and 808 rear and come with brake pads supposedly very good for carbon wheels. Not cheap though.

Hed seem better priced and just as good.




You're into the whole tub vs clincher debate after that.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Fazz let us know how you get on with the disc cover, considering going with one for Roth.

Fazz

Omari Attractive Tariff wrote: »

Fazz let us know how you get on with the disc cover, considering going with one for Roth.

Will do. Give me a week and I'll get back to you...

BennyMul

From what I recall (and cant remember the source sorry)

the front wheel is the one which generates the air turbulence so this is the one which should be a deep section; as said previously there comes a point where stability will\may be compromised due to cross winds.
The dept. of the back wheel is not as important due the wind over the frame and rider etc.
As for disc I believe unless it’s a very hilly route there is an advantage using one but are they worth the cost

The deepest I personally would go is 60mm, this is a nice compromise you get the advantage (slightly slower to accelerate however easier to maintain speed once there) and less impacted from cross winds making the bike more stable and allow you to be in the aero position longer.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

Let's base responses on the assumption that people are racing in Ireland.

I was wondering what logic people use for deciding what depth to go with on their wheels?

Does your FTP (assuming you use Power) have any bearing on the depth you should use?

Is a disc on the rear the best choice?

If not chosing a disc, how important is having differenet depths on the front and rear? A lot of people seem to use 20 or so deeper on the back than front. Does it matter?

Any other pointers or advice on going down this route?

I currently use TTR2 wheels which are 19.4mm deep. These came with my bike.

I think you could benefit from a deeper wheel.

I have a Zipp 404 front. (58mm)
I have a Zipp 404 rear (58mm too surprisingly)
I also have a Zipp 808 rear (81mm)
I also have a Zipp 900 disc

If I was going again from scratch I would get a pair of 808s and a wheel cover. Although the 606s are a nice comprise. Or Hed Jets. If a littler nervous on the bike I would limit the dept to about 50-60mm

A disc or wheel cover is practically always the best option.

Go deep section and get a wheel cover.

pgibbo

tunney wrote: »

I think you could benefit from a deeper wheel.

I have a Zipp 404 front. (58mm)
I have a Zipp 404 rear (58mm too surprisingly)
I also have a Zipp 808 rear (81mm)
I also have a Zipp 900 disc

If I was going again from scratch I would get a pair of 808s and a wheel cover. Although the 606s are a nice comprise. Or Hed Jets. If a littler nervous on the bike I would limit the dept to about 50-60mm

A disc or wheel cover is practically always the best option.

Go deep section and get a wheel cover.

Cheers Dave. I'm saving hard!

Thankfully catweazle is going to let me borrow his SRAM S80s for a few races so that will give me a feel for deep sections.

El Director

Well I ride these, 84mm rear and front. As you can see P there is currently a nice sale going on there, 50% off! I don't hear many speak of nor do I see many but for me - I love them. I only race in them and going from training wheels to these really feels great, they definitely make a difference. First time on them yes a cross wind almost flattened me by I got used to it and I have no problem since. Now that I'm 10kg or so lighter it may be a problem :rolleyes:

I was lucky, a guy with more money than sense let them go for €500 even though he only raced ten times on them! So basically if you went for those babies at €480 and the wheel covers as described by Fazz you are looking at 3 wheels for €630 - two deep section and one disc

mloc123

I bought a wheel cover last year, worked put fine. Tape it onto the rim instead of using the fixings and it sounds better

May be interested in a group order as I need one for a 60mm rim now.

El Director

mloc123 wrote: »

I bought a wheel cover last year, worked put fine. Tape it onto the rim instead of using the fixings and it sounds better

May be interested in a group order as I need one for a 60mm rim now.

Mmmmm.....me too.....going to do a little more research first.

Bambaata

How much would they work out at with the customs charges if got on group order? Might be interested too

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Also interested in group order.

catweazle

pgibbo wrote: »

Thankfully catweazle is going to let me borrow his SRAM S80s for a few races so that will give me a feel for deep sections.

Call over whenever you want them, they are only gathering dust in my attic at the moment. I will stick them on for a few of the Tri Lakes TT's hopefully but that's about it for the next while

mloc123

Bambaata wrote: »

How much would they work out at with the customs charges if got on group order? Might be interested too

Customs was 21e on top of mine last year.

El Director

Fazz is testing it out this weekend so perhaps if he doesn't mind he will report back here?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Fair play Mloc for stepping up to look after the order....push/shove to the front

mloc123

Shipping on one cover is $49 and $123 on five.

5 covers inc. shipping = 435e or 87e each + possible duty/VAT

Duty and Vat is 27.7% combined on the 435e so it would be an extra 120e or 24e/cover.

shotgunmcos

Sorry lads may have missed it but are ye talking about covers for specific wheels or do they fit all 50-80mm?

mloc123

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Sorry lads may have missed it but are ye talking about covers for specific wheels or do they fit all 50-80mm?

You specify the rim and hub and they cut them to measure.

shotgunmcos

mloc123 wrote: »

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Sorry lads may have missed it but are ye talking about covers for specific wheels or do they fit all 50-80mm?

You specify the rim and hub and they cut them to measure.

Even on a 50mm? Benefits ?

mloc123

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Even on a 50mm? Benefits ?

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/aerodisc-data.html

You get a disc for 100e

shotgunmcos

Im in

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Im in

+1

mloc123

okay, I don't mind putting the order in.. I will probably need money off people upfront for the order. If we get a finalised list I'll work out prices.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Cheers Mloc, of course money up front.

Disc cover list
Shotgunmcos
Jackyback
Mloc123 (i assume you are ordering one?)

Bambaata

Disc cover list
Shotgunmcos
Jackyback
Mloc123 (i assume you are ordering one?)
Bambaata

zico10

If I was still in Ireland, I'd definitely be interested in a disc cover, but I'm not so....

But just so as my post is not completely useless, posters here might find the following article of interest.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=bXBzdHJhaW5pbmcuY29tfHNlcnZpY2VzfGd4OjQ1MDkyNTAzMWNjYTViNjY

Fazz

zico10 wrote: »

If I was still in Ireland, I'd definitely be interested in a disc cover, but I'm not so....

But just so as my post is not completely useless, posters here might find the following article of interest.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=bXBzdHJhaW5pbmcuY29tfHNlcnZpY2VzfGd4OjQ1MDkyNTAzMWNjYTViNjY

Now that is interesting indeed.
So I should see it easier to handle going from a pair of 808's to a disc cover rear.
Will find out soon!
That settles it for Valentia then, sticking with same race setup all season so!

El Director

Disc cover list
Shotgunmcos
Jackyback
Mloc123 (i assume you are ordering one?)
Bambaata
El Director

shotgunmcos

Disc cover list
Shotgunmcos
Jackyback
Mloc123 (i assume you are ordering one?)
Bambaata
El Director

I'm out. Shame. I researched and found they don't do em for Shimano's, specifically the 50mm DA

Ah well...

Rawhead

Would I be correct in guessing that most athletes would be better off losing a few kgs than spending huge money on wheels. I'm not being factious, but surely unless your at perfect weight and everything else is in good order then expensive wheels won't make a whole lot of difference. I ask this as someone with a good bike with stock wheels but still about 5/6kg overweight.
(If spending the money on wheels alleviates my need to lose those few kgs then I'll rob a post office to get the loot).
Is a power meter not a better investment for the majority of people?

El Director

Rawhead wrote: »

Would I be correct in guessing that most athletes would be better off losing a few kgs than spending huge money on wheels. I'm not being factious, but surely unless your at perfect weight and everything else is in good order then expensive wheels won't make a whole lot of difference. I ask this as someone with a good bike with stock wheels but still about 5/6kg overweight.
(If spending the money on wheels alleviates my need to lose those few kgs then I'll rob a post office to get the loot).
Is a power meter not a better investment for the majority of people?

I think you are right but it's a personal question and everybody has to answer it for themselves, weather they are willing to post their personal answers here or not...again a personal thing. So personally, I am practically at race weight (I think) after dropping 10kg over the winter and still 55 odd days to A race, hence the reason I was quick to answer this question

For me a disc wheel at c.€120 vs a power meter at c.€1000+? Well I know which I can afford right now. Money no option then yes I would power meter my bike up first.

mloc123

El Director wrote: »

Rawhead wrote: »

Would I be correct in guessing that most athletes would be better off losing a few kgs than spending huge money on wheels. I'm not being factious, but surely unless your at perfect weight and everything else is in good order then expensive wheels won't make a whole lot of difference. I ask this as someone with a good bike with stock wheels but still about 5/6kg overweight.
(If spending the money on wheels alleviates my need to lose those few kgs then I'll rob a post office to get the loot).
Is a power meter not a better investment for the majority of people?

I think you are right but it's a personal question and everybody has to answer it for themselves, weather they are willing to post their personal answers here or not...again a personal thing. So personally, I am practically at race weight (I think) after dropping 10kg over the winter and still 55 odd days to A race, hence the reason I was quick to answer this question

For me a disc wheel at c.€120 vs a power meter at c.€1000+? Well I know which I can afford right now. Money no option then yes I would power meter my bike up first.

It's too late in the season to buy a power meter, where as buying wheels = buying speed. On a flat course aero beats weight.

All that said... I would spend a grand on power before I'd spend a grand on wheels.

Rawhead

I wasn't on about those race wheel covers but the zipp yokes that cost nearly a grand. I was genuinely asking whether wheels make a huge difference. I'm new to the game and only learning. I have a Felt B16 with standard wheels and what would the gains on a HIM be with a pair zipps? I'm not having a pop at people with the money to spend but surely unless your at your ideal race weight then the first and cheapest step would be to lose weight.

big mce

Rawhead wrote: »

I wasn't on about those race wheel covers but the zipp yokes that cost nearly a grand. I was genuinely asking whether wheels make a huge difference. I'm new to the game and only learning. I have a Felt B16 with standard wheels and what would the gains on a HIM be with a pair zipps? I'm not having a pop at people with the money to spend but surely unless your at your ideal race weight then the first and cheapest step would be to lose weight.

Has anyone done their own testing with new wheels and covers, ie do a 20k tt with stock wheels and then try with new bling wheels. I know it's all over the net that bling is faster but I'm interested in real people doing real tests. I was amazed at the difference recently when I bought the tt bike versus the road bike, definitely 2 mins over a 20k tt, but I don't know if I'll gain that much more with lighter aero wheels. The stock wheels on my tt bike are aluminium but are deep sections?

zico10

Just buying better wheels will make anyone go faster, whether overweight or not. The same cannot be said for just buying a power meter. You still need to learn how to train with it and use it correctly. And don't forget it's still possible to train hard and effectively without a power meter.

I spent €1,550 on two Zipp wheels back in the day. I never seriously looked into investing in a power meter, but I know they can go for similar prices. I don't think you're going to save a whole lot by buying one over the other. Admittedly I know next to nothing about training by power, but if it's a straight up choice between buying wheels or a power meter, the wheels would definitely be my recommendation.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

zico10 wrote: »

Just buying better wheels will make anyone go faster, whether overweight or not. The same cannot be said for just buying a power meter. You still need to learn how to train with it and use it correctly. And don't forget it's still possible to train hard and effectively without a power meter.

I spent €1,550 on two Zipp wheels back in the day. I never seriously looked into investing in a power meter, but I know they can go for similar prices. I don't think you're going to save a whole lot by buying one over the other. Admittedly I know next to nothing about training by power, but if it's a straight up choice between buying wheels or a power meter, the wheels would definitely be my recommendation.

I would disagree from personal experience, power meter if used & trained with properly will garner bigger improvements. All about the engine and less about the bling:) 1k on wheels or 1k on power meter it would be the power meter all day long....my missus would probably say I would buy both though

Bambaata

Power power power! Having converted to the power side of things a few months back i cant recommend it enough! I do however have a set of Zipps but even still had i a choice of power v Zipps id go power. I'm enjoying training so much more this year having a power meter. Last year i had so many long bikes that i really real;ly hated and did question why i was doing the sport! There were days when i felt like i was toast and couldn't get HR up to where i wanted it and it really played on then mind. Id be in a stinker of a mood for days after. Whereas this year i forget completely about HR as its virtually useless to train with on the bike. Today for instance i was only in the 130's pushing my HIM power whereas im normally in the 140s. Reason for this i believe is i have a minor cold. Had this been last year id be in a foul humor now thinking i didn't hit my targets when in fact i actually surpassed them, by a lot!

That said a coach would be number 1! A coach who knows everything about power who you can trust completely is a bonus ;-) Its really for the training benefit. On the day ill ride as i see fit with just the odd check on power. Also the longer you go the more important pacing becomes. For a sprint i don't care about power. It just motivates me to keep consistent and not have any drop offs below what i know im capable of. Oly would be the same, HIM you get to know a range to stay within at least but then IM you need to pace it close and pay attention to those numbers (not that i know from experience on this distance).

Fazz

El Director wrote: »

Fazz is testing it out this weekend so perhaps if he doesn't mind he will report back here?

Ok, did a stint today on race setup with disc cover.

Not the windiest but there were a few crosswinds which actually seemed easier to handle. May be that the winds were not strong by comparison to previous but either way pretty impressed.
In terms of performance gains, too hard to judge to be honest. I did a couple of 20min pacey stints and was flying but that's just the engine LOL
Had a tail wind going down and no issue and flew, headwind coming back and that's where a couple of crosswinds came but seemed easier to balance bike. Like I was leaning more instead of getting the front wheel moved easier from under me.
Now could be the placebo effect and also the psychological effect but from reading that article about needing more cover on the rear to handle a deep dish front it really did feel like that.
Back out tomorrow for a longer stint and more varied roads so hopefully be a better test and yield similar results.

Good signs so far.

mloc123

In my experience, a 60mm front wheel is more problematic in winds than a disc cover is.

Fazz

mloc123 wrote: »

In my experience, a 60mm front wheel is more problematic in winds than a disc cover is.

Makes sense, however I'm referring to this article posted by Zico the other day
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...TAzMWNjYTViNjY

I'm running an 81mm front wheel, but instead of 81mm rear it's now a disc covered rear.
And for some reason it seems to have helped and provided more stability than just the 2 x 81mm's.
I was out last week on the same roads with the 2 x 81mm's for comparison.
Will see tomorrow but the article seems to be relevant so far.

El Director

Bambaata wrote: »

....... i forget completely about HR as its virtually useless to train with on the bike....

Jeez thanks Bambaata...now I feel my ride today was totally pointless...way to bring me down dude.....:( (;))

a BIG +1 on the coaching :cool:

mloc123

El Director wrote: »

Jeez thanks Bambaata...now I feel my ride today was totally pointless...way to bring me down dude.....:( (;))

a BIG +1 on the coaching :cool:

Looks like you need a PM, all the cool kids have them.. I'm so cool I have two :cool:

Now I just need some power to back them up.

El Director

mloc123 wrote: »

Looks like you need a PM, all the cool kids have them.. I'm so cool I have two :cool:

Now I just need some power to back them up.

Well a PM would you believe is two years aways in my SUPER BIKE BUILD plan...may have to rethink that one, reason being-I won't be HIM racing again for 2 years and I feel like Bambaata that power is more important the longer the race distance. In saying all that.....if a man was looking for a buyer of a spare PM....I might know someone interested....although he is so broke right now he can't even afford to pay attention:cool:! Shall I get my jacket??

zico10

Omari Attractive Tariff wrote: »

I would disagree from personal experience, power meter if used & trained with properly will garner bigger improvements. All about the engine and less about the bling:) 1k on wheels or 1k on power meter it would be the power meter all day long

Bambaata wrote: »

Power power power! Having converted to the power side of things a few months back i cant recommend it enough! I do however have a set of Zipps but even still had i a choice of power v Zipps id go power.

The two of you obviously have both fancy wheels and a PM, so I'll ask you, if it came down to it, on race day itself which would you go without?
Bear in mind you'd be going out on sh!t €150 wheels. I'm not trying to say training by power is a waste of time, but you both seem to be forgetting the benefit deep rim wheels provide.

Bambaata

Thats a hard one to answer truthfully but the real clincher for power is training with it. If i had a choice of training with power for months in advance of the event or race wheels for the day id go with power if that meant racing on bog standard wheels. Its really the hours and hours spent beforehand that count. And i do all that training on such wheels

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Power meter is very useful on long course so I would choose it. OLY and below I would choose race wheels. But as Bambatta puts it, it's all about the work you do leading up to your race.

zico10

Genuine questions, how much of your power output will be spent turning the non aero wheels? I think it's only Jackyback training for an IM, but if you were to put a time to it, how many minutes do you think the PM is going to give you over 180km?

I've no doubt a power meter is a wonderful training aid, and you both say the benefits of the PM are to be gained during training in the build up to your race. But it's hardly a case that it enables you to train for longer than the guy who doesn't have one.

Let's take the hypothetical situation of two athletes, of similar abilities, who have trained for an ironman. One has a PM, one has bling wheels. When it comes to race day they'll have both put in similar hours on the bike, one might have trained smarter, but the other guy's aero wheels are going to give him free speed, your PM will not. How much of a time benefit this free speed will amount to I don't know, but it definitely puts the guy without the aero wheels at a disadvantage.

Bambaata

If of similar ability starting out the guy who trained with a PM is going to be a stronger biker on the day and hence also have more for the run.

Also a PM can be got for a lot less than bling wheels. You can get a Power2Max and have €500-700 for decent wheels for the price of a set of Zipps. Sure you'd prob pick up a second hand pair of Zipps for that

Im not all that up on the science on all this but i know from experience that training with a power meter is far superior than without. Thats as long as its used correctly but thats where coach comes into his own

Fazz

Fazz wrote: »

Ok, did a stint today on race setup with disc cover.

Not the windiest but there were a few crosswinds which actually seemed easier to handle. May be that the winds were not strong by comparison to previous but either way pretty impressed.
In terms of performance gains, too hard to judge to be honest. I did a couple of 20min pacey stints and was flying but that's just the engine LOL
Had a tail wind going down and no issue and flew, headwind coming back and that's where a couple of crosswinds came but seemed easier to balance bike. Like I was leaning more instead of getting the front wheel moved easier from under me.
Now could be the placebo effect and also the psychological effect but from reading that article about needing more cover on the rear to handle a deep dish front it really did feel like that.
Back out tomorrow for a longer stint and more varied roads so hopefully be a better test and yield similar results.

Good signs so far.

Ok followed up today with another decent stint including hills, N11 down and backs, road from N11 at Kilmacanogue to Roundwood - anyone that knows this will be well used to the cross winds once you climb the hill.
I went out and back this also.

Now today wasn't the windiest, but did have a few gusts and constant blowing of some form.

Happy to report Disc cover was no issue at all. Felt fast, and if anything when I did get a cross wind it seemed to help stabilise things.
Hard to explain, could be down to cross winds not being as strong as I've experienced before but I didn't get thrown around at all.

Almost felt like when the front was getting a gust, the rear would then come into play and help stabilise the whole bike causing me more to just lean into wind rather than full on turn adjustment of front wheel.

This will be my race setup for all races this season until I experience otherwise.

Again, it's impossible to compare to previous days when I've experienced a lot worse gusts moving me on shallower wheels, but on todays experience, I loved it.
Until I experience otherwise I have to say this was superb and recommend it to all.

Disclaimer - could be related to lower winds than normal but didn't feel like it.
Make your own decision and do not come blaming me

PS Disc noise is in effect also!