Yes Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool are done. MOD POST #425 *ALL READ*

LuckyLloyd

rarnes1 wrote: »

So 5th and no trophies, or 7/8th with one trophy and 90 mins away from another?

Tough one that

Really? Sure Everton are a better club than ye now, a one off cup match can't change that. League table doesn't lie you know.

Nalz

kryogen wrote: »

If Liverpool go on to win two cups, and finish poorly in the table (outside European places) it will also be a positive step forward.

In fairness, you could twist both points and put a negative slant or positive one on it. They spent a lot, have been searching for a league title for over 20 years, brought to penalties vs a championship in the league cup final and could have lost, they haven't won the fa cup yet. So there is a chance Liverpool could finish 9th or 10th in the league without having a european campaign and got very lucky in a carling cup final against Cardiff.

On the other hand everything is rosey and lets all rejoice in two trophies, European qualification, strengthen the squad in the summer and build on the league form which wasn't cared about for the last month or so.

We all know that Liverpool have been nowhere near good enough this season and the majority of new signings have not produced. Who's to blame for that? Do they need more time?

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Really? Sure Everton are a better club than ye now, a one off cup match can't change that. League table doesn't lie you know.

Maybe we could exchange our final spot for their league position?

mike65

Newcastle have had a tremenjeous season regardless of what happens now. They have overachieved, Liverpool have underachieved even with two cup finals, even with two cups.

Will I Amnt

Morzadec wrote: »

Question for those who are very anti-Kenny:

If Liverpool were having a season like Newcastle, (no cup runs but challenging for 4th) and ultimately failed to get Champions League, finishing 5th or 6th, would you think it's been as bad a season?

Of the 2 realistic trophies we have had a chance of winning, we've won one and are in the final of another.

The League form has been very disappointing, and to not even challenge for 4th is definitely a failure, but you'd swear some people think the league is the be all and end all. 'The League table is the only true barometer of where you are as a club'. I've heard this type of line peddled a few times. So United's poor Cup runs get ignored as do Liverpool's good cup runs. Convenient

It's all relevant to the club you're talking about.
At the start of the season staying in the league would have been seen as progress for Newcastle,they have massively overachieved and therefore any top 10 place and 2 cups would also have been massively overachieving.

Liverpool have massively underachieved in the league but been excellent in the cups.
Is it progress?
In a way yes and in a way no.
It's progress in that there's a chance of finishing the season with 2 cups.
On the other hand the club are even further away from where they want to be and where the owners and a lot of fans expected to be.

Edit:Same view as Mike......should I be worried?

Nalz

rarnes1 wrote: »

Maybe we could exchange our final spot for their league position?

Ye maybe you could? Why don't you ask them? I think you should.

Hi

Paparazzo

Morzadec wrote: »

Question for those who are very anti-Kenny:

If Liverpool were having a season like Newcastle, (no cup runs but challenging for 4th) and ultimately failed to get Champions League, finishing 5th or 6th, would you think it's been as bad a season?

Of the 2 realistic trophies we have had a chance of winning, we've won one and are in the final of another.

The League form has been very disappointing, and to not even challenge for 4th is definitely a failure, but you'd swear some people think the league is the be all and end all. 'The League table is the only true barometer of where you are as a club'. I've heard this type of line peddled a few times. So United's poor Cup runs get ignored as do Liverpool's good cup runs. Convenient

2 years ago newcastle were in the championship. That's why their season is considered succesful.

Morzadec

Maybe I didn't make it clear, I was just using Newcastle's season as an example not Newcastle the club. (i.e. a team that have had no cup run but is challenging for 4th). Newcastle have obviously done incredibly well, they could lose every match now 5-0 until the end of the season and still have had a great season. And a much better one than Liverpool considering expectations.

I'm just saying that perhaps if Liverpool had failed in the cups but were still challenging for 4th in the league this thread might not exist, which I think is strange.

And of course United's season is a success if they win the league despite the cup failures.

kryogen

Its simply because league position is more highly rated then cup competitions, domestically certainly, which is right imo over the course of a season to judge a team, but you give a fan the choice of finishing 5th and no trophy or 8th and the FA cup and Im sure they would pick 8th and the cup, still gets you into Europe, but the Champions League is the holy grail for clubs, this is not just from fans. All the clubs are desperate to get into the CL and to get the money that comes with that.

It was Liverpools stated ambition from the owner wasnt it? Thats why its relevant, if they were in 4th then Kenny would be on target to fulfill the owners demands. The thread would not be in any way relevant

Sgt Pepper 64

kryogen wrote: »

Its simply because league position is more highly rated then cup competitions, domestically certainly, which is right imo over the course of a season to judge a team, but you give a fan the choice of finishing 5th and no trophy or 8th and the FA cup and Im sure they would pick 8th and the cup, still gets you into Europe, but the Champions League is the holy grail for clubs, this is not just from fans. All the clubs are desperate to get into the CL and to get the money that comes with that.

It was Liverpools stated ambition from the owner wasnt it? Thats why its relevant, if they were in 4th then Kenny would be on target to fulfill the owners demands. The thread would not be in any way relevant

Agreed. The cups are just a random chance thing rather than the more consistant measure of the league, which every team aims to do well in at the start of the season.
Teams like Liverpool would have had a target of "finish 4th or higher", not "win the carling cup" as a priority. Cups are icing, not the cake

Paparazzo

Morzadec wrote: »

Maybe I didn't make it clear, I was just using Newcastle's season as an example not Newcastle the club. (i.e. a team that have had no cup run but is challenging for 4th). Newcastle have obviously done incredibly well, they could lose every match now 5-0 until the end of the season and still have had a great season. And a much better one than Liverpool considering expectations.

I'm just saying that perhaps if Liverpool had failed in the cups but were still challenging for 4th in the league this thread might not exist, which I think is strange.

And of course United's season is a success if they win the league despite the cup failures.

Ah right. Read that wrong.
I think liverpool were expecting to have a season similar to newcastles. But what season would I prefer if I was a pool fan? I don't know tbh. If liverpool lose the cup final and newcastle finish 5th, I definitely think newcastle. If newcastle finish 5th and liverpool win the fa cup, then liverpool. If liverpool win the cup and newcastle finish 4th, then newcastle.

Will I Amnt

So,question for those of you who are pro-Kenny.
Would you give up the Carling cup and your place in the final of the FA cup to swap places with either Newcastle or Tottenham?

LuckyLloyd

cambo2008 wrote: »

So,question for those of you who are pro-Kenny.
Would you give up the Carling cup and your place in the final of the FA cup to swap places with either Newcastle or Tottenham?

Nope. I am satisfied that our medium term prospects are superior to both those clubs tbh.

Morzadec

cambo2008 wrote: »

So,question for those of you who are pro-Kenny.
Would you give up the Carling cup and your place in the final of the FA cup to swap places with either Newcastle or Tottenham?

Hmm borderline decision...Probably would swap places with Spurs yeah. They have a nice run of fixtures and will probably take 4th. They have a better chance of 4th than us winning the FA Cup.


By the way I wouldn't say I'm pro-Kenny as such...The league form has been very disappointing but as I said, we could only realistically win 2 trophies this year and we could win both.

I'm kind of on the fence, but I don't think he's as bad as many are making out.

Also the only people whose opinions matter are the owners. You could say they would be very disappointed with the league form and signings, but having trimmed a lot of wages and taken in money as well as spent, they really haven't invested all that much into the club. I'm sure they would be happy with 2 cups, and we can still reach a points tally where we can at least say we haven't regressed in the league.

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nope. I am satisfied that our medium term prospects are superior to both those clubs tbh.

In what way are they superior?

LuckyLloyd

cambo2008 wrote: »

In what way are they superior?

Financially

Dubit10

cambo2008 wrote: »

So,question for those of you who are pro-Kenny.
Would you give up the Carling cup and your place in the final of the FA cup to swap places with either Newcastle or Tottenham?

No chance.

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Financially

You sure love your teams bank balance
My question was would you swap positions nothing to do with finances.
Take the question again and you still have your kit deal etc.

LuckyLloyd

cambo2008 wrote: »

You sure love your teams bank balance
My question was would you swap positions nothing to do with finances.
Take the question again and you still have your kit deal etc.

I wouldn't swap positions from a competitive perspective as I (and others) have already noted a couple of times on this thread. Winning trophies is where it is at imo.

And in terms of the overall position of the clubs, we have a basic platform to build off. If Spurs don't reverse their current form quickly, they could have a very tough summer indeed.

Newcastle have done extraordinarily well, but it remains to be seen whether form can be maintained and if the club can continue to invest in the squad or find undervalued gems.

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I wouldn't swap positions from a competitive perspective as I (and others) have already noted a couple of times on this thread. Winning trophies is where it is at imo.

And in terms of the overall position of the clubs, finances come into it in a huge way and we are in a solid position. If Spurs don't reverse their current form quickly, they could have a very tough summer indeed.

Look,fair enough you have got back among the silverware,that's obviously a good thing but I would say you are in a minority of Liverpool fans that have the view you do.
Winning trophies is not just where it's at.
You couldn't really be happy to win the Carling Cup year after year while finishing outside the top 4.

Dubit10

cambo2008 wrote: »

You sure love your teams bank balance
My question was would you swap positions nothing to do with finances.
Take the question again and you still have your kit deal etc.

Hey watch it now, that kit deal is like a trophy and should'nt be scoffed at.;)

SlickRic

cambo2008 wrote: »

You couldn't really be happy to win the Carling Cup year after year while finishing outside the top 4.

i'm not a Kenny apologist or anything, but i don't think ANYONE is happy with the above scenario.

but in the interim, getting a trophy or 2 on the way to the top 4 is very welcome.

for me, it won't save Kenny his job, but i will take it over being 5th and no trophies. because of the modern game, and the financial rewards, a manager at a club like Liverpool has to be judged primarily on his league form.

the owners will be ruthless if needs be, so we'll see what they think when the time comes.

but in the interim, getting a trophy or 2 on the way to the top 4 is very welcome.

My feelings exactly.

I'd be suprised if Kenny was let go if we win the FA cup too, shocked actually.

Will I Amnt

SlickRic wrote: »

cambo2008 wrote: »

You couldn't really be happy to win the Carling Cup year after year while finishing outside the top 4.

i'm not a Kenny apologist or anything, but i don't think ANYONE is happy with the above scenario.

but in the interim, getting a trophy or 2 on the way to the top 4 is very welcome.

for me, it won't save Kenny his job, but i will take it over being 5th and no trophies. because of the modern game, and the financial rewards, a manager at a club like Liverpool has to be judged primarily on his league form.

the owners will be ruthless if needs be, so we'll see what they think when the time comes.

I agree,I'm curious to know if LL does.

LuckyLloyd

Curious to know what? How many times do I need to write it ITT?

I am interested in winning things (league included obviously!). As such, I would prefer to win things this year than scrape fourth in the CL when we would have little or no chance of competing in it the following season.

I believe we will get back into the CL soon enough, and back in such a way that we'll be giving teams a rattle at the business end of it. But for now, we are getting to the final stage of what is possible for us to win (not taking Chelsea for granted mind), and that will do nicely for now.

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Curious to know what? How many times do I need to write it ITT?

Curious to know if you were happy to finish the next few seasons in a similar fashion to this,where winning trophies is where it's at and 5th-10th place doesn't really matter.

I get it,you're not.
From your other posts it seemed you were.

Nalz

SlickRic wrote: »

i'm not a Kenny apologist or anything, but i don't think ANYONE is happy with the above scenario.

but in the interim, getting a trophy or 2 on the way to the top 4 is very welcome.

for me, it won't save Kenny his job, but i will take it over being 5th and no trophies. because of the modern game, and the financial rewards, a manager at a club like Liverpool has to be judged primarily on his league form.

the owners will be ruthless if needs be, so we'll see what they think when the time comes.

^ = SENSE

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

CSF

Aquila wrote: »

After todays game,will the board decide enough is enough?or will they wait till after the cup final?or will Kenny be given the chance to bring Liverpool up another level?

He won't be going anywhere til after the final. That's pretty much definite.

Sgt Pepper 64

I think that when Kenny took the job, his plan was to get Liverpool back into the top 4, get the squad into reasonable shape for the future and any cups\cup finals would be extra trimmings.
All the time with one eye on the future and to help identify a good manager to hand over to.
I certainly dont think he ever thought he would be doing it very long term, ie 2/3 years at the most
I think he does suffer from burn out with all the expectation